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Old April 11th, 2013, 12:02 PM   #91
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

Canon C300, 1080... $14,000

BMCC, 4k Raw, global shutter...$3,995

I'm not understanding the thinking in suggesting the Canon.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 12:04 PM   #92
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

Sure you can use it. A 43 mount is typically a 43 mount. You will never get close to the look of full frame. Still a good option however to get just a bit wider. Your lens options for Nikon tend to be a bit limited compared to the ranges you can find with M43 lenses but there are some options. there is an 11mm Nikon mount that should be super wide even on the BMPC. Kind of what you gain with the Speed poster adapter gets negated by the extra crop factor of the camera compared to M43 sensor but yes it will help. So instead of that 11mm looking like a 15mm compared to using it on the GH3 it may continue to look like a 11mm on the BMPC by using the Speed Booster adapter. If however you used that 11mm with the Speed Booster on the GH3 that same 11mm would act like a 8mm. So on even playing fields the GH3 will always be able to get wider.

But yes if you add the Speed Booster to the BMPC you may get back to where the GH3 is in terms of field of view but never better and no where near full frame. Keep in mind that is full manual only with zero auto control including aperture. Since that 11-14mm lens is a newer lens it has no aperture ring on the lens so you will have no control. I'm not even sure if it would work since some lenses close their apertures when they are removed from the lens. If you have to use older Nikon lenses with aperture rings good luck finding one wider than 24mm in which case you might as well just use native M43 lenses.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 03:48 PM   #93
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
If you have to use older Nikon lenses with aperture rings good luck finding one wider than 24mm in which case you might as well just use native M43 lenses.
There are a few Nikon lenses with aperture rings wider then 24mm.
You have the 18-35 and 20-35 zooms.
There is the 18/2.8, 20/2.8, 24/2.8 and the huge 14/2.8.

Some of these are cheap and plentiful, others cost more then they are worth.

But as you say, Nikons are not the right lenses for the ultra wide look on the BMPC.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 07:37 PM   #94
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Duane Adam View Post
Canon C300, 1080... $14,000

BMCC, 4k Raw, global shutter...$3,995

I'm not understanding the thinking in suggesting the Canon.
Duane.....I think you are focusing on the 1080 vs RAW thing...and it is soo much more than that. #1 would be functionality....the C300 is ready to go out of the box (add a card and a lens). The battery that comes with runs 3-4 hours, the cards record much more time, the camera sees in the dark (you'll need 1/4 of the lights you'd normally use), NDs are built in, function buttons abound, XLRs built in, and in post, the codec is basically the equivalent to PRoRes422 and flies into Premier, Final Cut, and even AVID. You will save time & money shooting with this camera and is why the camera is the hottest rental camera in town for over 1 year....and the rental price is holding (it usually drops after 6 months).
On the BM, it is not a functioning camera out of the box...you have to add 1) an audio recording system 2) a battery system 3) a higher level monitor 4) some sort of cage to have #s1, 2, & 3 mounted with the camera, and more...
Now, in comparing the "picture taker" in each camera, the Canon chip is far superior....super 35 sized (vs basically a 16mm size), much better low light(best of all cameras) and very little "grain" at the higher ISOs (noise comes up much faster on BM)......
Also, there is no delivery problem with the Canons while it is still an issue with BM.....
When buying a camera, its most important to get the one that fits your needs. RAW is much like 4K in that it sounds nice, nice to have the option, but does one really need it for the jobs one is working or being hired for.....and do you have lots of time and money because that's what you'll need in post in dealing with either one.

Jim Martin
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Old April 11th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #95
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Duane Adam View Post
Canon C300, 1080... $14,000

BMCC, 4k Raw, global shutter...$3,995

I'm not understanding the thinking in suggesting the Canon.
To add to what Jim said, and don't get me wrong...I think the BMPC is an exciting product for the price, (I pre ordered one) but it's really not in the same league featurewise as the any of the 12k+ cameras on the market. There's a great article that covers a lot of the "need to knows" with I think some rather telling comments from the Dan May, President of BlackMagic....he essentially says they made a conscious decision to sit between the pro cameras on the market and the dslr crowd....essentially not offering many of the features available on cameras like the C300 so they could get to market quickly and NOT have to charge 10k for the camera. It's a completely different paradigm. I also think we cannot take too lightly the workflow issues relative to 4k raw. RED seems ahead in this area, but only with a very expensive set of tools. Focusing on the low cost of this camera juxtaposed to it's RAW output lays out pretty quickly the conundrum this camera creates. You won't be using that Raw much unless you've got a lot of time and money on your hands.

Frankly, I don't think Canon gets enough credit for designing a system as simple and elegant as the c300. It's like they took a page out of Apple's book. Don't give people features that they and the pipeline aren't ready for. I use the C300 in situations I would have never dreamed I could use a camera two years ago. And I've definitely used it more than any other video device I've ever owned. Perfectly. functional.

------

Oh and Jim...just a little correction the new BMPC has a super35 sensor not 16mm.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 08:29 PM   #96
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

I was talking about the "old" one.......

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Old April 11th, 2013, 10:42 PM   #97
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Philip Lipetz View Post
Try the Canon C100/300 for 4k down sampled to 1080p POP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duane Adam View Post
Canon C300, 1080... $14,000

BMCC, 4k Raw, global shutter...$3,995

I'm not understanding the thinking in suggesting the Canon.
In addition to what Jim and Barry just said, remember that Philip originally mentioned the C100 as well, which retails at B&H for $5,499. It has the same (or very similar) sensor as the C300 and many of the same features mentioned by Jim. And, as Tom mentioned earlier, both the C100 and C300 are capturing from a 4K sensor, then outputting as 1080p.

