Over/under crank with the Flash/Nano
 

Dear Dan,

Please let us know whether we can expect an upgrade which will enable over/under crank with the Flash XDR any time soon. I believe it was on the agenda quite a while ago.

Thanks,
Ofer
Ofer Levy Photography

Dear Ofer,

We are scheduled to release an interim release within 10 days or so.

Over and under-cranking is scheduled for the next full release. This is scheduled for near the end of October.

Fantastic news Dan!! Thank you!
Regards,
Ofer

Wow ! Over and Under Cranking !
 

....Over and under cranking ! S W E E T ! :-) :-) :-)

Over and undercranking would be amazing. The technology you guys have cramed into this little box is nuts.

Any details on how this function would work? What kinda of input/camera/settings would you need to set for the Nano to find the signals?

There a numerous cheaper consumer level cameras that feature pretty good, high framerates....but are cropped and squashed to fit the data rate onto the SD/internal memory cards. I wonder if your overcranking may be able to steal these higher framerates before teh camera crushes the resolution down?....

exciting

Dear Matt,

Many modern cameras have either HD-SDI or HDMI output.

This is always the best quality output that the camera offers.

The HD-SDI or HDMI signal is before the resolution and quality robbing compression that occurs in many (almost all) cameras. The exception would be the ultra high end cameras with built in recording facilities.

For over and under-cranking, we will need you to setup the camera for either 720p60 (59.94) or 1080p30 (29.97).

Then we will record the appropriate frames to give you, in 720p, a frame rate of 1 to 60 frames per second and 1 to 30 frames per second in 1080p mode.

I don't understand much the use of Under cranking except if you want to make a kind of time lapse where the lapse is shorter than one second.
About the Over cranking, I really don't see the need in the NANO.
With the EX-1 (SxS recording) you get the best slow mows by Over cranking because the camera records at near 90 Mbps instead of 35Mbps.
With the NANO you will get the same picture quality with or without Over Cranking.
The NANO just records the signal you feed with the quality you set.
I don't expect an slow mow clip from the NANO to play at 220 Mbps.
Over Cranking just would skip the need for conforming. Probably you would loose the audio.
Cheers,
rafael

Hmm - this is interesting - as ive already been able to record 720 at 60p. I mentioned it at the tail end of my other post. I have a Xacti hooked up to the nano via its HDMI dock. Inside the camera, if i set the HDMI signal to ouput through the HDMI a 60p signal - the nano allows this. Ive shot a load of water tank elements/inks this way.

Im worried - maybe im frying my Nano.....?

1080 at 60p is too huge a data set i am guessing? Ive been lookin up some info about it.

Dear Matt,

No, you do not need to worry about frying the nanoFlash.

I doubt that you are getting true 1080p60. This requires a dual link HD-SDI or 3 Gigabit per second link.

If we are recording it, then it is not true 1080p60 or true 1080p59.94.

If you check on the line near the bottom of the screen, on the left, we will report what we are receiving.

sorry Dan - im not getting 1080p at 60 - but i am/can already get 720 at 60p...when using my Xacti 1010.




As you point out in your post, aquiring true 1080p60 needs a pretty fast linkup. Such framerates are always so tantalisingly close.
Sanyo's newer Xacti models support/record full 1080p60 - though compressed to SD disk at 24mbps.

http://sanyo.com/xacti/english/produ..._fh1/spec.html

Ive yet to try a link up to this model to see what it would, if anything try and throw out. Would it be possible to capture into the Nano at a reduced data rate? So we sacrifice a littel clarity/100mbs in order to aquire the signal?

Id best be quiet now - since joining the forum ive gone nuts and starting posting all the time!

The problem is not to record 1080p60.
The problem is to output that.
A camera would need two HD/SD-SDI out sockets.
rafael

I have recorded 60p on Sanyo Hd2000 and played it back via HDMI onto the HD broadcast monitors here at work. Looks really nice. Perhaps im being ignorant here and its dropping frames and sending less info across hdmi?

Anyway - we are flying off at a tangent here. Yes, capturing 1080p is not possible.

I have had some interesting results sourcing 60p to the nano in 1080 though, but changing the signal to interlaced, then using fields kit/bob n' weave in post to fake it back to 60p. Obvioulsy this isnt entirely true 60p, but after studying some comparisons - it does seem sligtly crisper than sending out a RAW 60i signal from the camera.

But referring back to earlier post. Yes, i have been able to already capture 720p60 into the nano when shooting some ink/cloud tank elements for some VFX work. Nano works beautfully for this. So easy to key/luma out even the finest tones.

Dear Matt,

Keep up the questions until you get all the answers you need, no problem at all.

1080p60 is just something that we, and no other single-link 1.485 Gbps recorder can handle. This is due to the fact that the communications link is just no fast enough to handle of the data.

It could be that HDMI is fast enough for 1080p60, I have not researched it.

