DV editing workstation

Ozzie Alfonso · January 19th, 2002, 11:12 PM

You're right, it's all a matter of marketing, or the lack of. Bad marketing has far reaching effects. Where can I find a good Canopus editor? All the editors I know are in schock because they are losing work due to lack of experience with FCP. I'm not about to ask them if they know Canopus. They'll either laugh at me or have a panic attack

It's different when one has his own system. Years ago I actually had an editing suite I put together myself. It was a linear system based on Umatic VTRs and a Convergence contrller. I mixed all kinds of hardware and it worked. The clients I had at the time didn't care what I edited with as long as I got it done on time, on budget, and well. But it was my system in my house. Things are different now that we have a company with a conference room, three editing suites and award winning editors as part of our regular stable. I need to keep them and us employed.

Fast breaking news that's still on topic - the "client" this week didn't like the idea of me being the Director AND camera operator. It was a rough week. If my partner hadn't intervened I would have lost my patience.I can't stand being told how to do my job.

So now I'm faced with the task of finding a "cheap" but excellent camera operator who is as familiar with the XL-1s as I am or better. As with editors, I'm used to hiring the usual DPs who bring their BetaSPs or DigiBetas. There have been many times when I've asked them to shoot with the Canon. I'm usually met with a smirk and a some beffudlement. But now I'm not offering a choice - it's the XL-1 or no work. Times have changed, the MiniDV format has gained popularity and the XL-1s is as good as the BetaSPs we've been using. It's just a matter of learning a new piece of hardware. I only hope I can find the good ones.

Ozzie Alfonso · January 20th, 2002, 01:09 AM

By the way Chris what exactly am I looking for in the Canopus site? I've surfed through it and can't hone in on anything that says - this is the non-linear editing system you're looking for. I get a lot of DVD stuff and endorsements for products that are not clearly identified. Poor marketing is an understatement. I'm sure there's a pearl in this oyster but I can't find it.

Drewid20 · January 20th, 2002, 02:48 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ozzie Alfonso : <<<-- Originally posted by Drewid20 : <<<-- Originally posted by In the end it comes down to 3 things. (1) What your client wants. (2) How comfortable and efficent you are @ either platform. (3) How much money you have. -->>>

I think you answered my question as to the cost of the Xpress DV. If you bought a computer, monitors AND the Xpress, I'm guessing the Xpress DV software is under $1000? Is Avid still selling the software bundled with the hardware? If so, are trhey more open to alterations, additions, etc. to the system?

Replying to your three points:

1. The client will either not care or insist on a particular system. It used to be that if you didn't have Avid you were not a "true pro." Now money is a little tighter and if they can be sold the post for a little less and we can still make a profit, FCP3 is just fine.

2. With us it's a matter of how many good editors have become proficient with FCP. It took a long time for editors to master Avid (some never have). It's going to take as long for them to master FCP. We've found there are three kinds of Avid editors - true editors that come from film and have never quite mastered Avid; techies who are masters of everything Avid makes but who are mediocre editors, if at all; and really good editos who have mastered Avid's Media Composer - I know only 2 out of more than 20 editors I'm familiar with.

3. Money? -->>>

I built the computer for 1700 bucks and the Xpress DV was 1500.

I like the fact that if you were a good editor on the AVID Media Composer it will transfer right over to the Xpress DV. I am at the stage in my learning the Media Composer were I know all the functions and can do quite a bit but my speed and quality need some work. I've been using it for close to 2 years now but I need more time on it. I'm not on it everyday so I forget some shortcuts easily. The way I look at the AVID is just because you know what all the buttons are doesnt mean your a good editor on it. :)

Ozzie Alfonso · January 20th, 2002, 07:42 AM

Mastering ANY editing system does not a master editor make.

Bob Zimmerman · January 20th, 2002, 09:21 AM

Ok I have a xl1s and a Dell laptop. After buying these two what is a good program for a editting station. I would like top of the like but I can't afford it now. So what is something good and easy to learn the basics id editting.

