AG-DVC30 vs. DVX100 vs. DVC60

[Peter Jefferson]

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

FWIW, the Z1 can give you 480/30p and 576/25p via its component video output but not through firewire. Look at the options in the Component Downconvert menu when you are set to record in HDV mode. You could use a relatively inexpensive component > firewire capture box to get it into the computer.

Hey Boyd, I was using a Decklink with this to run some tests on downconversions for a training course i was writing up.. i wasnt impressed.. it may just be me?? I also tried it using Pinnacle LE6 BoB that looked a little better... but thats LE6.. cough gag... lol
Actually lookin at the footage on a HD plasma, i found it was strikingly sharper with the screen set to 720p but the cam set to 1080i using component

Dont get me wrong, the z1 is a brilliant camera, but the "feel" of the image just misses the mark for some reason (this is me though.. ) I only use them predominately for DigiBeta/DVCPro50 delivery, simply for the fact that their 4.2.2 makes a difference with colour grading and effects work for broadcast, and theyre relatively cheap units which offer that colour compression format.

[Barry Green]

Regarding DVC30 vs. DVX100 -- note that Jan has just announced that the rebate program has been further enhanced -- there is now a $500 rebate on the DVX100. I don't know what your budget is specifically, but that may close the price gap enough for you to justify getting the DVX...

[Stephen Finton]

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

I haven't used the DVC30, but last year Adam Wilt gave it an excellent review. One of the only things he criticized was the frame mode, which he said was accomplished using field doubling and not real progressive scan. He pointed out that this reduces your vertical resolution by 50%.

Boyd? Why would they attempt field doubling, if the resulting resolution was going to be half? That doesn't make any sense.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Here's the exact quote from Adam Wilt in the review

Frame mode is not true progressive. It uses field doubling to give a film-like 30 fps look, but at the expense of half of the vertical resolution.

The review is available on the dv.com website if you're registered there.

Pros:
Great pictures. Flexible and customizable user interface. Huge LCD. EVF DTL. Very smooth power zoom.

Cons:
Awkward audio level controls. Frame mode uses field doubling.

Bottom Line:
The Panasonic DVC30 packs a lot of quality, flexibility, and customizability into a reasonably small, light, and affordable package.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Peter: I tried hooking my Z1 up to a 1280x768 Sony widescreen LCD and in 480p downconvert component mode I could hardly tell the difference from 1080i. It was very noticeably sharper than 480i DV mode. I also tried 480p with my 37" Panasonic plasma EDTV (854x480) and again it was a very noticeable improvement in sharpness when compared the regular DV mode.

Not sure how this compares to the DVX-100 since I haven't used one. ADS now makes the Pyro AV box which can convert component to DV25 and output either 480p or 576p via firewire. Cost is under $200 so I'm thinking about picking one up just to see how much of an improvement shows in the captured footage.

[Peter Jefferson]

no doubt the Z1 has superior optics than the DVX.. i dont doubt that for one second and when downconverting to dvd, i find its actually quite stunning. For interlaced work, i cannot fault the camera at all.
The workflow however doesnt justify me using the m2t format for weddings though.. for corpoate, theyre paying big bux, so im more than happy to work in using cineform wavelets. They pay more money, they deserve a "better" looking product. ALot of my corporate work requires playback on PC monitors and projectors at seminars and conventions, so output to progressive scan is important. I ffind that editing as interlaced HDV then downconverting and changing to progressive mpg2 works well, but obviously it wont look the same.
even downsampling as a realtime dv capture, i still feel teh dvx is far more flexible tweak wise than any of the cameras on the market today.
I had a pre prod version of an xl2 for review for the shop, and its menu system was a lil convoluted, whereas in a Pana cam, i can literally take 30seconds to rewrite a scene file and claibrate its brother camera.

finally, I feel that its not the sharpness of the image, however moreso the colour sampling which brings out the images of the z1, compared to the DVX. i also prefer progressive scan so im very biased towards the feel of the motion. I honestly prefer full frame progressive scan at full res vs a progressive render of an interlaced source.. everyone has different likes but ive tried a combo of methods as its something i need to do...
(being a supplier here, i need to be able to offer solutions to clients)
Im just waiting on a PreProd of the HD101e before i can start pushing it... but it seems everyone is waiting for the HVX200 simply for the formats it avails compared to HDV.. afew people are very unhappy with hdv for numerous reasons, but time will tell what will work out and what wont.

as for the dvc30, i loved it.. its form factor alone was great to use as a consumer cam, as well as a pro cam, i only found afew things being problematic (for my usage) which has already been mentioned.

[Stefano Costantini]

Peter,

I am getting my feet wet with the DVC30 and I would love to get a jump start from your knowledge and experience.

My is purely from a hobbyist perspective (family events and sports). I would like to make the best use of the 16:9 digital squeeze mode. These are my questions relating shooting sports in 16:9 for delivery by DVD:

1. Progressive or interlaced if I need to apply slow motion in my NLE?

2. I use Liquid Edition 6.1. Should I set up my time line to match the shooting mode (again interlaced or progressive) or does it not make a difference.

