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Old May 25th, 2006, 09:14 AM   #31
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You're very welcome John.
I'm glad this has been of help.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 02:25 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
Hey Enzo, e tu lavori a Hollywood e Cinecitta' ? ;)!
Sě, Paolo, e gli Studi di Eclair (FR) anche!


Quote:
So, you're keeping the detail level quite high, eh? I'm interested in this. I found the level detail too "aggressive" and I'm constantly shifting between MIN and OFF. ...I'm aiming at making the HD100 as close as possible to film so I didn't check the values against broadcast levels. ...I never touched the skin tone circuit as I don't want to have other factors changing the parameters out of my control. I'm glad that you mentioned, it confirms my fears
I set the detail depending on the frame, and no, the scene file(s) I use
are well within the ATSC broadcast legal envelope. Yours will be just about
the same. Generally, the Skin Detail setting (on) will desaturate reds somewhat and
spike a very narrow range in the yellow spectrum down.

You are using the HD100 to match film, I only use it for broadcast. I'm
fortunate enough to use film cameras for film. But, I will post more later
on several on set comparison tests ("on the fly") I have done with the HD100
vs. a S16 Arri, A Pana Genesis, and several Arri and Pana film cams, plus
the VariCam and CineAlta.

I think JVC is just starting to scratch the surface as far as making the HD
series a "real" film camera alternative. And I think the split eyepiece is a
good indication of that. It makes a perfect jumping off spot to add an
eyepiece extender so the cam can be used on a gear head.

For a straight to DVD 16:9 movie, you are not going to find a better cam
under 25K, period. I have tested all the other HD cams, about 40 hours worth
on each (about 80 on the HVX200), and they are all great for the price point
they are selling at, but the JVC is better than any of them (in my
opinion -- more on this later also).

Can't post clips or even frames from my Cannes footage due to copyright and
embargo issues, but if you saw the CNN or any of the US entertainment
based shows broadcast footage of "The Da Vinci Code" opening day, the
Steadicam coverage of all the principals walking up the stairs and then into
the press crowd is all my operating (using a HD100 and Steadicam F-24). We
were on a pool feed, and ours was the only crew with a Steadicam.
The F-24 is a perfect fit for the HD100 (used in both high and low configs),
and even after a few hours of continual use, I still had legs :)

I see that someone has a thread entitled "Turn Power Off Turn Back On
Later". My HD100 must have been made in Italy, it says "Turn power off,
have a cup of espresso, turn back on later".

L'azione non significa pizzicare di fermata, significa appena il pizzicotto
piů veloce.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 02:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Looks like we have to wait for Enzo to return and explain why he slightly reduced color and slightly increased red. I wonder if that was his taste in color -- or if there was a technical reason.
Steve,

No, it's not my taste in color that determines my color settings, it's what
I know the output will look like in the broadcast envelope. I am constantly
changing settings (on all the cams I use, not just the HD100) to match my
frame. Paolo's TC settings are a good starting point, but the settings
always have to be optimized for the frame you're shooting.

I reduce both color AND _red_. Lucky for us (and JVC), the ATSC standard is
pretty loose right now, but as you already mentioned, it has a pretty strong
magenta bias.

When you add broadcast engineers that have tons of NTSC broadcast experience
and are just starting to work within the ATSC output frame to the mix, you get a strong
red bias and oversaturated colors along with a lower gamma curve. The HD100
loves to shot more on the toe of the curve than most video cams, and I think
this was a good approach for JVC to take. The downside is that failing to
have enough HD experience, the broadcast engineer will set the mid point IRE
lower than he/she would for NTSC output.

As I do with film labs (I set the MY mid exposure to THEIR mid point light
for the entire production), I am starting to set my color and detail
settings according to the broadcast venue that is airing the footage -- when
I can.

Quote:
For example, we know we can have very saturated red using HD. But what happens when we broadcast an NTSC or PAL version of an HD production?

How about when we make an NTSC or PAL DVD?

Does the conversion from HD to SD colorspace automatically reduce chroma saturation IF it is necessary to reduce it?
Yes and no, the color space changes on a HD to SD NTSC broadcast convert
(higher gamma curve, more desaturated colors), but very little on a HD to SD
PAL convert (mostly a little higher gamma curve). It makes a fantastic
convert to DVD in a 16:9 frame. Really a strong but little mentioned aspect
of the HD100. Of course we all know NOT to shoot the HD100 in 4:3 SD mode,
it's not what the camera was designed for

The HD100 is not really a true broadcast cam, but it's the best HD cam that
can be used for HDTV 16:9 broadcast output available for under 25K.
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Old June 5th, 2006, 05:41 PM   #34
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>>Can't post clips or even frames from my Cannes footage due to copyright and
embargo issues<<

Embargo issues?
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Old June 5th, 2006, 06:10 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Carney
Embargo issues?
The French never forgave us for the "Freedom fries" deal, this is their retailiation: no footage for you!

