Suggestion on SD 25p/50i FCP V.5 workflow.

Liam Hall · February 21st, 2007, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

It's great to hear that your project is progressing well. Although I'm not sure why you'd want to use MPEG Streamclip so late in your workflow. If you are intending to export with the same settings as you captured with (DV PAL), then you should simply export. No side trips to other applications should be needed.

The main use for MPEG Streamclip with footage from your camera (JVC GY-HD100 series) would be at the BEGINNING of your workflow. To convert your .m2t files from the camera (when shooting HDV 720p25) into Quicktime movies (using the codec of your choice) which can then be imported into FCP. Once you are in FCP you should have no further need for MPEG Streamclip (unless I am missing something). FCP and Compressor should be able to handle any other conversions from that point onwards.

David,
You're absolutely right with everything you've advised David S. The reason I suggested using MPeg Streamclip for export is because he is mixing interlace and progressive footage on the same timeline and he may get motion artefacts on export - if he wanted to make it all progressive then the controls in MPeg Streamclip are easy to follow. Also, DVPAL isn't the best codec for export, not least because of the compression - that's why apple introduced AIC. I probably muddied the water though.

FYI, in the UK our HDTV is 1080i/25 and 720p/50.

Cheers,

Liam.

David Scattergood · February 21st, 2007, 03:35 AM

There is only a little interlaced footage within the timeline, and I'd probably cut them up as seperate clip exports anyhow (which is what the client wants).
I'm not that keen on 50i but occasionally use it for the fast pans and zooms used in promo's/adverts (saying that, you can probably get away with that with progressive once you've learned the techniques...).
However, it's entirely possible that I'll be mixing interlaced and progressive in the future (certain programmes/documentaries mix the two on a regular basis) so it's good to know I can used Mpeg streamclip for this - would I export the timeline to Mpeg S**....I haven't as yet used Mep streamclip so little unsure how I could carry this out.

Liam - DVPAL may be my only option for export - AIC seems to miss out SD 25p and 720p for that matter...again it's entirely possible I may have misread what you advised though!!

Many thanks.

David Scattergood · February 21st, 2007, 06:38 AM

Just a follow up on this;
The .mov files when viewed on Quicktime Player aren't quite the same as when viewed on an 'external' final cur pro viewer even when viewing the compressed file from a burned disk??
Not sure if you would call them 'artefacts' as such but there seems to be the odd bit of diagonal edging??
I'll try and add a jpeg of a frame to show this but you're probably already aware of this?
Thanks.

Liam Hall · February 21st, 2007, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Just a follow up on this;
The .mov files when viewed on Quicktime Player aren't quite the same as when viewed on an 'external' final cur pro viewer even when viewing the compressed file from a burned disk??
Not sure if you would call them 'artefacts' as such but there seems to be the odd bit of diagonal edging??
I'll try and add a jpeg of a frame to show this but you're probably already aware of this?
Thanks.

That's why I suggested washing them through Mpeg Streamclip.

David Knaggs · February 21st, 2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

The .mov files when viewed on Quicktime Player aren't quite the same as when viewed on an 'external' final cur pro viewer

Something to be aware of regarding Quicktime:

It might only show you a low resolution image when viewing a .mov file in the DV codec. But the actual .mov file will still be at full resolution. But Quicktime might not show it to you unless you tell it to.

To get Quicktime (Pro) to display it at full quality resolution:

1/ Press Apple (Command) J to bring up Movie Properties.
2/ Click "Video Track", then "Visual Settings".
3/ Check the "High Quality" box.
You should now see a markedly better image and you can save (Apple S) if you want it to always show you the High Quality version.

This might have nothing to do with the problem you described, but it's worth knowing this about Quicktime, or you could get needlessly freaked out at some point in the future.

David Scattergood · February 23rd, 2007, 03:11 AM

Apoligies for not responding any sooner, I was otherwise engaged with my other 'Washed Out footage' thread!