Vic Owen · January 20th, 2002, 11:50 AM

Well, Chris, you did it to me. Just when I thought I had it figured out, you've (and others here) have sent me back to square one!

Having used a MAC G3 for editing with EditDV for a few years, I was all primed for a new G4/G5 and FCP. I, too, have gotten bit by the Apple marketing and 2-pop enthusiasm for FCP 3.0.

Now, you have gotten me thinking about something like DV Storm. Looks like, by the time I got something similar to a Dell 340 workstation and the Storm SE bundle, cost would be similar, so that is not a real factor. Switching from to EDV/Cinestream to Premier might be. Either way, I have to upgrade both the work station and my software.

As Ozzie mentioned earlier, the diversity and variety of opinions found here make this community a valuable resource.

I'm going to re-read this string, and ponder this and other info for awhile before I make the leap. Or maybe, I'll just go watch the play-offs for awhile to clear my head!

Vic

Mike Butler · January 21st, 2002, 12:01 PM

Good post....just when we thought we had it figured out...kinda like trying to deal with women...HAHAHAHA (no offense to our female members here).

Many times I thought I had it figured out...like with the AG456 and tape-to-tape S-VHS editing!!! :-)

Zim, what's a good editing system? Well, you may have been following the posts about going with something that has a good following, both so you can find people that know how to use it and also being able to market your skills readily. That might be Premiere. It is priced well below Avid Express DV (which is about $1500-1700 where Premiere is about $500...or free if you buy certain cards) and there are still lots of people using it. This could spark an all-day debate about the relative performance of the different products, but we have already talked about business realities.

Ozzie, I understand your frustration totally about your sunk costs on the higher-end systems while having an end-run pulled on you by low-end stuff. Folks I know in this town are fortunate in that their Avids are either rented out long-term or working regularly. These guys with the Beta SP's are no doubt similarly irritated at the massive influx of XL1 cams. You are smart to stick to your guns with your "XL1 or no work" policy.

BTW, internationally, Diageo (parent company of UDV and Guinness-Bass) is the largest...brands like Smirnoff, Cuervo, Malibu, Baileys...

Allied Domecq is number two (Beefeater, Canadian Club, Courvoisier, Kahlua, Maker's Mark, Sauza, Stoli...)

John Locke · January 21st, 2002, 12:41 PM

Glad to hear the kudos about FCP 3.0.

Just ordered the upgrade version and am impatiently waiting for it to make its way all the way over here to Korea (but not looking forward to the Customs pirates who tag a 30% tax based on the price on the invoice PLUS the shipping costs!).

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user and have the Cinema display along with the G4 with super drive. The cinema display allows plenty of room for controls and the canvas and output. But I do need an NTSC monitor. I plan to grab one of those soon.

Also considering one other addition...CineLook. But I hear FCP 3.0 has a filter that achieves pretty much the same effect. Has anyone compared them yet?

Bob Zimmerman · January 22nd, 2002, 03:45 AM

I just wasted a bunch of time on a Dell. It's going back on thursday. It can't do what they said it could. Great computer, but it won't work. Looking now at a Mac powerbook. Maybe just the imac, but I like the laptop better.

John Locke · January 22nd, 2002, 04:20 AM

If you're going with a laptop instead of a desktop, I recommend the Titanium model rather than just the iBook. Lots more wallop.

Mike Butler · January 22nd, 2002, 10:14 AM

That Titanium is widely regarded as a killa machine, and equal to the task of DV editing, according to some post-production users over on 2-pop. It'll run FCP3. I would have gone for it, but I really needed a desktop machine to repplace the old klunker, and that's where the money went. But we'll see how rich I feel later this year.

Bob Zimmerman · January 22nd, 2002, 12:17 PM

that Mac Powerbook looks really good. Has anyone used or know if Final Cut Pro is any good?

