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Old December 11th, 2006, 06:06 PM   #1
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FYI: ProHD uncompressed clip (NEW)

I'm offering this uncompressed sequence (once again) to those who wish to see what uncompressed images look like from an HD-100. The last time I posted, I put up a 2vuy file. People complained (of all things!) that 2vuy is an old Pinnacle codec. Actually 2vuy is not an old Pinnacle codec and in fact the same wrapper Aja puts on their uncompressed 422 (in both 8 bit and 10 bit varieties).

Since nobody seems to work with Blackmagic codecs here, I've placed the file up on the server for a short time in an uncompressed sequence (which everyone should be able to use).

Click here for zipped sequence (625MB).

The original 2vuy file is no longer valid on the server.
Regards,

S.Noe
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Old December 11th, 2006, 06:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen L. Noe
I'm offering this uncompressed sequence (once again) to those who wish to see what uncompressed images look like from an HD-100. The last time I posted, I put up a 2vuy file. People complained (of all things!) that 2vuy is an old Pinnacle codec. Actually 2vuy is not an old Pinnacle codec and in fact the same wrapper Aja puts on their uncompressed 422 (in both 8 bit and 10 bit varieties).
I believe you are confusing the Pinnacle 2VUY codec with the Apple 8bit 2vuy codec and the Cinewave 2Vuy codec.

As I explained before the Pinnacle 2VUY is totally proprietary and has a frame size of 720x512, totally proprietary and legacy for the old Pinnacle Liquid hardware.

It appears Liquid still uses it internally, but if it is fused out it is totally and unawsomely unreadable by any standard program such as Procoder, which will read virtually anything that is installed on the system or is in any kind of non-proprietary format.

The Pinnacle/Avid 2VUY uncompressed is not 2vuy or 2Vuy.

Apparently, according to some lengthy and retro white papers the extra lines in the 512 frame are used internally by the Pinnacle/Avid software and hardware.

Liquid does DV well and apparently it is one of the only solutions for JVC's ProHD. But otherwise, the myth of Liquid is highly mythologized.

And I have been told the rationale for Avid not officially supporting ProHD with Liquid, but I think that it is relevant that Avid currently does not officially support ProHD with Liquid.

I have BlackMagic codecs on my machine and the codecs are freely downloadable, so I don't know what the problem would be with those.
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Old December 11th, 2006, 06:37 PM   #3
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For anyone interested, I've posted the clip.....
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Old December 12th, 2006, 03:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Walker
And I have been told the rationale for Avid not officially supporting ProHD with Liquid, but I think that it is relevant that Avid currently does not officially support ProHD with Liquid.
To other forum users: this has been discussed before and they should take Jack's comments with a pinch of salt. It is simply not true that Avid does not officially support HDV1/ProHD with Liquid. ProHD is JVC's name for its range of HDV products which use the HDV1 standard. HDV1 IS officially supported by Avid with Liquid at both 30 and 25fps. You can confirm this on Avid's website by looking at the product description, support guides, reference guide, system requirement details and the product brochure. If anyone out there is considering Liquid, do not be put off by Jack's comments. HDV1 works very well indeed at 25 and 30 fps and is supported by Avid. 24fps is not supported officially but we have it on good authority that it works well also.

I have solid personal experience with the codec issue. Yes, it's a proprietary codec but - as I said before - Quicktime Pro can give you a work-around and it does work very well with the traditional Avid apps. When Liquid is installed on the same system as Liquid, both QT pro and Avid apps (AXPro/MC/Symph) will read and write 2VUY files even though ProCoder will not. Don't let Jack put you off here either!

Sorry for the side-track, Stephen. I just thought it was important not to put accurate information out there for those looking for a solution to working with HDV1.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 10:38 AM   #5
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Stephen,

Just to let you know the 2vuy format for Liquid is it's own format and not just a codec. The files are actually "file.2vuy" and not "file.avi" or "file.mov". These 2vuy files do use the same channel structure as some other codecs but they are not in a AVI or quicktime wrapper but instead just a rare raw 2vuy format. Avid has special quicktime codecs which are installed when we install Liquid that allow quicktime or any application that can read quicktime files to load the 2vuy files as quicktime files. Without these codecs from Liquid quicktime or any other application has no idea what a "file.2vuy" is.

These formats are very hard to work with because the codecs from Avid are for read only and not export codecs. There is a way to export as a 2vuy from quicktime pro and After Effects but you have to use a special export format and not a normal quicktime render codec in order for it to work.

