Is 720p Real High Definition ?

[Steven Gotz]

Originally Posted by Steven White

Will the JVC HD100 produce better quality images than the FX1?

One thing that people might be forgetting that I would like to remind everyone about....

We are going to have a blast shooting with the new JVC camera. People will try to protect their pride by claiming the Z1 is still as good, and others will praise the JVC as the second coming. OK. That is inevitable. But remember, it is a new camera providing new opportunities and new challenges. This stuff is still fun, isn't it? I realize that I am merely a hobbyist with expensive tastes, and many of the members here are professionals trying to get the correct tool at the correct price to make a living. But please, tell me that you guys don't get a rush when a new camera challenges for first place in your toolchest!

If you guys don't like playing with the new toys, tools, whatever, then why in God's name are you on this forum and in the business you are in? Isn't the goal to get the best shots and deliver the best footage you can, at a price you can justify?

In other words, cheer up! Smile, whistle and hum happy tunes. A new camera is coming. And it will be something to play with, test, read about, argue about. Hey, if it isn't fun at least some of the time, get a new job.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Steven White

and in order to get the Panasonic camera running as anything more than a miniDV camera, you need to spend nearly double the price of the Z1U/HD100 and triple the price of the FX1.

Sure wish you'd quit saying that, as it's completely untrue.

You could use it as a high-def camera on day 1, without a P2 card, if you're willing to plug in a firewire cable to a laptop or desktop. And while that's not quite as convenient as not being cabled, it certainly is a common thing -- people have been running cables to monitors for decades, so a cable is no big hassle.

And if you don't want to use a laptop, there will be a FireStore option. Might cost $800, but then you're totally mobile.

Yes you'll be dumping footage off to hard disks, but those hard disks cost less, per minute, than HD tape does. Or you could burn it off to DVD-R, which costs less per minute than DV tape does.

Your argument about multiple firestores and multiple P2 stores and multiple P2 cards just aren't valid for most shooting circumstances. If you want to shoot a four-hour event, this might not be the right camera. But to take that circumstance and then extrapolate forward to declare that "if you want it running as anything more than a miniDV camera" costing triple the price of an FX1, is just not true at all. You can have it running as more than a miniDV camera on day one, by using a $10 firewire cable. Or an $800 FireStore.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

I didn't realize we were moving towards a discussion of JVC vs Sony, ... But just because it's PCM audio doesn't automatically make it better. There are other, substantially more significant variables related to the quality of the audio, either from the mic or from mic input.

That discussion would be irrelevant anyway, at least as concerns the Z1 vs. the HD100, as the HD100 only offers compressed audio as well.

You'd have to wait for a future version of ProHD, on a future camera, to start talking about PCM audio.

You're suggesting that Mpeg1 Layer II audio is bad?

Certainly not as good as uncompressed, of course, but that's irrelevant because...

for him to suggest it is bad would be counterproductive to his argument that the JVC is the better camera, since the JVC HD100 also uses MPEG-1 Layer II audio. There is no PCM or uncompressed audio option on the HD100.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

That discussion would be irrelevant anyway, at least as concerns the Z1 vs. the HD100, as the HD100 only offers compressed audio as well.

I don't know where you heard this. At the JVC lunch for the press the Japan PM described exactly how we can use the PCM audio on the HD100.

There is no way a masking audio system can deliver the same sound quality as PCM. Which is why I won't listen to MP3. The computer is deciding what the average ear might not be able to hear. Sorry, I'll let my ears make that decision. You show me any major record level that records with MPEG-1 Layer 2?

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

And while that's not quite as convenient as not being cabled, it certainly is a common thing -- people have been running cables to monitors for decades, so a cable is no big hassle.

Come on! I'm going to carry a camcorder tethered to a HDD into the field? I'm old enoough to remember when we carried a camera tethered to a VTR. Sorry, that not what I want I want to go back to!

If Panasonic is now trying to claim you can record to HDD -- then why not build an HDD camcorder. What point is there to P2?