Ken Tanaka · January 22nd, 2002, 12:30 PM

Final Cut Pro 3 is a -very- good NLE (in my book) and will run well on a Mac Powerbook G4, particularly one with 512Mb of RAM. The 16:9 aspect ratio of the screen makes it especially well-suited to accommodating the various windows (browser, canvas, timeline, et.al.) involved in editing.

If you're interested in Final Cut Pro you should visit the Apple site and 2-pop.com. The latter is a 3rd-party site predominantly devoted to FCP.

You might also take a look at DVCreators.net. They feature a nationwide program of classes on DV techniques which usually use FCP as the NLE.

Mike Butler · January 22nd, 2002, 12:40 PM

I use FCP exclusively, and am very impressed. This is on a G4 desktop, with 768MB of RAM. It feels more "Avid-like" than Adobe Premiere.

BTW, if any of you out there are schoolteachers, I wonder if you know...you can get FCP (now version 3) for $300!!! That's SOOO cheap!!! Not a demo copy or crippleware, the real dinkum, as the Aussies would say.

Vic Owen · January 22nd, 2002, 12:51 PM

Thanks to zimvg304 for the feedback on the Dell.

After pondering all this stuff while watching the NFL playoffs (and taking much delight in the Raider's whining), I'm still leaning toward a new G4/G5. Been a MAC guy too long to switch, I guess.

We also have 2 Wintel machines in the house, and I still can't get used to the crashes & conflicts.

FCP DOES get a lot of hype, but many here seem happy with it. EditDV/Cinestream has been pretty good for me, but the support is pretty shaky now after the sale to Discreet, and FCP has caught-up with its titler module. FCP will also do several things EDV won't.

Decisions, decisions....

Vic

January 19th, 2002, 11:12 PM	#31
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	You're right, it's all a matter of marketing, or the lack of. Bad marketing has far reaching effects. Where can I find a good Canopus editor? All the editors I know are in schock because they are losing work due to lack of experience with FCP. I'm not about to ask them if they know Canopus. They'll either laugh at me or have a panic attack It's different when one has his own system. Years ago I actually had an editing suite I put together myself. It was a linear system based on Umatic VTRs and a Convergence contrller. I mixed all kinds of hardware and it worked. The clients I had at the time didn't care what I edited with as long as I got it done on time, on budget, and well. But it was my system in my house. Things are different now that we have a company with a conference room, three editing suites and award winning editors as part of our regular stable. I need to keep them and us employed. Fast breaking news that's still on topic - the "client" this week didn't like the idea of me being the Director AND camera operator. It was a rough week. If my partner hadn't intervened I would have lost my patience.I can't stand being told how to do my job. So now I'm faced with the task of finding a "cheap" but excellent camera operator who is as familiar with the XL-1s as I am or better. As with editors, I'm used to hiring the usual DPs who bring their BetaSPs or DigiBetas. There have been many times when I've asked them to shoot with the Canon. I'm usually met with a smirk and a some beffudlement. But now I'm not offering a choice - it's the XL-1 or no work. Times have changed, the MiniDV format has gained popularity and the XL-1s is as good as the BetaSPs we've been using. It's just a matter of learning a new piece of hardware. I only hope I can find the good ones. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 20th, 2002, 01:09 AM	#32
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	By the way Chris what exactly am I looking for in the Canopus site? I've surfed through it and can't hone in on anything that says - this is the non-linear editing system you're looking for. I get a lot of DVD stuff and endorsements for products that are not clearly identified. Poor marketing is an understatement. I'm sure there's a pearl in this oyster but I can't find it. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 20th, 2002, 07:42 AM	#34
Ozzie Alfonso Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: New York, NY Posts: 355	Mastering ANY editing system does not a master editor make. __________________ *Ozzie Alfonso* www.ozziealfonso.com