So without having Liquid installed there is no way for any program to know what a 2vuy file is because it is a totally different format and not just a codec.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 10:44 AM   #6
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Hi Stephen,
I understand you recorded component out of the camera but what did you record onto, what kind of deck, what format?
thanks
Jack
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Old December 12th, 2006, 10:59 AM   #7
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I use Blackmagic codecs! :)
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Old December 12th, 2006, 11:08 AM   #8
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Me too. It works just fine with almost identical file sizes for 2vuy 8-bit.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 12:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Walker
And I have been told the rationale for Avid not officially supporting ProHD with Liquid, but I think that it is relevant that Avid currently does not officially support ProHD with Liquid.
Here is a link to the only statement by an Avid employee that I have seen regarding the the support for "ProHD" by Liquid:
http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/post/92587.aspx

Here is the text:
"The JVC support is in a category we call "implemented but not yet tested". The engineers have done the work. The QA team has not completely tested it. Product Marketing has not yet added it to the official feature list."

It is my understanding that the employee who wrote this no longer works for Avid. However, it is also my clear understanding that this had not changed. If it has changed, please give me a link to to an Avid website page or official statement that contradicts this and puts ProHD support in the "officially supported" column.

There has been no question that Liquid does unofficially support the JVC format. In fact, Liquid seems to be only one of two Editors that have end to end support for JVC's format.

Also, in some countries JVC has bundled Liquid with the JVC cameras. Since the only choice for bundling seem to be Liquid and Edius at the moment, and Canopus isn't likely to get in on this kind of deal, Liquid is the only realistic option for such a package.

Nevertheless, the support within Liquid for the JVC format is not official.

Yes, it has been "semi-officially" announced that a 7.2 update for Liquid may be out in the first half of next year. This may fix some of the bugs in Liquid and it may make ProHD support official. However, it's not here yet.

I think incorrect info on a topic should be corrected -- on both sides.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 01:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Smet
Stephen,

Just to let you know the 2vuy format for Liquid is it's own format and not just a codec. The files are actually "file.2vuy" and not "file.avi" or "file.mov". These 2vuy files do use the same channel structure as some other codecs but they are not in a AVI or quicktime wrapper but instead just a rare raw 2vuy format. Avid has special quicktime codecs which are installed when we install Liquid that allow quicktime or any application that can read quicktime files to load the 2vuy files as quicktime files. Without these codecs from Liquid quicktime or any other application has no idea what a "file.2vuy" is.

These formats are very hard to work with because the codecs from Avid are for read only and not export codecs. There is a way to export as a 2vuy from quicktime pro and After Effects but you have to use a special export format and not a normal quicktime render codec in order for it to work.

So without having Liquid installed there is no way for any program to know what a 2vuy file is because it is a totally different format and not just a codec.
The 2vuy file structure is only a wrapper for the uncompressed sequence so that the entire capture can be tidy. Inside of the 2vuy is nothing more than the sequence of frames. Very similar to QT using it's wrapper for TGA sequence to create a MOV.

Anyway, what I gave was the uncompressed sequence (which equals the 2vuy file). Anyone should be able to use the sequence to test for CC with the uncompressed signal.

This sequence was sourced on HD-100. The HD-250's A/D converter is miles above the HD-100's great encoder (especially in the blue channel) so you can expect even better results from the HD-SDI from the HD-250 (and probably the HD-200).
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Old December 12th, 2006, 01:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Walker
Here is a link to the only statement by an Avid employee that I have seen regarding the the support for "ProHD" by Liquid:
http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/post/92587.aspx

Here is the text:
"The JVC support is in a category we call "implemented but not yet tested". The engineers have done the work. The QA team has not completely tested it. Product Marketing has not yet added it to the official feature list."

It is my understanding that the employee who wrote this no longer works for Avid. However, it is also my clear understanding that this had not changed. If it has changed, please give me a link to to an Avid website page or official statement that contradicts this and puts ProHD support in the "officially supported" column.

There has been no question that Liquid does unofficially support the JVC format. In fact, Liquid seems to be only one of two Editors that have end to end support for JVC's format.

Also, in some countries JVC has bundled Liquid with the JVC cameras. Since the only choice for bundling seem to be Liquid and Edius at the moment, and Canopus isn't likely to get in on this kind of deal, Liquid is the only realistic option for such a package.

Nevertheless, the support within Liquid for the JVC format is not official.