Any tips and things to look out for?

Thank you for your help.

[Richie Ellison]

Thanks for all the great responses, you guys rock! Seems like I just can't go wrong with either of these cameras... Can't wait to make the purchase! Thanks again for all the insider info!

Richie

[Peter Jefferson]

1. Progressive or interlaced if I need to apply slow motion in my NLE?

((For slow mo work, interlaced recording is probably best,explained below> , also as it is fast sports, a faster shutter (about 120 up to 250 depending on lighting) would get you a good detail level. Also the DVC30s zoom lens will come in VERY handy for sports..
Then when doing slow motion in post, make sure processing is set to interpolate.
Check out page 2 of this thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ight=reference
Its using Vegas as a reference, but you can do this with LE6 or any NLE

2. I use Liquid Edition 6.1. Should I set up my time line to match the shooting mode (again interlaced or progressive) or does it not make a difference.
((Use interlaced until youre ready to delivery to DVD. Then consider whether progressive (virtually an NLE frame mode conversion) will improve the look and feel of your presentation. Do your transcode to mpg (eithe progressive or interlacd) when you feel that the decision will improve the piece as oppsed to asuming that progressive will benefit you.

It certainly wont make it sharper.. it would pretty much look like in cam frame mode, but the fact that your doing sports, and slow motion work, your output would be a little smoother... theoretically not as "strobey"))

Any tips and things to look out for?

((Not really, just go out there and have some fun :) ))

[Max Wilson]

I am trying to convince my boss to get the DVX100B over the DVC 30 for our studio and convention coverage.

So what are the main diferences in the two besides ccd size and audio?

I need to make the DVX sound like its worth the extra $1,300 to him.

[Brendan Bhagan]

Better low light,
24p ( true progressive! )
30P
built in Xlr
more control

Audio is actually the same ( if you add the xlr box and mic to the dvc30 that is )

but did I mention 24P,

[David Jimerson]

The DVC30 is considerably smaller, if that's a factor.

Less detail in shadows, but the colors seem more saturated at identical settings.

[Peter Jefferson]

hmm.. the differences.. well working with the 2 on a few projects in the past made me ditch the 30 in favour of a second 100...

main reasons being -

-colour rendition (nowhere ner as accurate or detailed in gradation as the 100)
-ND FIlters are automatically set on the 30, one thing i do not like, as i prefer ful manual control
- Low light performance really couldnt be compared as the DVX is 1/3 CCD and the 30 is 1/4, BUT its not to say its crap.. its not..
- True Porgreessive scan.. makes a huge difference
- Zero mechanical noice from the internal mic of the DVX, whereas teh internal mic on teh 30 is ON the body, so mechanical noise is noticed and recorded
- the 30 has a longer zoom.. just wish the DVX had a lens which reached this far..
- the 30 has some pissy buttons (my iris button was like a loose tooth after 3 jobs...
- Setup on both cameras is identical apart from CineGamma settings, BUT as mentioned, even with IDENTICAL settings, image quality was VERY different..
(i shot a wedding and the BMaids dresses were hot pink, the 30 rendered them as a strange red, while the DVX kept them an accurate pink
- I prefer the form factor of the DVX, as its heavier, its stability is naturally better simply due to weight
- Night vision IR on the 30 is more of a gimmick and only useful if you intend on doing surveilance or nightlife work (did a club shoot once, but results were less than satisfactory, so we jsut threw on a 35w light and had at it..
- i like the memory function of teh 30. U can set up a shot and then press the button to reset the cameras settings to a DIFFERENT shot.. much like Sonys Scene transition for their HDV cameras. Basically setup a rack focus at the touch of a button or if doing stage shows, you can have a focussed wide shot preset to the button so if your up close and the scene goes wide, press teh button, voila...
- Audio is identical to the DVX if your using the Balun
- Battery life on teh 30 is noticably better than the 100, then again, if u run both with LCD open and auto everything, then battery life wont last...
- Both cameras have incredible lenses, but ther is less barrel distortion on the DVX. Also the DVX doesnt have the kind of lense abheratoins the 30 has.. beng that when shooting into direct light the DVX can cope quite well (i usually shoot dancing sillouettes with disco light BEHIND the subject and teh flares i get on teh DVX actualy look good with some nice "star" filter like flares, the 30 however gives me vertical smearing. THis is most likely due to the CCD size



- i guess at the end of the day it all depends on what u want to use the cmer for. For teh price, the 30 is a great camera. It really cannot be compared to the DVX though... theyre different beasts fo different purposes..

[Dan Burnap]

Does anyone know if a '30 and '60 will match well in post?

Thanks

[Mark Williams]

Yes, it is basically is the same camera, with the same CCD sensors, but with different exterior, viewfinder arrangement and a few other different controls. The DVC60 is designed to be a shoulder mount cam and the DVC30 is not.

Regards,