David - have just tried your quicktime setup and the difference is pretty remarkable really...surprised you can't have this quality when you originally export this from FCP?? Can this be set at default? I will go through all these quicktime files and reset them to this high quality setting before I burn any more.

Liam - I have Mpeg streamclip and have attempted to either open a file in FCP from there or export to there from FCP...not having much luck at the moment however. I think I need to read up a little more on that - not entirely sure what workflow I would use to 'wash' the footage via MPEG streamclip.
Really appreciate these tips fella's.

Liam Hall · February 23rd, 2007, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Apoligies for not responding any sooner, I was otherwise engaged with my other 'Washed Out footage' thread!

David - have just tried your quicktime setup and the difference is pretty remarkable really...surprised you can't have this quality when you originally export this from FCP?? Can this be set at default? I will go through all these quicktime files and reset them to this high quality setting before I burn any more.

Liam - I have Mpeg streamclip and have attempted to either open a file in FCP from there or export to there from FCP...not having much luck at the moment however. I think I need to read up a little more on that - not entirely sure what workflow I would use to 'wash' the footage via MPEG streamclip.
Really appreciate these tips fella's.

Follow David K's advice, he's spot on. Having reread the thread more carefully I got my wires crossed with an issue I had on a job last month.

David Scattergood · February 23rd, 2007, 05:00 AM

ok, no problem Liam. Thanks anyway mate.

David Scattergood · February 23rd, 2007, 05:18 AM

Following on from Movie Porperties, I'm playing around with other settings whilst in Quicktime and noticed the following:

When I export (theoretically) the quicktime movie (which I have already exported from FCP) recorded in 25p 4:3 format, the movie settings show this set up:

Compression: DV - PAL
Quality: Medium
Scan Mode: Interlaced (unless this relates to the original timeline in fcp being interlaced, then should I export as progressive - shot in 25p)
Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (I recorded this in 4:3...why would it default to exporting as 16:9)
Dimensions: 768x576 (I guess Quicktime automatically shifts this to the square pixel set up).

Would this type off exporting be for the web (hence the square pixels etc)?
I may be 'bleeding' into another subject here so apologies for that and just ignore.

David Knaggs · February 23rd, 2007, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Apoligies for not responding any sooner, I was otherwise engaged with my other 'Washed Out footage' thread!

Yes, I was originally going to chip in about white balance and polarizers, but Tim Dashwood and so many others had already responded so brilliantly that there was no need. It makes me realize what a wonderful community DVInfo.net really is. There are so many people willing to bend over backwards to help the other person out. This is quite vital for we are all early adopters of new technology and therefore "pioneers". By sticking together and pooling knowledge about techniques and solutions to problems with the gear and their workflows, we can all move forward together. The true pioneer spirit! Anyway, back to the topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

David - have just tried your quicktime setup and the difference is pretty remarkable really...surprised you can't have this quality when you originally export this from FCP?? Can this be set at default?

That's a very good question. On those fairly rare occasions when I work with DV, I'm exporting straight to DVD anyway, so I've never bothered working out a default.

But a quick look through the Quicktime Pro preferences reveals a possible default solution.

1/ On the Menu Bar select Quicktime Player > Preferences ...
2/ On the window which appears, select the General tab.
3/ Under the Movies heading, check the box "Use high-quality video setting when available".
4/ To test it, export a new Quicktime movie (in DV) from FCP and open it in the Quicktime player (and let us know if it works!).

Also, remember what I said at the start of this thread. Exporting in the DVCPRO50 (DV50) codec (rather than DV) can also give you a better quality Quicktime movie (although at larger file sizes).

Liam Hall · February 23rd, 2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Knaggs

Also, remember what I said at the start of this thread. Exporting in the DVCPRO50 (DV50) codec (rather than DV) can also give you a better quality Quicktime movie (although at larger file sizes).

That's where I went wrong, got my inverted field dominance mixed up with my interframe motion sampling. DOH!

