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Old November 1st, 2009, 05:57 PM   #46
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I agree Daniel. The client doesn't know any better and it's not necessarily our job to educate them. I'll gladly shoot and post uncompressed for anyone willing to pay for it. I'll use Zeiss lenses or whatever else they want if they're willing to pay for it.

But what I choose to own and use for my own projects will more closely reflect the technology that I consider to be "good enough". Bang for my buck is the most important thing for me and the CD products are absolutely exceeding in that regard.

However, I'm still pursuing an uncompressed capture system for myself. Not to contribute to the 8 vs. 10 bit discussion but more to use my camera's dual link SDI and 4:4:4 Filmstream output.

If you all agree that 4:2:2 is much better than 4:2:0, then we can also agree that 4:4:4 is even better yet.

However, even if I had a 4:4:4 capture system, I'm not planning on giving up my XDR anytime soon. This box is awesome and getting better all the time.

Last edited by Aaron Newsome; November 1st, 2009 at 07:27 PM.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 06:10 PM   #47
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Agreed, Aaron.

And "even" I'll say there's such little (as in VERY) visual difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2, but ask the green screen guys. There is no doubt you get a cleaner pull...yet, the average observer will never see it.

My motto: if the (end) viewer can't see it, it isn't a problem. "Good enough" is powerful medicine.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 06:11 PM   #48
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Oh Yes You Can :-) !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alister Chapman View Post
But you wouldn't be able to edit uncompressed 10 bit of a single drive or G-tech drive pair.
...Hi Alister: I run an Avid certified HP Workstation Laptop PC (Model nw9440). I have the nVidia Quadro graphics card ( FX1500 M but not the 256 MB version = I run a special version of this model with the 512 MB of DDR 3 on board video RAM ). My laptop runs on 4 GB of dual channel DDR 2 667 Mhz RAM together with a special version of system HDD @ 7,200 RPM. Now this baby is plugged into the special HP advanced docking station, which is equipped with Express Card *54* bus running a firewire 800 interface to a 1 TB Raid 0 array. My Avid system runs one stream of uncompressed HD already without studdering. I can do video mix downs if I need to pile on lots of lower thirds and effects, CC, etcetera.
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You will need a really good raid array, probably 4x fast sata drives with a top spec PCI controller as a minimum. Especially if you want 2 streams at a time (around 2Gb/s). Do not underestimate the kind of drive performance you will need to work with uncompressed.
.....A G-Raid 2 TB is enough. I will switch from FW 800 to an express 54 speed eSata interface card. No problem.
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Also consider how you will manage your footage in the field. Even with 4x 64Gb cards you will fill them after less than 30 mins of shooting.
....Nope. I have already made the decision not to purchase any 64 GB CF nedia unless it's offered to me dirt cheap. I will wait for the 128 GB CF cards.
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Offloading to USB drives is not realistic as it would take over 2 hours to backup your 4 cards. Esata would be faster and take around an hour with a fast drive.
....I was thinking a couple of 500 GB Nexto DI's. Soon the CF media will be @ 100 MBps, so not too long to wait. I will learn to integrate dump times into my production workflow.
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One of the key advantages of file based systems is the possibility of faster than realtime workflows. Going back to a slower than realtime workflow is a hit most don't want.
...To be able to have uncompressed I am willing to accept certain considerations.

* It doesn't really matter if your system isn't quite fast enough to playback uncompressed HD or SD anyway. You put up with the studdering for editing purposes and then copy out your completed sequence to another CF card and put that into your XDR or Nano and then play it out in realtime. No problem. If you are delivering on the web or on Blu-ray, then you export via QT Ref into your DVD authoring program or Web encoder and/or render out to Blu-ray DVD .ISO and burn baby burn. Frankly, I don't see where there's a problem Alister. (??)
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Old November 1st, 2009, 06:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Symmes View Post
At least in my part of the woods, the customer is always right.

Not so much a religion as keeping one's options open.
Here I don't disagree with you at all. But note that your post that I responded to had nothing to do with pleasing a client, or keeping one's options open, it just said that "Uncompressed 10bit is key for big screen", which I wanted to point out was just your opinion (and that of your clients), not a fact, or based on any real world truths.

Billy
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Old November 1st, 2009, 06:38 PM   #50
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Current XDR is Way Good Enough, but Uncompressed 10 bit....

Hi friends:
I agree with most of what you've been saying about those 8 wonderful bits, but I was a bit surprised (Ha ! Ha ?) you folks had great difficulties seeing how or telling the difference visually between 8 or 10 bits. Man ! I can clearly see the difference in a big screen projection or on a Sony HD Monitor (Which I have) between the color depth and digital vibrance of the signal. I really don't find this difference hard to see at all. I just shot some live action Canon 24 F @ Long GOP 140 Mbps on my XDR and it looked so close to uncompressed that it's scary-real scary, but 10 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 HD wins :-)
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Old November 1st, 2009, 06:38 PM   #51
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Coming from a film (yes that plastic stuff) background (EFX), I do not have to be sold on 10B, uncompressed (or unsold as some might want).