[Luis Caffesse]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I don't know where you heard this. At the JVC lunch for the press the Japan PM described exactly how we can use the PCM audio on the HD100.

From the JVC website:

"Professional XLR connectors are provided for each audio channel. The GY-HD100U records CD quality audio at 384Kbps in the MPEG1 Layer 2 format. Independent input level controls are provided for each channel. Audio level indicators are visible in the viewfinder and on the flip-out LCD display."

Check out JVC's HD100 "Technical Description" Page here.

Seems like a pretty reliable source to me.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

There is no way a masking audio system can deliver the same sound quality as PCM

I would tend to agree with you Steve.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

"So obviously, we can never shoot a 24fps movie about sports by your logic! Since we know sports are featured in movies all the time -- shot with a lower frame-rate than 720p30 -- your response is obviously simply incorrect.

What you saw was judder introduced by an incompetent cameraperson."

No, what I saw was temporal delay. The cameraperson(s) were all reasonably well known guys that shoot NBA every week. Easy to target them because they're supposedly the variable.

As I said, you saw judder (there is no such thing as "temporal delay" caused by incompitent VIDEO shooters. Any qualified filmmaker could have shot both 24fps and 30fps and it would look perfect.

And the HD100 will look even better because a videomaker will be able to get good results.

[Luis Caffesse]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Come on! I'm going to carry a camcorder tethered to a HDD into the field?

As Barry already mentioned, Firestore is planning on releasing a HDD recording option for the HVX. Their products are camera mounted, so no need to be 'tethered' to anything if that's a concern for you. I think Barry was just listing every possible option, and being tethered is an option that some people don't mind. For example, I think many HD100 users will put up with tethering themselves to computers in order to record the 720P60 option from the component outputs, seeing as the camera can't record 60P to tape.

Originally Posted by Steven Mullen

If Panasonic is now trying to claim you can record to HDD -- then why not build an HDD camcorder. What point is there to P2?

They are not claiming anything other than Focus Enhancements being a Panasonic partner. This gives people the option to shoot on hard drives with a third party device, and I for one am all for options.

What point is there to P2?

P2 cards are much more rugged, reliable, consume less power, and will have a longer life than hard drives. So there are definitely advantages. Again, it's about options and what level of 'risk' you are willing to shoot with.

Many may not see the benefits of P2 cards as being worth the financial investment (like yourself), and so for them there will be hard drive options.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

There is no way a masking audio system can deliver the same sound quality as PCM. Which is why I won't listen to MP3. The computer is deciding what the average ear might not be able to hear. Sorry, I'll let my ears make that decision. You show me any major record level that records with MPEG-1 Layer 2?

Since I'm barely containing my laughter, and trying to maintain a modicum of decency in this thread, I'll just submit that you are woefullyuninformed when it comes to audio compression and the human ear. Next thing you're gonna suggest is that you're past the age of 35 and you can hear the frequencies that matter in this compression format. Again, since I dont' know this camera, I can't argue the merits of the camera specifically. I can very competently argue the audio merits of either PCM or MPEG 1 layer II. Aside from seeing it on a scope, spectrum analyzer, and sample display, I've also listened to it on our Hothouse monitors, our Mackie 626 system, and on a pair of Etymotic ER4's. While MPEG 1/layerII is not optimal, it's superior to most compression schemes, especially at the bitrate of 384kpbs. JVC's own folks support this, by the way....So, your passion for the camera goes a little far afield from theirs.

PCM doesn't mean squat. It's the converters, samplerate, bitrate that count. PCM can hold virtually any bitrate/sample rate. But the quality of converters in MOST of these cameras are extremely weak. No one is using the Cirrus, which is the industry standard, unless you're looking to Apogee or high end Digi.

And in theory, MPEG 1/Layer II audio can support 24/96 at a lower bitrate, whereas the camera converters can't. PCM or not, if it's got weak converters, the audio will sound less than optimal. The only "real" benefit to PCM is in the hands of people who don't know sound, there is a little more forgiveness in post in certain frequency ranges and processes.

