Difference and reliability between HD1 and HD10u

Allen Lu · July 26th, 2005, 10:53 AM

Leo,

Could you post more screenshots of edge enhancement on/off and sharpness on/off? I know you have one of each already but I'd like to see more samples.

Allen

Ken Hodson · July 26th, 2005, 12:22 PM

I wopuld think $200 USD plus return shipping would be fair.

Leo Bodnar · July 26th, 2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen Lu

Leo,

Could you post more screenshots of edge enhancement on/off and sharpness on/off? I know you have one of each already but I'd like to see more samples.

Allen

Allen,

I have uploaded more images shot in a hurry from my window. Very flat overcast lighting but should give an idea of possible improvement. I am very interested to hear what setting produces the most pleasing looks for people here! 100% (default) is too much by any standard.

Leo

http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/

Allen Lu · July 27th, 2005, 11:11 AM

Leo,

Hard to tell with the in-between pics once you reduced the sharpening and EE from 100%. I wish the pics are all in 16:9 since I see some artificial vertical sharpening from the stretching.

From this set of pics I prefer 25% sharpening. Anything but that video look at 100% setting. Is it really that bad? (I believe it while looking at some of my clips on the HD1). With 0% EE/sharpening I thought it look quite blurry in the 16:9 pic. Would the HD mode of the HD1 provide some more native sharpening than compared to the PD1's no EE/sharpening pics?

On your site, was the first top picture done with only EE turned off and with sharpening at default?

What I want is to tune the EE/sharpening to look like some of the still pics I've seen from the FX1. Ignoring the color, I thought that the edges off that cam is very clean, maybe even cleaner than the HD10. Is this possible because I thought the image from the HD1 is actually pretty sharp in a well lit scene. Someone had posted the same observation that in a well lit scene, the HD1 and FX1 are on par until it gets to the low light situation.

Any HD10 users out there that may take a look at Leo's site to see which picture the HD10 looks most similar to?

Allen

Ken Hodson · July 27th, 2005, 12:04 PM

I would say the HD10, to me, looks somewhere around %25 to my eyes.

Leo Bodnar · July 27th, 2005, 03:17 PM

I use EE and sharpening interchangeably because it is a single process and a single control in JVC.

It is hard to tell whether 0% + a bit of EE in post or 25% and no post EE is better. Since the camera applies EE to the raw image and then passes it through mpeg2 codec, it might be beneficial to do mpeg2 compression of already sharper image.

I suggest loading PNG images into your NL software and playing with it to see what can be achieved.

I believe HD1 should be easier to tweak then PD1 because the PD1 dowconverts image to a smaller pixel count.

For my eyes 25% looks best and 100% is really too much. I can't get rid of those black circles around lights and white objects in post. 25% is now my default setting.

I'd love to come up with some standard test target so that we Ill can shoot it and compare like for like.

First picture is the result of tuning different criteria - the values of CCD matrix coefficients. It did achive some results but in an indirect way. Now I am controlling EE directly. I plan to do some more work on colours and gamma as soon as I have repeatable standard object to shoot.

Posted 16:9 images:
100% EE - http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/100-16x9.jpg
25% EE - http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/25-16x9.jpg

Allen Lu · July 29th, 2005, 09:47 AM

Leo Bodnar -

"I have more on my plate at the moment that I can cope with - e.g. I have found how to separate EE and sharpness. "

Cool, I saw this from the other close thread to this one. Dont know if you have the time but just wondering now that EE and sharpness can be separate, what happens with only EE turned off, in terms of picture output?

I think you may be able to better the HD1 than the HD10 in it's default form, and possibly provide some HD10 owners something to think about.

Steve Nunez · August 1st, 2005, 09:33 AM

Could a screw-on lens fliter possibly help with EE?

Leo Bodnar · August 1st, 2005, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Nunez

Could a screw-on lens fliter possibly help with EE?