David Scattergood · February 23rd, 2007, 09:18 AM

[QUOTE]Yes, I was originally going to chip in about white balance and polarizers, but Tim Dashwood and so many others had already responded so brilliantly that there was no need. It makes me realize what a wonderful community DVInfo.net really is. There are so many people willing to bend over backwards to help the other person out. This is quite vital for we are all early adopters of new technology and therefore "pioneers". By sticking together and pooling knowledge about techniques and solutions to problems with the gear and their workflows, we can all move forward together. The true pioneer spirit! Anyway, back to the topic:/QUOTE]

Indeed David...the past few days have been a royal blessing...I sometimes get a little down and think is it worth all the stress (especially seeing that footage the other day), but step ups from you folks can turn it all back round. Hopefully one day I can return the favour to others.

Quote:

That's a very good question. On those fairly rare occasions when I work with DV, I'm exporting straight to DVD anyway, so I've never bothered working out a default.

But a quick look through the Quicktime Pro preferences reveals a possible default solution.

1/ On the Menu Bar select Quicktime Player > Preferences ...
2/ On the window which appears, select the General tab.
3/ Under the Movies heading, check the box "Use high-quality video setting when available".
4/ To test it, export a new Quicktime movie (in DV) from FCP and open it in the Quicktime player (and let us know if it works!).

Also, remember what I said at the start of this thread. Exporting in the DVCPRO50 (DV50) codec (rather than DV) can also give you a better quality Quicktime movie (although at larger file sizes).

Yes - noted that this wasn't checked. Would the 'burned' copies of the original files be set at the rate I burned them at or could I from there (say on the client's quicktime) set the higher setting...it looked as rum on his as mine the other day :(
i'm going to try and colour correct the WB on the FCP files (as per Liam's suggestion...still unsure which colour I should be picking with the dropper mind?!?!) then reburn at the higher settings...possibly a fair bit of footage can be salvaged this way. However, with the ND (Polariser....which I'm just about to order - thanks David) and WB set correctly as well as a 'spring clean' on the back focus I should be far happier with the results.

As well as exporting with the DVCPRO50 codec could I use that as the easy set up for all my SD work (mainly 25p)?
I've got several tests to do over the next few days, one of them is the DVC workflow - I'll be sure to let you know how I suceed/fail!
...then soon....HDV awaits... :)

David Knaggs · February 23rd, 2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

i'm going to try and colour correct the WB on the FCP files (as per Liam's suggestion...still unsure which colour I should be picking with the dropper mind?!?!)

There is a free tutorial that will walk you through the dropper process step-by-step for footage taken with an incorrect white balance. Go to this page:

http://www.rippletraining.com/free_t...l_cut_pro.html

and select the free movie called "Chip Chart". The example they give is for footage which is too blue! They'll show you how to fix it. I already have their training DVD-ROMs on Colour Correction and on DVD Studio Pro. (And next week I'll be buying their DVD-ROMs on "Getting Started with Motion" and "The Art of Encoding using Compressor". I find their tutorials to be brilliant. Purely my personal opinion though.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

Yes - noted that this wasn't checked. Would the 'burned' copies of the original files be set at the rate I burned them at or could I from there (say on the client's quicktime) set the higher setting...it looked as rum on his as mine the other day :(

If your client has Quicktime Pro then, yes, you should be able to fix it on his computer. If he doesn't, I'm not sure. I guess newly burning High Quality ones might then be the best option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Scattergood

As well as exporting with the DVCPRO50 codec could I use that as the easy set up for all my SD work (mainly 25p)?

Definitely try it. It might turn out that FCP will only capture (in DVCPRO50 set-up) footage from Panasonic cameras. If that turns out to be the case, do Easy Set-up for DV PAL, capture all the footage then change Easy Setup to DV50 PAL, create a new sequence and only work and export in DV50 from there.