January 21st, 2002, 12:01 PM	#37
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Good post....just when we thought we had it figured out...kinda like trying to deal with women...HAHAHAHA (no offense to our female members here). Many times I thought I had it figured out...like with the AG456 and tape-to-tape S-VHS editing!!! :-) Zim, what's a good editing system? Well, you may have been following the posts about going with something that has a good following, both so you can find people that know how to use it and also being able to market your skills readily. That might be Premiere. It is priced well below Avid Express DV (which is about $1500-1700 where Premiere is about $500...or free if you buy certain cards) and there are still lots of people using it. This could spark an all-day debate about the relative performance of the different products, but we have already talked about business realities. Ozzie, I understand your frustration totally about your sunk costs on the higher-end systems while having an end-run pulled on you by low-end stuff. Folks I know in this town are fortunate in that their Avids are either rented out long-term or working regularly. These guys with the Beta SP's are no doubt similarly irritated at the massive influx of XL1 cams. You are smart to stick to your guns with your "XL1 or no work" policy. BTW, internationally, Diageo (parent company of UDV and Guinness-Bass) is the largest...brands like Smirnoff, Cuervo, Malibu, Baileys... Allied Domecq is number two (Beefeater, Canadian Club, Courvoisier, Kahlua, Maker's Mark, Sauza, Stoli...) __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

January 21st, 2002, 12:41 PM	#38
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	Glad to hear the kudos about FCP 3.0. Just ordered the upgrade version and am impatiently waiting for it to make its way all the way over here to Korea (but not looking forward to the Customs pirates who tag a 30% tax based on the price on the invoice PLUS the shipping costs!). I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user and have the Cinema display along with the G4 with super drive. The cinema display allows plenty of room for controls and the canvas and output. But I do need an NTSC monitor. I plan to grab one of those soon. Also considering one other addition...CineLook. But I hear FCP 3.0 has a filter that achieves pretty much the same effect. Has anyone compared them yet? __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

January 20th, 2002, 02:48 AM	#33
Drewid20 New Boot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 16	<<<-- Originally posted by Ozzie Alfonso : <<<-- Originally posted by Drewid20 : <<<-- Originally posted by In the end it comes down to 3 things. (1) What your client wants. (2) How comfortable and efficent you are @ either platform. (3) How much money you have. -->>> I think you answered my question as to the cost of the Xpress DV. If you bought a computer, monitors AND the Xpress, I'm guessing the Xpress DV software is under $1000? Is Avid still selling the software bundled with the hardware? If so, are trhey more open to alterations, additions, etc. to the system? Replying to your three points: 1. The client will either not care or insist on a particular system. It used to be that if you didn't have Avid you were not a "true pro." Now money is a little tighter and if they can be sold the post for a little less and we can still make a profit, FCP3 is just fine. 2. With us it's a matter of how many good editors have become proficient with FCP. It took a long time for editors to master Avid (some never have). It's going to take as long for them to master FCP. We've found there are three kinds of Avid editors - true editors that come from film and have never quite mastered Avid; techies who are masters of everything Avid makes but who are mediocre editors, if at all; and really good editos who have mastered Avid's Media Composer - I know only 2 out of more than 20 editors I'm familiar with. 3. Money? -->>> I built the computer for 1700 bucks and the Xpress DV was 1500. I like the fact that if you were a good editor on the AVID Media Composer it will transfer right over to the Xpress DV. I am at the stage in my learning the Media Composer were I know all the functions and can do quite a bit but my speed and quality need some work. I've been using it for close to 2 years now but I need more time on it. I'm not on it everyday so I forget some shortcuts easily. The way I look at the AVID is just because you know what all the buttons are doesnt mean your a good editor on it. :)

January 20th, 2002, 09:21 AM	#35
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	Ok I have a xl1s and a Dell laptop. After buying these two what is a good program for a editting station. I would like top of the like but I can't afford it now. So what is something good and easy to learn the basics id editting.