EE is basically a bolt-on to sharpness algorithm that adds extra sharpness if contrast gradient exceeds preset threshold. In other words, if contrast changes quickly enough (that's what happens on the edges), extra sharpness is added.

In theory adding a soft filter could help bringing overall contrst down and EE has less chance to kick in. However around the light sources and reflections it is still high.

Try adding a soft filter (proper one or stockings/smear) and then compensate with some sharpness during post.

However, image without any EE at all is just plain beautiful - like an old photograph (even though the crispness is gone.)

July 26th, 2005, 12:22 PM	#17
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I wopuld think $200 USD plus return shipping would be fair. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

July 27th, 2005, 12:04 PM	#20
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I would say the HD10, to me, looks somewhere around %25 to my eyes. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

July 27th, 2005, 03:17 PM	#21
Leo Bodnar Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26	I use EE and sharpening interchangeably because it is a single process and a single control in JVC. It is hard to tell whether 0% + a bit of EE in post or 25% and no post EE is better. Since the camera applies EE to the raw image and then passes it through mpeg2 codec, it might be beneficial to do mpeg2 compression of already sharper image. I suggest loading PNG images into your NL software and playing with it to see what can be achieved. I believe HD1 should be easier to tweak then PD1 because the PD1 dowconverts image to a smaller pixel count. For my eyes 25% looks best and 100% is really too much. I can't get rid of those black circles around lights and white objects in post. 25% is now my default setting. I'd love to come up with some standard test target so that we Ill can shoot it and compare like for like. First picture is the result of tuning different criteria - the values of CCD matrix coefficients. It did achive some results but in an indirect way. Now I am controlling EE directly. I plan to do some more work on colours and gamma as soon as I have repeatable standard object to shoot. Posted 16:9 images: 100% EE - http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/100-16x9.jpg 25% EE - http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/video/25-16x9.jpg Last edited by Leo Bodnar; July 27th, 2005 at 04:48 PM.

July 29th, 2005, 09:47 AM	#22
Allen Lu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 65	Copied from other thread Leo Bodnar - "I have more on my plate at the moment that I can cope with - e.g. I have found how to separate EE and sharpness. " Cool, I saw this from the other close thread to this one. Dont know if you have the time but just wondering now that EE and sharpness can be separate, what happens with only EE turned off, in terms of picture output? I think you may be able to better the HD1 than the HD10 in it's default form, and possibly provide some HD10 owners something to think about.

August 1st, 2005, 09:33 AM	#23
Steve Nunez Trustee Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida Posts: 1,418	Could a screw-on lens fliter possibly help with EE? __________________ Steve Nunez-New York City www.stevenunez.com

July 26th, 2005, 10:53 AM	#16
Allen Lu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 65	Leo, Could you post more screenshots of edge enhancement on/off and sharpness on/off? I know you have one of each already but I'd like to see more samples. Allen

July 27th, 2005, 11:11 AM	#19
Allen Lu Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 65	Leo, Hard to tell with the in-between pics once you reduced the sharpening and EE from 100%. I wish the pics are all in 16:9 since I see some artificial vertical sharpening from the stretching. From this set of pics I prefer 25% sharpening. Anything but that video look at 100% setting. Is it really that bad? (I believe it while looking at some of my clips on the HD1). With 0% EE/sharpening I thought it look quite blurry in the 16:9 pic. Would the HD mode of the HD1 provide some more native sharpening than compared to the PD1's no EE/sharpening pics? On your site, was the first top picture done with only EE turned off and with sharpening at default? What I want is to tune the EE/sharpening to look like some of the still pics I've seen from the FX1. Ignoring the color, I thought that the edges off that cam is very clean, maybe even cleaner than the HD10. Is this possible because I thought the image from the HD1 is actually pretty sharp in a well lit scene. Someone had posted the same observation that in a well lit scene, the HD1 and FX1 are on par until it gets to the low light situation. Any HD10 users out there that may take a look at Leo's site to see which picture the HD10 looks most similar to? Allen