David Scattergood · February 23rd, 2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

There is a free tutorial that will walk you through the dropper process step-by-step for footage taken with an incorrect white balance. Go to this page:

http://www.rippletraining.com/free_t...l_cut_pro.html

and select the free movie called "Chip Chart". The example they give is for footage which is too blue! They'll show you how to fix it. I already have their training DVD-ROMs on Colour Correction and on DVD Studio Pro. (And next week I'll be buying their DVD-ROMs on "Getting Started with Motion" and "The Art of Encoding using Compressor". I find their tutorials to be brilliant. Purely my personal opinion though.)

Brilliant. I'm in FCP with the dropper in hand/mouse. Proper guide through would help.
Gonna look into those DVD roms straight away - the DVD guide you get shipped with FCP pro has been fantastic in getting me into the 'groove', unfortunately it ditches you at the alter just when it starts to get interesting i.e. it doesn't go deep enough, which when you first starting out doesn't need to.
Cheers.

David Scattergood · February 23rd, 2007, 10:49 AM

Would you believe it!! The Clip Chart is the one not working for me! The rest (at least the few I've checked open fine) :(
Sod's law!
Is it working for you?

February 21st, 2007, 03:35 AM	#17
David Scattergood Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 755	There is only a little interlaced footage within the timeline, and I'd probably cut them up as seperate clip exports anyhow (which is what the client wants). I'm not that keen on 50i but occasionally use it for the fast pans and zooms used in promo's/adverts (saying that, you can probably get away with that with progressive once you've learned the techniques...). However, it's entirely possible that I'll be mixing interlaced and progressive in the future (certain programmes/documentaries mix the two on a regular basis) so it's good to know I can used Mpeg streamclip for this - would I export the timeline to Mpeg S**....I haven't as yet used Mep streamclip so little unsure how I could carry this out. Liam - DVPAL may be my only option for export - AIC seems to miss out SD 25p and 720p for that matter...again it's entirely possible I may have misread what you advised though!! Many thanks.

February 21st, 2007, 06:38 AM	#18
David Scattergood Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 755	Just a follow up on this; The .mov files when viewed on Quicktime Player aren't quite the same as when viewed on an 'external' final cur pro viewer even when viewing the compressed file from a burned disk?? Not sure if you would call them 'artefacts' as such but there seems to be the odd bit of diagonal edging?? I'll try and add a jpeg of a frame to show this but you're probably already aware of this? Thanks.

February 23rd, 2007, 03:11 AM	#21
David Scattergood Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 755	Apoligies for not responding any sooner, I was otherwise engaged with my other 'Washed Out footage' thread! David - have just tried your quicktime setup and the difference is pretty remarkable really...surprised you can't have this quality when you originally export this from FCP?? Can this be set at default? I will go through all these quicktime files and reset them to this high quality setting before I burn any more. Liam - I have Mpeg streamclip and have attempted to either open a file in FCP from there or export to there from FCP...not having much luck at the moment however. I think I need to read up a little more on that - not entirely sure what workflow I would use to 'wash' the footage via MPEG streamclip. Really appreciate these tips fella's.

February 23rd, 2007, 05:00 AM	#23
David Scattergood Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 755	ok, no problem Liam. Thanks anyway mate.

February 23rd, 2007, 05:18 AM	#24
David Scattergood Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 755	Following on from Movie Porperties, I'm playing around with other settings whilst in Quicktime and noticed the following: When I export (theoretically) the quicktime movie (which I have already exported from FCP) recorded in 25p 4:3 format, the movie settings show this set up: Compression: DV - PAL Quality: Medium Scan Mode: Interlaced (unless this relates to the original timeline in fcp being interlaced, then should I export as progressive - shot in 25p) Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (I recorded this in 4:3...why would it default to exporting as 16:9) Dimensions: 768x576 (I guess Quicktime automatically shifts this to the square pixel set up). Would this type off exporting be for the web (hence the square pixels etc)? I may be 'bleeding' into another subject here so apologies for that and just ignore.

February 23rd, 2007, 10:49 AM	#30
David Scattergood Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Manchester, UK Posts: 755	Would you believe it!! The Clip Chart is the one not working for me! The rest (at least the few I've checked open fine) :( Sod's law! Is it working for you?