I can also state that our recorder is setup for 1080i60, 1080i59.94 and many other data rates, but not setup for 1080p60 or 1080p59.04.

Now, for a theoritical answer. If we can record 1080p30 or 1080p29.97, at 100 Mbps, then we would have enough bandwidth in our system to record 1080p60 or 1080p84.94 at 50 Mbps.

Now, for a more practical answer. We have not investigated this and I do not have an informed answer as to if we could do this or not over HDMI. I know we can not do this over HD-SDI.

Once you get 1080p60 or 1080p59.94, I wonder how you might edit it and how you might deliver it.

I hope this helps.

You can edit 1080 p60 in FC.
However the only practical application would be to get a 1080p slow mow.
Rafael

Hi Dan,

Appreciate all the info. do we ever leave this forum?! We are all in and out of here every 30 mins.

hmmm - very interesting theoritical point. I would be very interested indeed to see if the Nano could handle 1080p60 but at a lower bitrate. 50mbps is still a highyl acceptable source quality when compared with native qulaity of other higher priced cameras and capture solutions. In terms of praticality/usability - 1080p60 would be extemily useful for element shoots and stuff i use for VFX. Plus 60p playing back at 23.976/film rates is a lovely overcranking look for film.

I would think HDMI can indeed handle 1080 60p. Early last year i was making a cinematic trailer for Sony Entertainment Europe for 'Killzone 2' game. The insisted we create/render it at 60fps...or rather 60p. This was pretty crippling for our setup at the time, but it reminded me that the playstation 3 plays back true 108060p over HDMI. So i would say that HDMI could indeed handle the data.

If the Nano could handle this input at a lower data rate, this would be a huge leap.
I think a lower data rate will trade off nicely with potential quality loss - as 60p is going to capture more fps - therefore any motion blur wont suffer too horribly due to more 'inbetweens'.

Be great if you guys could look into this.


Currently i use Cineform ProspectHD for all editing/encoding - though i often convert the MXF files to file sequences aswell, such as Floating point, lossless, OpenEXR sequences. This uses large amounts of disk space, but that is of no concern as I tend to only work with these, beign a vfx artist, and we have many terabytes of storage available.

Maybe 1080p60 is the first step toward 1080p120 for super slow motion with the Nano2.

Any update on the under/overcrank feature?

Hi Bob-
We are adding XDCAM Optical drive support and faster compact flash read/writes as well as fixing some minor bugs this month. Additonally, we hope to qualify an affordable ($300) 64 GB Compact Flash card.

Over/undercrank is on the development list for November.

Best-

Does this mean that hot swappable cards has been pushed back yet another month?

Billy

Thanks for the update Mike. Will the 64GB cards handle 220Mbps?

Shot your I-Fame clips yesterday from the machine they look nice. Will contact Dan in a few hours when off a shoot.

Dear Paul,

We are still qualifying the 64 GB cards.

We have sent out 10 of the 32 GB cards, from the same manufacturer, to obtain some real-world, field experience with this brand.

We are testing the 64 GB cards in our lab.

These are very fast, very high performance cards. Yes, they will support our 220 Mbps mode.

Dear Billy,

I had an email meltdown yesterday, while fixing my email problem; I was not able to get on the Internet.

I will check on when we will have "Hot Swapping".

For discussion purposes:

Fast, High Performance 16 GB CompactFlash cards have always been expensive, comparatively speaking to other CompactFlash cards, but not to other professional media.

SanDisk Extreme IV 16 GB cards are currently $159.95, after rebate at B&H.

Four of these cards would offer 64 GB.


Now, the 64 GB, fast, high performance cards we are testing, are much higher in performance (about twice as fast), and cost less than half of four of the SanDisk Extreme IV 16 GB cards.


We are working on Hot Swapping; we will be providing Hot Swapping, as soon as possible.

But, please consider this:

Hot Swapping is inherently dangerous as one may eject the wrong card.

Also, one must be certain to replace the swapped out card with a card that has been formatted and has space left on the card.

Note: We show on the LCD a bar graph of how much space has been used on each card, so one can easily check to ensure that a full card was not inserted.

Two 64 GB cards provide approximately two hours and 48 minutes of record time, at 100 Mbps Long-GOP without interruption.

50 Mbps Long-GOP, the same quality as the Sony PDW-700 and PDW-F800 cameras offer, will provide approximately 5 hours and 36 minutes of recording without interruption.



Personally, I feel that investing $600 in 128 GB's of extremely fast CompactFlash cards is better than taking the risk of the wrong card being ejected at an important event.

But, as I said, we are working on Hot Swapping.

I will determine our latest schedule and report back.

Flash XDR Overcranking Ability
 

Hi Dan:
Is the Flash XDR capable of 1080 @ 60P capture ?

Dear Mark,

No, it is not.

Our HD-SDI inputs are programmed for 1.485 gigabits per second, which is the standard for single-link HD-SDI that is in common use.