Yes, it has been "semi-officially" announced that a 7.2 update for Liquid may be out in the first half of next year. This may fix some of the bugs in Liquid and it may make ProHD support official. However, it's not here yet.

I think incorrect info on a topic should be corrected -- on both sides.
What you keep missing is that it's not 24, it's 59.94.

As I wrote you, the reason they haven't officially said 24 is because their is no way to create a 24p DVD from the Liquid timeline (without laying it on a 29.97 timeline). That is the only flaw, 24p DVD. Everything else works.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 01:13 PM   #12
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As stated above, ProHD is the name JVC gives its range of products that use the HDV1 format. HDV1 (720p) is officially supported by Avid Liquid at 25 and 30fps. Official support is noted as the format itself - 'HDV1' or 'HDV 720p', not 'ProHD', which refers to a family of hardware products which use 'HDV1' or 'HDV 720p'. Furthermore, there are HDV1 presets in Liquid.

http://www.avid.co.uk/products/liquidpro/specs.asp
"Avid Liquid - HDV Editing (720p)"

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/getResource2..._2.pdf?id=6650

FYI, Edius was bundled with the HD100 in the UK, at least, in the early part of this year. Later there was a promotion with Liquid. Do we think Avid would provide software to be bundled with a format that it doesn't officially support?
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Old December 12th, 2006, 02:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Antony Michael Wilson
FYI, Edius was bundled with the HD100 in the UK, at least, in the early part of this year. Later there was a promotion with Liquid. Do we think Avid would provide software to be bundled with a format that it doesn't officially support?
Very good about Edius. Didn't know this.

Regarding: "Do we think Avid would provide software to be bundled with a format that it doesn't officially support?"

Yes! I do and it does. I hope we understand we are talking about 24p.

And if I'm wrong, show me a link to the webpage or literature -- officially from Avid -- that shows I am wrong.

I provided a link to a statement from the Liquid Product Manager that shows I am right. Show I am wrong with facts, not wishful thinking.

As I said before, Anthony M, at DV Expo, showed confusion and no knowledge about Liquid support for JVC ProHD 24 support? He is the number one demonstrator for Liquid, working, I think 8 years with the product (not sure on the number of years) and coming to Avid from Pinnacle. If he didn't know... or even if he was pretending not to know for official reasons and a directive from Avid superiors... the fact remains, the support within Liquid for JVC ProHD 24p is not official.

Third parties have privately suggested reasons for this... but the very fact that people will go out of their way to give reasons for the lack of official support certainly points out that the official support is not there.

On other matters it has been suggested by others that pressure on Avid might be the only way to get them to react. This has been shown to be true in the past and I believe the culture within the company remains the same that it may work in the future. One thing is certain is that without pressure, there will be no result.

The more people try to cover for Avid and Avid remains silent (oh, and there policy of no advance info on the future is used only as it serves the moment) it is appropriate to point out the facts.
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Old December 12th, 2006, 03:49 PM   #14
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You're absolutely right that there is no official support for 24 fps in Liquid. That's why I said 25fps and 30fps in my first post on this thread. The claim I was challenging was that there is no official support for 'ProHD' in Liquid:

"And I have been told the rationale for Avid not officially supporting ProHD with Liquid, but I think that it is relevant that Avid currently does not officially support ProHD with Liquid."

This sort of thing is misleading to other forum users who are looking for solutions for cutting material shot on the HD100 series.

I for one have never tried to apologise or cover for Avid. If you search other posts by me on the subject of lack of support in AXPro/MC/Symph for HDV1 at 25 or 24fps (and for 720p/25, 24 or 50 in general) you'll see that. On the official Avid boards I and several others have been complaining about this continually for over a year now, doing our level best to put on pressure. We have been very vocal on this subject. The fact remains, however, that Liquid is one of the very few good solutions for HDV1 editing. It is also worth pointing out that the only reason Avid can offer any support for HDV1 at all is because they inherited Liquid when they purchased Pinnacle, so it's worth cutting Liquid and Liquid users some slack.

Believe me when I say that I understand your frustrations with Avid more than most. However, I think it is unfair and misleading to vent on Liquid!

I think we've cleared this one up, so I won't be diverting this thread any further!
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Old December 13th, 2006, 02:03 AM   #15
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I feel so stupid when asking this but what do you mean with uncompressed sequence? Straight out of component or just pure data from tape/firewire?
Sorry I got a bit confused here.

T
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