Arguing that the eventual PCM of the JVC is substantially better than MPEG 1/Layer II is arguing with the wind. And at the moment, all you're arguing is theory.

BTW, I'm still a Virgin Records recording artist and producer. I'd say that qualifies as a major label relationship.

[Steven White]

Sure wish you'd quit saying that, as it's completely untrue.

Okay Barry, I'll quit.

No ill will or angst about it - but the way I see it we're talking about a hand-held camcorder, and the way I'll always do the math on pricing is that method which provides the same functional use as every other hand-held camcorder.

I don't see archiving as part of the cost of the camera - that's part of the cost of operation. But in terms of actually getting a camera that can shoot as the designers intended, I think it's perfectly reasonable to place P2 cards, hard drives and laptops into that up-front cost.

For example, I think many HD100 users will put up with tethering themselves to computers in order to record the 720P60 option from the component outputs

Is there even a device that does this? No one I've heard of is doing that for the FX1/Z1U to get uncompressed 1080i.

I'd say that qualifies as a major label relationship.

<- not going to debate audio issues with DSE. I've been to his website and looked around. Consumers are obviously really concerned with audio quality - that's for sure the reason MP3 players are outselling SACDs. ;)

-Steve

[Steven Gotz]

I sure wish I could hear the difference between a Wav file and a MP3. I really do. But even with a decent set of speakers, which I have, I can't hear it. So I guess I am a pretty typical consumer.

[Steven White]

I can hear the difference on my main sound system when I sit down and put them both on and listen closely. I can't really distinguish between Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 though, save the increase in volume of the latter.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

I don't know where you heard this. At the JVC lunch for the press the Japan PM described exactly how we can use the PCM audio on the HD100.

I'm getting my info from JVC's website.
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/t...&feature_id=02

Here's the quote about audio:
2 XLR Audio Inputs
Professional XLR connectors are provided for each audio channel. The GY-HD100U records CD quality audio at 384Kbps in the MPEG1 Layer 2 format. Independent input level controls are provided for each channel. Audio level indicators are visible in the viewfinder and on the flip-out LCD display.

EDIT: Luis beat me to it, and I guess I can't delete a post... so, sorry for the duplicate.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Come on! I'm going to carry a camcorder tethered to a HDD into the field? I'm old enoough to remember when we carried a camera tethered to a VTR. Sorry, that not what I want I want to go back to!

And yet that's where things are now, if you want to use the latest and greatest. The Viper FilmStream requires it (or, of course, you can use a newly-introduced solid-state magazine, which records 10 minutes... sounds an awful lot like a P2 card, except it costs $59,000!) You don't *have* to use a Viper, of course... you could just use HDCAM. But the HDCAM cameras are not a Viper, so if you want the better quality, you pay the piper (by having a cable and an external recorder).

Being tethered to something is not all bad -- it's a rare shoot indeed where I won't bring DV Rack along. It's not preferable to be tethered, of course. And I'm not saying it's preferable. I'm just saying it's possible. For some workflows it will be totally appropriate. For some it isn't.

If cables to recorders are so bad, surely you'd agree that the JVC's 60P uncompressed output is then a useless feature, right? Because you'd need to be cabled to a computer and a hard disk array in order to take advantage of that, which would be far more inconvenient than just having a Firestore or an off-the-shelf laptop.

If Panasonic is now trying to claim you can record to HDD -- then why not build an HDD camcorder. What point is there to P2?

Panasonic's not trying to "claim" anything. I'm just pointing out that the firewire port supports active streaming, so if you want to record to hard disk, you can.

[Raymond Krystof]

I don't wish to address the debate of which is better, however this link may or may not clarify which audio format the HD100 can record.

http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/...ohd/index.html (answer 6)

What isn't clear to me is if the 4 channels are recorded simultaneously or is 2 channel audio user selectable between PCM or MPEG-1 Layer 2?

edit: I realized that the topic or the link is addressing "what is ProHD". Thus I guess this doesn't mean that the HD100 has both or these capabilities, only that JVC may utilize either or both of these capabilities within their concept of "ProHD".