I think that C100 and BMCC 4K can definitely be compared in terms of price (once you kit out the BMCC to match the features in the C100). It mostly seems to come down to two things:
(a) Do you feel you have a genuine need to shoot 4K?
(b) Are you prepared to invest the extra time (and therefore money, if you are charging for your time) into the post workflow with a BMCC? Remember, with a camera like a C100, you can set your look beforehand with a picture profile, then expose it correctly and shoot it. This tends to minimize any post time needed for grading.

This is all just my opinion, of course.
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Old April 11th, 2013, 11:15 PM   #98
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
S35 sensor. 13 stops DR, 4K, Global Shutter, Compressed Raw, ProRes..etc...@ $4,000?

Yeah, tell them what they're doing wrong!
Save the sarcasm... I own their current camera and there's a lot wrong with it. If I thought anyone from black magic was listening, I'd write a list.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 01:28 AM   #99
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Save the sarcasm... I own their current camera and there's a lot wrong with it. If I thought anyone from black magic was listening, I'd write a list.
Well....I wasn't being sarcastic , so much as I just find it hard to be truly negative about a company that has only been producing cameras for 1 year now, and their second version is offering all these options at these price points. Its not as if I could just go out and buy another camera at $4000 with 4K, S35, Global Shutter, Compressed Raw etc. It wold have been an unrealistic dream just 2 weeks ago.

But yeah, nothing is truly perfect, and theres always room for improvement.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 08:50 AM   #100
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Dylan Couper View Post
Save the sarcasm... I own their current camera and there's a lot wrong with it. If I thought anyone from black magic was listening, I'd write a list.
And exactly how did you feel $3000.00 was going to give you the perfect cinema camera? We have to be a bit realistic here. I used to buy DVCAM cameras for $12,000.00 and they still had their faults. I think too many have become insanely spoiled and entitled about what they should get in a camera for a couple of bucks. Even RED has its faults and a decent size list of them.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 11:12 AM   #101
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Originally Posted by Jim Martin View Post
Duane.....I think you are focusing on the 1080 vs RAW thing...and it is soo much more than that. #1 would be functionality....the C300 is ready to go out of the box (add a card and a lens). The battery that comes with runs 3-4 hours, the cards record much more time, the camera sees in the dark (you'll need 1/4 of the lights you'd normally use), NDs are built in, function buttons abound, XLRs built in, and in post, the codec is basically the equivalent to PRoRes422 and flies into Premier, Final Cut, and even AVID. You will save time & money shooting with this camera and is why the camera is the hottest rental camera in town for over 1 year....and the rental price is holding (it usually drops after 6 months).
On the BM, it is not a functioning camera out of the box...you have to add 1) an audio recording system 2) a battery system 3) a higher level monitor 4) some sort of cage to have #s1, 2, & 3 mounted with the camera, and more...
Now, in comparing the "picture taker" in each camera, the Canon chip is far superior....super 35 sized (vs basically a 16mm size), much better low light(best of all cameras) and very little "grain" at the higher ISOs (noise comes up much faster on BM)......
Also, there is no delivery problem with the Canons while it is still an issue with BM.....
When buying a camera, its most important to get the one that fits your needs. RAW is much like 4K in that it sounds nice, nice to have the option, but does one really need it for the jobs one is working or being hired for.....and do you have lots of time and money because that's what you'll need in post in dealing with either one.

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
I understand the argument but I've purchased my last hd camera, no matter how good it is. I'm already working with both raw and compressed 4k so I understand the pros and cons. For what I do, the higher resolution of 4k is worth the trouble. Being that the Canon c300is likely to depreciate at least one BMPC the day it's delivered, I think there's less finacial risk in ordering a bm. As mentioned, the BMPC has a 35mm sensor not 16mm as you stated so its low light performance should be better than the 2.5k version. I'll try one, if it sucks I'll sell it and move on. By that time there should be others to choose from.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 12:19 PM   #102
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

Guys with red Epics getting in line to pay $9500 just to upgrade camera sensor, and nobody seen a single frame from it yet. So S35,12 stops, 4K, double format, global shutter for four thousand dollars? - it's impossible go wrong.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 01:30 PM   #103
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

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Guys with red Epics getting in line to pay $9500 just to upgrade camera sensor, and nobody seen a single frame from it yet. So S35,12 stops, 4K, double format, global shutter for four thousand dollars? - it's impossible go wrong.
Exactly. HD has been a fine format but it's being replaced right now. If you want to be the guy who forks over $14k or more for last decade's technology go for it. I love that BM is pushing the ball forward and as long as they do I'll support them, quirks and all.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 01:47 PM   #104
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

The advantage in the BMPC's low price is that you can get your ROI faster. It's a lot less painful to upgrade a $4K camera every year or two than it is for a $14K camera.

As I may have mentioned before, even if one is still delivering in 1080 (as most of us are no doubt) the ability to reframe or stabilize without blowing up the image is, in itself, a resolution gain.
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Old April 12th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #105
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Re: New from Black Magic Design - 4K Cinema Camera

We are entering a age of disposable recording heads. Inexpensive and with limited lifespans. Glass is more expensive and retains its value. Recording heads like the BM personal camera will be obsolete in a few years, even the BMCC and the BMPCC, but who cares? You got your value, and it was for an ever decreasing price of entry.

Come on, $1k for 1080p RAW. Use it and then loose it when 4K heads drop to $1k, and they will. But do not wait. The key is to use it, and not worry about future value. The journey is its own reward.

Last edited by Philip Lipetz; April 12th, 2013 at 03:24 PM.
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