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Old November 12th, 2009, 12:42 PM   #1
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.MOV 1080p 30fps Long Gop

Just checking something too....

I was on a shoot at the weekend and the client needed me to record in 100mbs 1080p 30fps to match the Canon 5d MkII with the Iconix I was using.

They were editing in FCP and so needed .MOV files.

When I selected this in the flash it warned me that this was not a valid QT format.
MXF would work. So I changed to that.
I guess I have a number of questions.

Had I have changed from Long Gop to I-Frame would this QT warning have gone away?

Is there a way of getting MXF files into FCP?

I'm still working all this codec / compression stuff out... I'm gradually changing from a cameraman to IT expert in the process.

Cheers,

Stuart
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Old November 12th, 2009, 03:32 PM   #2
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5D can't shoot 30fps either. It shoots 29.97fps. QuickTime files can be recorded at 23.98, 23.97, etc. QuickTime files are the best option for FCP right now.

It's a good thing it would not allow you to record 30fps, then your footage would not have worked well with the 5D footage.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:11 PM   #3
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Dear Stuart,

We issue that warning to prevent one for recording files that can not be edited.

Typically (almost always) Quicktime (".MOV") files are edited on Final Cut Pro.

Final Cut Pro does not support "True" frame rates.

While Final Cut Pro will handle 23.976 (23.98) frame per second video, it will not handle "true" 24 frames per second video.

The same applies to true 30p.

We allow True 24p and True 30p to be created in MXF as Avid and others do edit these "True" frame rates.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:21 PM   #4
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I need to chime in, since there's a myth being perpetuated, if only be accident.

BlackMagic, Bluefish, and AJA are the pro cards out there that work on the PC mighty fine (I've had two out of the three), and all use QT (the legal version that can be freely interchanged between PC and MAC).

Unless I need DPX (many clients prefer), I do everything QT.

So...QT is GENERALLY utilized on both platforms for pro work, at least in Hollywood.

That CD is NOT producing a "platform independent" QT is a bur under my saddle.

Thus, I get to wait until CS5, apparently.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:28 PM   #5
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Dear Daniel,

If I have made a mistake, it was unintentional.

Are you saying that one can easily edit Sony XDCam 50 Mbps 4:2:2 @ HL (high level) CBR (Constant Bit Rate) footage, in Quicktime format, (".MOV") on a PC?

If this is so, then we would welcome the news. If so, what NLE with what add-on's are being used?

Now, editing 35 Mbps 4:2:0 Quicktime (".MOV") may be a different story.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:34 PM   #6
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Also Dan, FCP has no problem editing TRUE 24fps or 23.98 with correct timecode options for each.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Symmes View Post
I need to chime in, since there's a myth being perpetuated, if only be accident.

BlackMagic, Bluefish, and AJA are the pro cards out there that work on the PC mighty fine (I've had two out of the three), and all use QT (the legal version that can be freely interchanged between PC and MAC).

Unless I need DPX (many clients prefer), I do everything QT.

So...QT is GENERALLY utilized on both platforms for pro work, at least in Hollywood.

That CD is NOT producing a "platform independent" QT is a bur under my saddle.

Thus, I get to wait until CS5, apparently.
Hi Daniel-
Just for clarification, we do have a license from Apple to create Quicktime files, so I think our files are legal. We now have excellent support for MXF files for all NLEs, including CS3/4 (using the Main Concept Plugin). Our QT support is primarily aimed at FCP, since most of the other NLEs do not have great support for QT files that use the XDCAM HD 422 CODEC (QT playback in CS3/4 is rather choppy).

I can certainly understand that you may prefer to keep all their material strictly in one file format type. We do offer QT to MXF converters and will shortly have a MXF to QT converter via a free software download from Sony.

Best-
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Old November 12th, 2009, 05:44 PM   #8
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Dear Aaron,

Are you saying if we record True 24p in Quicktime, and set the timecode to non-drop frame, it can be easily edited in Final Cut Pro?
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Old November 12th, 2009, 06:28 PM   #9
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Geez.

QT is the DOMINANT format for the systems I mentioned. Just that and nothing more.

Having worked with that format for over 10 years, I can say it works FINE.

But, there are NEW flavors which is where the current issues come from.

I can make QT files that can dropped into FCP, and I (ADOBE CS4) can accept FCP as well.

Thus, no interoperability issues.

But these new flavors do NOT just 'work' and currently require plugins (etc.) just to do part of the job. For me, I need to edit looking at my production monitor. Thus, I monitor from the SDI output of my AJA card.