Yet, a feature I did in '05 was shot not only 8B (HDV), but totally messed up when the client brought it into (then not-ready-for-prime time) FCP and deinterlaced and...well, it was ugly.

Yet, it was "acceptable" in theaters, on film. Lesson learned.

All this is not unlike the 2K/4K numbers game. I have 2K in-house, and YES, if you blow the comparisons up, say, 400%, you WILL see the differences (been there done that a lot). Whether that matters on the final screen is the call.

I prefer my camera original to be as good in ALL ways as is affordable/practical. It's a tough balance sometimes, but things are getting SO much better.

Long GOP has improved dramatically recently and while I will likely remain U/10 for output to film and efx work, I will be doing a feature 100% on nanoFLASH in January.

Now, I've already overstayed my welcome on this one.

I now return you to where we started...only later.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 06:57 PM   #52
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Dear Daniel,

No, you have not overstayed your welcome.

We appreciate your insight and opinions.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 07:04 PM   #53
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Hi Daniel:
For me it's just the fact that you need to make the argument - that somehow 10 bit 4:2:2 is outlandish. This has been a standard in high end TV broadcast and digital cinema for several years now as far as image acquisition goes. If you have to shoot for effects and/or film out then you do 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 uncompressed. If you shoot doc for cable channel, then 8 bit HDV is just fine even and *Several* discovery shows have been shot this way. The XDR and Nano are a way big freakin improvement to say *the least !*
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Old November 1st, 2009, 07:05 PM   #54
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Thanks Dan.

I'm just getting out of this thread.

I earlier suggested a "sticky" for the 8/10 condition just to avoid taking up space going back and forth like this.

Hey. Aren't you supposed to be hard at work on the 1,238 improvements we have demanded?????

SLACKER!
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Old November 1st, 2009, 08:03 PM   #55
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8bit or 10bit

How about 12 bit!! The MegaCine recorder offers support for any format in either single link or dual link uncompressed in 4:4:4 color space, 10 and 12 bit, has genlock in and out, TC in and out, Mark it has RS232/422 for your edit system needs. Offers 90minutes of record time in 4:4:4, battery operated and best of all has Fibre Channel running at 2Gbps to transfer your files.
This recorder would probably work well with the Viper also!

Thanks
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Old November 1st, 2009, 08:16 PM   #56
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I think the MegaCine is just big enough to fall outside of the realm of a camera mounted recorder. Heck, the XDR is too big according to some folks (I'm fine with XDR). The MegaCine is monstrous by comparison though. Plus I've never heard of anyone who actually uses one or has seen it in the wild. Looks nice on the PDF though. Naturally, having a dual link 4:4:4 camera, I lust for boxes like that.
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Old November 1st, 2009, 08:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rogers View Post
How about 12 bit!! The MegaCine recorder offers support for any format in either single link or dual link uncompressed in 4:4:4 color space, 10 and 12 bit, has genlock in and out, TC in and out, Mark it has RS232/422 for your edit system needs. Offers 90minutes of record time in 4:4:4, battery operated and best of all has Fibre Channel running at 2Gbps to transfer your files.
This recorder would probably work well with the Viper also!

Thanks
David Rogers
.....Hi David: I'm googling it ! I'm googling it now ! :-)
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Old November 1st, 2009, 08:22 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Aaron Newsome View Post
I think the MegaCine is just big enough to fall outside of the realm of a camera mounted recorder. Heck, the XDR is too big according to some folks (I'm fine with XDR). The MegaCine is monstrous by comparison though. Plus I've never heard of anyone who actually uses one or has seen it in the wild. Looks nice on the PDF though. Naturally, having a dual link 4:4:4 camera, I lust for boxes like that.
...The XDR should still beat the panys off of it at the uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 level, which is perfectly fine for film out. - Man ! 12 bit 4:4:4 hmmmmmmmm, let's plug this into a Sony SRW 9000 with the 9003 board stuffed in it ! :-)
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Old November 1st, 2009, 08:29 PM   #59
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8-10 or 12bit

Yes at about 18lbs, its portable, though not something to mount on your camera. Definitely something to be used with a bigger crew. I haven't seen one either, though its been around for about a year now. The same folks that developed the Cunima and Easylook cameras came up with this, plus they have a product similar to the NanoFlash. The downside is about an $8K purchase price. Makes the Flash XDR/Nano look very good.

David
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Old November 1st, 2009, 08:30 PM   #60
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12 bit would be interesting but my camera design already conformed to the HD-SDI standard which is 10 bit. I believe my camera takes 12 bits of linear sensor data and fits it to 10 bit log. 10 bit log can fit a lot of data, more than 16 bits linear if I recall correctly.

I wouldn't have a whole lot of use for 12 bit, since my camera outputs 10 bit log. Unless of course I'm entirely ignorant of how or why MegaCine would use 12 bits. It could be that this doesn't refer to the capability of the input signal at all.
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