On the HD200, do you shoot 24, 30 or 60 and why? at DVinfo.net

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Old May 10th, 2008, 09:31 PM   #1
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On the HD200, do you shoot 24, 30 or 60 and why?

My new 200 should be here Tuesday. I only have a couple of days to get up to speed (thankfully Tim's DVD is on its way as well!) before I need to start shooting my next project.

My question for all of you is: what frame rate do you shoot at and why? I'm thinking of shooting 60P as this is a documentary style training and prevention video and I'm not looking for a cinema look but I'm also not looking for hyper-real.

Suggestions are always appreciated.

I should point out I'm in Canada and will be shooting in HD but likely delivering in SD on DVD but want the HD footage for archives.
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Old May 11th, 2008, 01:12 AM   #2
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Quote:
I should point out I'm in Canada and will be shooting in HD but likely delivering in SD on DVD but want the HD footage for archives.
Don't we all? :)

I don't have the 200, I have the 100. But, it does do 24P of course, and I can tell you that I use it a fair bit. I shoot 24 when I'm trying to get closer to a film look. Adding a lens adapter, when tweaked just right, can also help a lot, but I need the frame rate first and foremost.

Probably the best answer to your question is for you to to experiment. Go out and shoot the same scenes (make sure you do some pans at different speeds, too) in each of the frame rates. Check out the results.

60 would be particularly helpful for slowing down footage in post. I would say it's probably the most important single feature that beats what comes on the 100/110 camera.
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Old May 11th, 2008, 03:12 PM   #3
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I have a HD-110, but I can make guess at what when I would use 60p if I had a HD200/250. Currently I shoot only 24p .

24p good for DVD/internet/HD broadcast/blueray
30p good for internet/HD broadcast/bluray
60p good for DVD/internet/HD broadcast/blueray & can still be dropped into a 24p timeline as long as the shutter speed wasn't faster than 1/60th.

So if I had a HD200/250 I would shoot most things in 60p at 1/60th to cover all of my bases UNLESS I was doing a narrative work (24p @ 1/48th), then use 60p for overcranking. 30p, I don't like for DVD at all, but would great for HD broadcast and OK for internet.
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Old May 12th, 2008, 08:32 AM   #4
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I have a 200, but still end up shooting mostly in 24p. I had expected to use 60p for most projects.

Reasons:
24p has become a defacto standard for many types of projects and clients. Personally, I think people want it it many situations where it isn't the most appropriate choice - but I've learned to go with the flow. The good news: it's the least compressed; these all (at 720p) share the same 19mbs bandwidth, and this uses that for fewer frames in the shorter GOP pattern.

30p I use least. It's neither here nor there for me visually. It doesn't have the pulldown viewed on DVD (NTSC), but it does have less motion smoothing than 60i interlaced footage, which is quite noticeable when subjects or camera are moving rapidly. It's good for internet/computer delivery, and in some cases where 24p is clearly not appropriate, but lighting conditions are not ideal.

60p I was slow to adopt because post-production was harder for awhile. I've also found that the additional compression involved can be an issue in some circumstances. Simply, it looks fine with good light and settings, but it's quicker to break down under stress. With an appropriate shutter speed, it also needs more light.
The primary reason I use it is for true slo mo overcranked playback at 24fps. It's a beautiful look, and in these situations, even some compromise in compression quality is unlikely to be seen in motion. The added MOTION resolution is instantly noticeable and visceral.
I've raised the bar however for when I will choose 60p as the base format for a project. I would really only want to go 60p with this camera for a subject where motion smoothness and information is primary, like some sports. When everything is aligned, the 60p playback looks great - but by the time it goes out to 60i NTSC, you've thrown out much of the information you compromised for, and dealing with 1/2 res interlaced "fields" that look crappy on todays flat screen technology and systems that try to recreate progressive frames.
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Old May 12th, 2008, 08:56 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Alex Humphrey View Post
60p good for DVD/internet/HD broadcast/blueray & can still be dropped into a 24p timeline as long as the shutter speed wasn't faster than 1/60th.

So if I had a HD200/250 I would shoot most things in 60p at 1/60th to cover all of my bases UNLESS I was doing a narrative work (24p @ 1/48th), then use 60p for overcranking. 30p, I don't like for DVD at all, but would great for HD broadcast and OK for internet.
I'm Curious Alex, what your reasoning for the above is. For "filmlike" overcranking you'd want a shutter at double your frame rate. In fact that's the natural choice for 60p playback too. Increasing the shutter doesn't affect import into FCP 24p or other timelines (of course anything SLOWER than 1/60th would cause duplicate frames at 60p). For me, I'd only shoot at 1/60th if low light conditions mandated it. I'll quickly increase my shutter to keep my aperture in a range suited for limiting DOF and/or the sweet spot of my lens.