;)
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Old June 5th, 2006, 09:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Carney
>>Can't post clips or even frames from my Cannes footage due to copyright and
embargo issues<<

Embargo issues?
Ciao Joe,

I know, it's a very confusing term :)

I work in commercial broadcasting, and on studio funded films, so basically my output is on a "work for hire" basis. I don't own what I shoot, and most of the time, I don't even see the tape I have shot. It goes right to the broadcast outlet I am shooting for (but I do check my return video a lot :).

An "embargo" in commercial broadcasting is a condition placed on the coverage you are shooting in exchange for a studio (or a celebrity's rep or agent) giving you access to an event or personality.

In the case of Cannes, I was shooting for French commercial TV, Italian commercial TV, and doing a pool feed for several broadcast wire-services (domestic and international).

Besides the common sense copyright issues (I don't have any rights to what I shoot on work-for-hire gigs), there was a Sony sanctioned embargo (condition for Sony arranging access) on all Da Vinci Code coverage to the US domestic market because it was an Access Hollywood broadcast exclusive for the North American market.

Embargos are usually time, venue, or broadcast overlay specific (can't be shown before a specific date, or by a particular outlet, or on the Web, or a specific geographical area). In addition to the above, almost all the Cannes events (except for the table interviews which are pretty useless) had an embargo against any Web use of any kind on their granted access coverage (except for a few pre-approved outlets).
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Old June 5th, 2006, 09:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
The French never forgave us for the "Freedom fries" deal, this is their retailiation: no footage for you!

;)
Hahaha, so true, but I think it's the "Le Big Mac" that done us in :)

It basically depends on what side of the pond you're on.

In America we say "We saved France's a** during the 2nd World War".

In France they say "We saved America's a** during the Revolutionary War".

Like all things, your point of view is based on which side of the camera you're on.
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Old June 6th, 2006, 12:06 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé
Sì, Paolo, e gli Studi di Eclair (FR) anche!
Miseria!

Quote:
You are using the HD100 to match film, I only use it for broadcast. I'm
fortunate enough to use film cameras for film. But, I will post more later
on several on set comparison tests ("on the fly") I have done with the HD100
vs. a S16 Arri, A Pana Genesis, and several Arri and Pana film cams, plus
the VariCam and CineAlta.
That will be very interesting. Just to be clear, I know well that the HD100 cannot touch the quality and resolution of film. Any Arri camera will beat the crap out of the HD100. No argument here :)
My interest i the HD100 is based on my "digital background" (20 year of software development) and the fact that, for what I want to do, it's good enough. I might add the M2 along the way.

Quote:
For a straight to DVD 16:9 movie, you are not going to find a better cam
under 25K, period.
Good to know!
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Last edited by Paolo Ciccone; June 6th, 2006 at 02:54 AM.
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Old June 6th, 2006, 12:29 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé
Hahaha, so true, but I think it's the "Le Big Mac" that done us in :)
What about the Royale with Cheese?
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Old June 6th, 2006, 04:56 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
Just to be clear, I know well that the HD100 cannot touch the quality and resolution of film. Any Arri camera will beat the crap out of the HD100. No argument here :)
INHD has been showing films from the `70s and `80s. I've been feeling a bit guilty watching these in HD and feeling "video ain't ever gonna look like this." The wonderful texture of grain just feels right. The colors are so great.

I watched "Umbellas of Cherburg" last night. Would love to re-see Godard's "La Chinoise" with each room painted a super saturated color.

Or, maybe I just like the way the French and Italians used color. "Juliet of the Spirits," for example. I supose one could try setting an HD100 to a high level of saturation, designing sets, and adding grain in post.
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Old June 6th, 2006, 09:49 AM   #41
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paolo, how to print out a color chart for test

paolo,
may i ask u a stupid question.
I m interested on calibrate my JVC to color correct and exposure correct
how can i print a chart? or any free downlaod?

i use freeware virtualdub and a free filter to do vectorscope.