Most anything Premiere or After EFX will load will be seen on my external monitor.

Right now...nothing from nanoFLASH can be seen on the monitor, and therefore, the MXF and MOV codecs are NOT 'legal' for normal editing on the vast majority of the editing software CURRENTLY available.

That EDIUS can deal with MFX and the particular QT flavor that works with FCP STILL doesn't address what an EDITOR wants - monitoring via the SDI of the editing system.

My ONLY workaround is to play out of the nanoFLASH into my AJA SDI and capture as a normal QT. I can hand that to FCP and it plays fine, as it has for several features and numerous TV shows.

Again, I've heard I'll get PART of the solution with CS5 (or plugins), which won't be in my hands until April at the earliest. Even then, I doubt I'll have external monitoring.

Thus my frustration.

BUT, I have already "sold" three nanoFLASH units because of my extreme appreciation of the product and the people behind it.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 06:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Keaton View Post
Dear Aaron,

Are you saying if we record True 24p in Quicktime, and set the timecode to non-drop frame, it can be easily edited in Final Cut Pro?
I'll create a true 24FPS, NDF file right now and verify, although I've done a fair amount of work in both 24FPS and 23.98.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 07:17 PM   #11
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Also Daniel, the woes you speak of may be better understood if you consider that neither MXF or MOV are codec types. Both of these are containers that can contain any number of a dozen or more types of video encodings.

The troubles you speak of are not related to the container type, which is really just a file format.

The troubles you speak of are related to the codec type, which really has nothing to do with the container type.

The Quicktime files are not giving you trouble because they are not "legal", they are giving you trouble because the video is encoded with a codec that the system does not have a decoder for.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 07:53 PM   #12
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I fully grasp the concepts and prefer not to have write all that out each time. I first dealt with pointer/wrappers with DPS Perception/Velocity systems.

I'm simply sitting on the sidelines until my clients will pay to nail a moving target. Right now, they won't go this way for a number of reasons.

For now, If I stick with QT with appropriate BM/BF/AJA/APPLE codecs, I'm fine. We all (I do business with about 12 vendors) interchange files fine.

I am not blaming any ONE or any THING.

I AM saying the codecs in the CD products do NOT work well enough in a pro environment based on ADOBE products. Considering the price point of the nanoFLASH, a lot of Premiere fans are out in the chill, pending CS5 or paying for additional software.

I can't use the output of the CD product at this time.

Maybe BlackMagic, Bluefish and AJA will somehow figure it all out. Well, one can dream.

All things will change, so we'll see what the new year brings.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 07:58 PM   #13
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Ok Dan, took me a few minutes to test because I ran a bunch of tests on TRUE 24FPS NDF files. I was able to edit 24FPS Quicktime files in FCP with no problem whatsoever.

However, you may be correct in that some FCP decoders are limited to certain frame rates. For example. I created a MPEG2 file using the IMX encoder, which plays fine in Quicktime and other applications but will not open in FCP with 24FPS frame rate.

Here is my test file for you to verify:

http://files.me.com/aaron.newsome/qxmuv4.mov

This file is:

1080p24fps
XDCAM EX 35Mbps
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Old November 12th, 2009, 08:04 PM   #14
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Hi Daniel. There is another thread on that very topic. I just went through the same nightmare myself with Premiere.

It seems that Adobe are the ones who came up short on this one though, not CD. Premiere can read the XDCAM EX codec up to 35Mbs and no more. The CD 4:2:2 50Mbs codec can not be used on Premiere and obviously higher quality professional XDCAM EX bitrates are not supported in Premiere natively.

Since I like placing blame, if I owned Premiere, I know precisely where I would direct my frustration with that situation.

For my project, in the end, I just ended up transcoding to ProRes 422, which worked fine in Premiere with no quality loss. This was an acceptable workaround for all involved. A better workaround would be for Adobe to equip Premiere with more professional codec support.
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Old November 12th, 2009, 08:18 PM   #15
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Well, that addresses half of it, like I said.

Without playing out to my reference monitor, as I currently do, it's a no go.

I've played the Adobe game from very humble beginnings. Make that PAINFUL. But I've worked with most any system you can imagine (including Lucas' DROID). The Premiere/After Effects/Fusion interaction works for me, and virtually all my clients.

Getting all the parts to play nice is the GAME of time.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a cuts-only basic editing feature appear in the XDR/nanoFLASH.
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