As I've explained above, the compromises so far don't seem to pay for using 60p most of the time. It's still extra work in post and for NTSC output there is little if any gained, along with a more fragile image from the extra compression involved. If it's a pure HD project, and NTSC delivery wasn't needed or was purely secondary, I'd raise my bar again.
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Old May 12th, 2008, 11:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sean Adair View Post

The good news: it's the least compressed; these all (at 720p) share the same 19mbs bandwidth, and this uses that for fewer frames in the shorter GOP pattern.
Sean its my understanding that anything recorded uses the JVC ProHD 7-GOP pattern. (on an HD100 for example, I think the super encoder uses 12)

Are you sure its getting more of that bandwidth? I was given the impression all this time that it always records at least 30P to tape, but removes redundant frames on capture or playback, kinda like varicam but during capture instead of using a pulldown extraction tool.

that would certainly be a plus if I read into it wrong.
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Old May 13th, 2008, 05:01 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Sean Adair View Post
I'm Curious Alex, what your reasoning for the above is. For "filmlike" overcranking you'd want a shutter at double your frame rate. In fact that's the natural choice for 60p playback too. Increasing the shutter doesn't affect import into FCP 24p or other timelines (of course anything SLOWER than 1/60th would cause duplicate frames at 60p). For me, I'd only shoot at 1/60th if low light conditions mandated it. I'll quickly increase my shutter to keep my aperture in a range suited for limiting DOF and/or the sweet spot of my lens.

As I've explained above, the compromises so far don't seem to pay for using 60p most of the time. It's still extra work in post and for NTSC output there is little if any gained, along with a more fragile image from the extra compression involved. If it's a pure HD project, and NTSC delivery wasn't needed or was purely secondary, I'd raise my bar again.
Ahh.... I had to re-read your question and post to figure out what I was talking about....

ok...

I was meaning that if I didn't know what eventual format (BUYER) would be for a project I would shoot 60p format so I could have the best source for eventual distribution on to 24p, 30p, 60i or 60p. I would shoot 60p @ 1/60th so I could drop into a 24p normal timeline and still keep fairly decent motion blur and few to none would be the wiser that it wasn't 24p 1/48th. It also could mean the same footage could be dropped into a 60i timeline for interlaced conversion as well. Also if there was some reason for a 30p output (for web?) it would also work just fine.

Basically meaning I could cover all current and future bases with the best possible source material.
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Old May 14th, 2008, 11:59 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Mark Silva View Post
Sean its my understanding that anything recorded uses the JVC ProHD 7-GOP pattern. (on an HD100 for example, I think the super encoder uses 12)

Are you sure its getting more of that bandwidth? I was given the impression all this time that it always records at least 30P to tape, but removes redundant frames on capture or playback, kinda like varicam but during capture instead of using a pulldown extraction tool.

that would certainly be a plus if I read into it wrong.
Mark - I'm going to answer this from memory, so I stand prepared to be corrected. As I understand it, The HD 200 uses the super-encoder for all frame rates, both cameras use 19mbs for all 720p HDV recording, the 12 frame GOP is used for 60p, and 7 GOP is used for 24p and 30 p. However, 24p is not recording 30 actual frames. The codec uses "flags" to repeat existing frames into a 30 frame shell. When recording on a DR-HD100 for example, 24p footage takes only 80% of the drive space of 30p footage. Of course with tape, speed/storage doesn't change. I'm not sure if this extra "bandwidth" per frame between 24p and 30p is actually utilized by the compression codec, but 60p is definitely that much more compressed over all. This effect is diminished to a large extent by the fact that the individual frames are going past much quicker, so artifacts in an individual frame are less visible as a whole. Another way of looking at it is that the longer GOP of 60p is measured in frames, but the number of "index" frames in the GOP per SECOND is not that different. So inspection of a still frame may show more compression issues, but that has to be put into perspective with it's frame rate. In general, some artifacts seen in still frames are not noticeable in motion - however some are a real problem in motion. In 60p I've had counter-intuitive issues with large areas of the same color (especially darker saturated colors) that get a moving "mosquito" pattern and blockiness that is very visible on playback (and deteriorates even more if re-compressed again in mpeg2 such as to a SD DVD). Now that I understand it a bit more, I've found ways to minimize it, but it's still a worry overall, making 60p NOT the universal choice.
Regarding the shutter speed at 60p, I follow you Alex. For the 3 examples of conversion you mention 1/60th makes sense. However, given the compromise of additional compression, I would try hard to avoid those situations where hard-earned extra progressive frames are dumped or stripped into interlaced fields, and shoot natively in those formats if possible. If 60p or overcranked is definitely the aim, then a faster shutter speed might be a bit more natural, but I think it's a subtle thing. Conversion to 1080i is probably best served from 720 60p, but even then, I'd be asking myself if the programming really needs the additional motion information.
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Last edited by Sean Adair; May 14th, 2008 at 12:44 PM.
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