January 20th, 2002, 11:50 AM	#36
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	Well, Chris, you did it to me. Just when I thought I had it figured out, you've (and others here) have sent me back to square one! Having used a MAC G3 for editing with EditDV for a few years, I was all primed for a new G4/G5 and FCP. I, too, have gotten bit by the Apple marketing and 2-pop enthusiasm for FCP 3.0. Now, you have gotten me thinking about something like DV Storm. Looks like, by the time I got something similar to a Dell 340 workstation and the Storm SE bundle, cost would be similar, so that is not a real factor. Switching from to EDV/Cinestream to Premier might be. Either way, I have to upgrade both the work station and my software. As Ozzie mentioned earlier, the diversity and variety of opinions found here make this community a valuable resource. I'm going to re-read this string, and ponder this and other info for awhile before I make the leap. Or maybe, I'll just go watch the play-offs for awhile to clear my head! Vic

January 22nd, 2002, 03:45 AM	#39
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	I just wasted a bunch of time on a Dell. It's going back on thursday. It can't do what they said it could. Great computer, but it won't work. Looking now at a Mac powerbook. Maybe just the imac, but I like the laptop better.

January 22nd, 2002, 04:20 AM	#40
John Locke Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Austin, TX USA Posts: 2,882	If you're going with a laptop instead of a desktop, I recommend the Titanium model rather than just the iBook. Lots more wallop. __________________ John Locke SursumFilms.com

January 22nd, 2002, 10:14 AM	#41
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	That Titanium is widely regarded as a killa machine, and equal to the task of DV editing, according to some post-production users over on 2-pop. It'll run FCP3. I would have gone for it, but I really needed a desktop machine to repplace the old klunker, and that's where the money went. But we'll see how rich I feel later this year. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

January 22nd, 2002, 12:17 PM	#42
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	that Mac Powerbook looks really good. Has anyone used or know if Final Cut Pro is any good?

January 22nd, 2002, 12:30 PM	#43
Ken Tanaka Retired DV Info Net Almunus Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,943	Final Cut Pro 3 is a -very- good NLE (in my book) and will run well on a Mac Powerbook G4, particularly one with 512Mb of RAM. The 16:9 aspect ratio of the screen makes it especially well-suited to accommodating the various windows (browser, canvas, timeline, et.al.) involved in editing. If you're interested in Final Cut Pro you should visit the Apple site and 2-pop.com. The latter is a 3rd-party site predominantly devoted to FCP. You might also take a look at DVCreators.net. They feature a nationwide program of classes on DV techniques which usually use FCP as the NLE. __________________ Lady X Films: A lady with a boring wardrobe...and a global mission. Hey, you don't have enough stuff! Buy with confidence from our sponsors. Hand-picked as the best in the business...Really! See some of my work one frame at a time: www.KenTanaka.com

January 22nd, 2002, 12:40 PM	#44
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	I use FCP exclusively, and am very impressed. This is on a G4 desktop, with 768MB of RAM. It feels more "Avid-like" than Adobe Premiere. BTW, if any of you out there are schoolteachers, I wonder if you know...you can get FCP (now version 3) for $300!!! That's SOOO cheap!!! Not a demo copy or crippleware, the real dinkum, as the Aussies would say. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

January 22nd, 2002, 12:51 PM	#45
Vic Owen Major Player Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 540	Thanks to zimvg304 for the feedback on the Dell. After pondering all this stuff while watching the NFL playoffs (and taking much delight in the Raider's whining), I'm still leaning toward a new G4/G5. Been a MAC guy too long to switch, I guess. We also have 2 Wintel machines in the house, and I still can't get used to the crashes & conflicts. FCP DOES get a lot of hype, but many here seem happy with it. EditDV/Cinestream has been pretty good for me, but the support is pretty shaky now after the sale to Discreet, and FCP has caught-up with its titler module. FCP will also do several things EDV won't. Decisions, decisions.... Vic