Dual-Link HD-SDI is typically required for 1080p60.

There is also a 3G standard and it may be on a few very high-end cameras.

So, to get 1080p60 one typically needs a very high end camera, and dual-link or 3G support.

Hi Dan:
OK. Ironically my new Sony 9 inch HD Monitor has single Link 3G support (Sony LMD 940W) I understand 3G is a new signal chip which allows up to 3 Giga-bits per second data flow.

Dear Mark,

Many converters and other devices work with 1080p60.

Our transmitters and receivers in the Flash XDR and nanoFlash are also capable of physically transmitting and receiving data that fast.

However, 1080p60 is twice the amount of data as 1080p30 (which is obvious).

Your 3G Monitor, and other 3G converters/devices probably do not have to process and store that amount of data. This is where the problem comes in.

Do you have a camera in mind that you want to use to obtain 1080p60?

It has its uses. One of the old tricks is to undercrank a car chase with the cars traveling at normal highway speeds. Played back though, it will appear that the cars are traveling much faster.

-gb-

complicated fight scenes are almost always undercranked. this way the actors can move with deliberate slow actions to make sure they don't kill eachother. when played back at standard speed, the action appears fast, not slow like when the actors did it.

That's another great example of under-cranking, Aaron!

-gb-

Do I Need The Camera or Can the XDR do it for me ?
 

....Well that's hot ! Yay !

....No. I'm shooting with the Canon XL H1 exclusively for now. Perhaps I have misunderstood ? The implication here is if your particular camera cannot shoot at 60p per second, then there is no technically feasible way the XDR or Nano can be programmed to record this frame rate, and even if I did have a camera capable of true 60p, then there is no way to do it, or is there ? I was thinking of a frame or line doubler, which would turn 30 into 60 p somehow ???

Dear Mark,

Your XL H1 can not output 1080p60, only 1080i60 (59.94).

Your Flash XDR can not create 1080p60 out of any other frame rate.

Your Flash XDR can not record 1080p60, even if a camera can generate 1080p60.

............

Your XL H1 can generate 1080p30 (29.97) and the Flash XDR can record it.

Your XL H1 can generate 1080p24 (23.976) and the Flash XDR can record it.

I hope this helps.

Interlaced 60i to 60p ??
 

Hi Dan:
If you think about it, 1080i cameras are actually 60 fps cameras already because they capture an interlaced image. Could a program somehow take the interlaced signal and somehow double it to 60p ?

Dear Mark,

The Canon XL H1, as is normal, for 1080i60 (59.94) produces 29.97 frames per second and 59.94 fields per second in interlaced mode.

Hi Dan:
You wrote: "Dear Mark,

The Canon XL H1, as is normal, for 1080i60 (59.94) produces 29.97 frames per second and 59.94 fields per second in interlaced mode."

....Thanks. I know what speed my camera runs at :-) What I was wondering if there was a possibility of creating an overcranking effect in the XDR for 1080i 59.94 Hz cameras by using a line doubler process ? ;-)

Dear Mark,

I am sorry, I missed the subtleties of your question.

Hi Dan:
I guess I will have to use slow mo processes offered by editing applications. What about Undercrank in the XDR ? I would think we can go down if we can't go up. (??) BTW, 1 frame per second is still too fast to get pedestrians downtown in time lapse mode. I think I need to shoot in some form of undercrank mode of about 2 to possibly 3 frames per second to get the right speed of the flow. I could also slow down my 1 frame per second TL clips until things flow at the right speed. However, if you don't have enough in betweens their isn't much you can do to correct that other than to shoot undercrank.

Dear Mark,

Have you considering just recording at normal speed, then adjusting the speed (velocity) in post? In Sony Vegas it is call Velocity. I do not know what it is called in Avid or FCP.

Normal Speed to Slow Mo in Post (Temporal Fluidity Issues)
 

Hi Dan:
I have tried the slow mo in Avid MC, but I have not yet tied this effect in FCP. I don't like the temporal fluidity of the slow mo in AMC. You have several choices of slow mo in Media Composer, but none of them seem to give smooth enough movement, and the result leans more toward a stroboscopic sort of motion. This type of slow mo can be pleasing for some material in some situations, but I prefer the smoothness of movement effect you get from high speed film shooting. The best temporal fluidity in applied slow motion to a regular speed shot was in an Avid DS Nitris system. Unfortunately I don't have the extra 150 Grand US for one of those ;-)

....So is it safe to conclude CD has no plans to add under or overcranking to the Flash XDR Dan ?

If you're doing slow motion with Apple's Optical Flow technology, the results can be quite amazing, frame blending not so much. Twixtor can also produce amazing results with certain material.

Apple's Optical Flow Technology
 

Hi Aaron:
The Apple Optical Flow Technology to which you refer, is this part of FCP 7.0 or another program ?