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Old April 28th, 2008, 05:55 PM   #16
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The BBC document appears to abruptly bring us back to the "good ol' days", when so-called managers & engineers ruled the show: DV & DVCAM were considered "unacceptable" (at least at the TV station I used to work for). Then good stuff shot in those formats popped up - and it was aired as an "exception to the rules". Then the managers discovered that it was cheaper (and often more sensible) to shoot DV, and even BBC (if I'm not mistaken) dispatched a dozen crews around the world with PD-150s or 170s - and the engineers had to keep quiet. Now they seem to be back. Not for long, I suspect (unless they really think that people care more about pixels than about programs).

Just my two cents
(after 25 years in the business)

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Old April 28th, 2008, 07:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Vasco Dones View Post
Then the managers discovered that it was cheaper (and often more sensible) to shoot DV, and even BBC (if I'm not mistaken) dispatched a dozen crews around the world with PD-150s or 170s - and the engineers had to keep quiet.
Not only that, the BBC issued training guides for those cameras:

http://www.bbctraining.com/onlineCou...=5160&cat=2781
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Old April 29th, 2008, 06:06 AM   #18
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Unfortunately they've also made quite a few poor programmes with these Mini DV cameras. Reminds me of a saying that one top cameraman used with directors with little visual sense: "be careful what you ask for, you might actually get it".

There have been good documentaries with them, especially in situations where you wish to keep a low profile. However, DSR 500 or DSR 570s do produce better pictures if you're going the DVCAM route.
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Old April 29th, 2008, 06:58 PM   #19
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Unfortunately they've also made quite a few poor programmes with these Mini DV cameras. Reminds me of a saying that one top cameraman used with directors with little visual sense: "be careful what you ask for, you might actually get it".

There have been good documentaries with them, especially in situations where you wish to keep a low profile. However, DSR 500 or DSR 570s do produce better pictures if you're going the DVCAM route.
There has been quite a few poor programs shot with ANY type of camera - including the latest state-of-the-art whatever-they're-called 100% pure HD cameras. On top of that, some stations seem to compress the signal in a way that just kills whatever flavor of HD you were supposed to get on your screen. But it's probably just my personal bias... (coming from the "producer-reporter-director" department...)

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Old April 30th, 2008, 06:45 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Vasco Dones View Post
There has been quite a few poor programs shot with ANY type of camera - including the latest state-of-the-art whatever-they're-called 100% pure HD cameras. On top of that, some stations seem to compress the signal in a way that just kills whatever flavor of HD you were supposed to get on your screen. But it's probably just my personal bias... (coming from the "producer-reporter-director" department...)

Best

Vasco
Seems the mpeg4 that the BBC are using has difficulties with certain aspects of HDV and 500 ASA Super 16. However, given the way technology is going, I can see little reason to shoot most HD programmes on 1/3" HDV cameras. I don't know why there's a reason for not having 35mb/s in the BBC guidelines. I haven't seen their tests, perhaps once it's gone through a post of less than the highest quality there are issues with the transcoding through various codecs involved in the chain.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 09:41 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by The-BBC-HD-delivery-reqs
The following formats are considered to be standard definition:
o HDV from all manufactures
Since when HDV=SD?
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Old May 1st, 2008, 03:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Mugurel Dragusin View Post
Since when HDV=SD?
It's for the purpose of defining quotas as in paragraph 1.3 of that document:
Quote:
1.3. Programmes must be acquired, post produced and delivered in high
definition. Programmes must contain a minimum of 75% high definition
material. The other 25% can be standard definition as defined in section 2.1
below.
These are guidelines, and may be varied if the case was good enough. Other examples may be for using more than 25% archive (hence SD or 16mm film) if the programme justified it. Otherwise, everybody is clear what's permissible without obtaining special exemption - which includes 25% max HDV.
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Old May 1st, 2008, 04:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mugurel Dragusin View Post
Since when HDV=SD?
I believe movement like trees blowing in the wind shot on HDV are causing problems in their chain - it's a similar problem to the grain on 500 ASA Super 16, although you can de-grain that. Discovery HD apply a restriction of 15%.
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Old May 1st, 2008, 08:49 AM   #24
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Posted today on The Reel Show is a segment "Reel Time #1, part 4" where Andy Benjamin from the "DV Mentor" dept. at the BBC talks about how they asses camera's and specifically about the EX1 and a little bit on how/why the 35Mb/s is not enough for the HD channel.

The "Reel Time #1" show is cut a bit strangely as Andy Benjamin is announced at the very end of "part 3", so if you just watch "part 4", he's not introduced at all.

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Old May 1st, 2008, 10:51 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by George Kroonder View Post
Posted today on The Reel Show is a segment "Reel Time #1, part 4" where Andy Benjamin from the "DV Mentor" dept. at the BBC talks about how they asses camera's and specifically about the EX1 and a little bit on how/why the 35Mb/s is not enough for the HD channel.

George/
Basically, on the BBC's single HD channel they've set a high quality threshold and 50 Mb/s just passes. I'd imagine they see it as a flagship channel for their high end productions. You can see picture quality (and production values) on these HD productions even when transmitted on the SD channels.

Perhaps, if they get more HD channels, what is technically acceptable will come down.

The Z1 was described as half way between SD & HD, which I guess is fair enough given the resolution figures I've seen in published tests.
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Old May 3rd, 2008, 09:47 PM   #26
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I nearly Shatnered myself when I saw ALL HDV cams were out... I just bought an HDV cam (XH-A1). I know that many show like Top Gear have used Z1U's in the past! I don't live in the UK but I do watch some of their content on BBC America, very nice and professional, especially compared to most of the trashy TV we have here in the good ol; US.
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Old May 4th, 2008, 04:07 AM   #27
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I nearly Shatnered myself when I saw ALL HDV cams were out... I just bought an HDV cam (XH-A1). I know that many show like Top Gear have used Z1U's in the past! I don't live in the UK but I do watch some of their content on BBC America, very nice and professional, especially compared to most of the trashy TV we have here in the good ol; US.
The Z1 is a common piece of kit in the BBC, that's used a lot on SD programmes (like Top Gear). Strangely, often as a Mini DV camera rather than HDV for downconversion, although that latter workflow seems to be increasing - the HD post being a limiting factor. I know one freelance cameraman who's done a lot of documentary work on BBC commissioned productions using a Z1 and I last time I spoke to him he'd never shot any HDV.

The HDV restriction only applies to BBC Hi Def productions.
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Old May 5th, 2008, 03:04 PM   #28
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Hi All,

Ivan Snoeckx just posted a link to Nigel Coopers "One day in Belgium" review of the EX3, which ends in the quote:

Quote:
...the EX1 and EX3 are the only camcorders in their class (compact non-shoulder) that actually meet full broadcast requirements. Unlike the HDV format which can only be used for ‘no more than 30% of the total programme length using approved HDV camcorders, maximum 1 minute contiguous footage’ with Discovery HD Silver for example, the EX1 and EX3 can be used for 100% of the coverage of the programme. This is a first for a camcorder of this small size and price.
How about that?

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Old May 5th, 2008, 04:07 PM   #29
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And note it's not just the HDV format that restricts the use of this type of camera, but also (from the original link) "Cameras with image sensors under ˝” ". The image sensors of the EX may be as important as recording codec in gaining it broadcast acceptance.
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