however i main concern is to preserve the maximum of dynamic range for possible film output ( not cine-like gamma) so a maximum of DR is able to give me room to ajust with
I also noticed that both MAC and PC are on 2.2 gamma
any difference to the V3?
i am still using V2 as i m happy with it.
i disable all color because i prefer corect it at post

thanks
JY
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Old June 6th, 2006, 10:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Yamamoto
paolo,
may i ask u a stupid question.
I m interested on calibrate my JVC to color correct and exposure correct
how can i print a chart? or any free downlaod?
Hi John.
The reason charts like the ones made by DSC cost that much is because they are printed with color accurate printers and they are verified with very sophisticated analysis tools in order to check that the charts return the expected amount and type of light that will position a given color in the right position in your vectorscope. You can't print it on you inkjet, sorry :)

Quote:
I also noticed that both MAC and PC are on 2.2 gamma any difference to the V3?
Actually PCs and Mac use different gammas. My configuration for the camera is indipendent of the computer you use, it is based on a calibrated system. If you plan on distributing your footage only to computer viewers you'll have to do your own testing on both platforms and decided for the right compromise when color correcting.

Quote:
i am still using V2 as i m happy with it. i disable all color because i prefer corect it at post
Not sure I understood this.

Take care.
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:44 PM   #43
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Royale with Cheese

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Ahonen
What about the Royale with Cheese?
The French love the Royale with Cheese. They use these little guillotine
cutters to chop them in half :)
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Old June 8th, 2006, 01:56 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone
Miseria!
Porca!

Quote:
That will be very interesting. Just to be clear, I know well that the HD100 cannot touch the quality and resolution of film. Any Arri camera will beat the crap out of the HD100. No argument here :)
My interest i the HD100 is based on my "digital background" (20 year of software development) and the fact that, for what I want to do, it's good enough.!
Paolo, of course I didn't think you though a $100K+ cam is ever going to
compete with a $6K cam.

Hahaha, wish it could. But the differences are not all that great as long as
you work within the limitations of the HD100. The biggest factor is the
skill and experience of the DP.

When I get some real time I will post my impressions of the on-the-fly tests
between the various film cams and the JVC unit, but here's something to whet
your appetite, the JVC output comes very, very close (intercut close) to the
VariCam. You could probably do an A - B test on the edited footage intercut
from both cams and not be able to tell which is which.

Film is not a "look", it's a medium. I think what most people are looking
for is something that looks other than video (because of the bias against,
which is not totally warranted, but exists because of all the schlocky
projects produced in the past on video). I believe the proper term should be a
non-video look. My biggest problem with any video cam for film use is the
DOF issue. When I set up a shot, my first question for the director is "what
do you want to see". DOF is one of the most important tools a DP has at
their disposal, and giving it up means losing one of our most important
aspects in telling a story.

Quote:
I might add the M2 along the way.
Ahhh, you mean a Redrock. I though you were talking about a new camera, duh... I have used the Mini35 but not the Redrock. The Mini35 (besides being a PITA to use), still has pretty deep focus when shooting at a good working stop (around f/4) with the stock lens unless you are in the longer focal lengths. The 13mm lens is even worse (you can use the macro to throw it out more, but using the macro ring to adjust focus/DOF gives you a very narrow focus plane). How does the Redrock adapter stack up?

Also, I should have made it clearer, my only use of the HD100 in covering
Cannes was on the Steadicam. I never did really get to use it or the 2
HVX200 we had with us (to be used as tape up, put anywhere cams) much. All
my Cannes broadcast output (except for the Steadicam shots) was in PAL
Digibeta 16:9 format.
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Last edited by Enzo Giobbé; June 8th, 2006 at 07:24 PM.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 06:41 PM   #45
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Enzo, I didn't see this till today. Sorry for the late reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enzo Giobbé
but here's something to whet
your appetite, the JVC output comes very, very close (intercut close) to the
VariCam. You could probably do an A - B test on the edited footage intercut
from both cams and not be able to tell which is which.
That's impressive.
Quote:
DOF is one of the most important tools a DP has at
their disposal, and giving it up means losing one of our most important
aspects in telling a story.
And that's the big issue with video cameras. I gues that when people refer to the "film look" they refer to the film-style lighting+shallow DOF+24fps cadence.

Quote:
How does the Redrock adapter stack up?
Don't know directly. My only experience has been with the Mini35. It seems that the M2 is actually more "finnicky" than the Mini35. That's because it uses the stock lens and allows you to use, for example, Nikon SLR primes in order to get shallower DOF. I'm not too crazy about the design (stock lens+additional lens+upside down image) but in absence of other options (the Mini35 is way out of range for me) this can work. Of course I could rent the Mini35 when it's the time but for the cost of the rental (2 weeks) you can buy the M2. Still not decided about it, just exploring the possibilities.

Cheers!
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