Interesting thing about the DVX100A at DVinfo.net

Heath McKnight · February 11th, 2005, 10:49 AM

My students are starting to realize something with the DVX100A, which I of course learned when I was a student using Hi-8 and BetaCam (hey, the VX1000 had JUST come out): flat lighting can really take away the colors from a shot.

But one thing I notice with the DVX100A, more than any other DV/HDV cameras I've used (incl. the XL-1, HD10, FX1, etc.) is that the colors get really muted. The DVX100A is very sensitive and powerful when it comes to colors, and if the lighting is flat or just not "right," the resulting images can be bland. Of course, one of my students made a dark short about addiction and used that to her advantage.

What I'm trying to say is, the DVX100A really responds to lighting and its affect on colors than any other camera I've used.

heath

Aaron Shaw · February 11th, 2005, 11:12 AM

Interesting. To a degree, I have noticed this as well. I shot some test footage as soon as I got the camera in a badly lit setup and it was very flat and dull looking. However, this was before I altered any settings.

Are you using cine like gama?

Heath McKnight · February 11th, 2005, 11:29 AM

Yes, we are. We have the cameras set up pretty good.

heath

Aaron Shaw · February 11th, 2005, 12:11 PM

:)

I was just curious because cine like gamma tends to give a pretty flat picture. This may be part of the problem (although I am sure you have already pondered that!).

Heath McKnight · February 11th, 2005, 12:25 PM

We offset that with the other settings, which, when lit properly, makes it really "pop" and look GREAT!

heath

Peter Jefferson · February 12th, 2005, 07:48 PM

hmm...
interesting post there.. and i agree somewaht that the DVX colours are quiote bland.. however the way i see it is this..

i shoot events.. i specifically chose the DVX100s (first and second release) due to its build, weight and configuration options. Now you mihgt notice that when shooting, your colours may be a lil bland or muted..
I use settings which offer a richer black, with a cooler temperate and dropped phase correction as teh DVX has the tendency to turn orange into pink...
However DV still compresses it to a point where these blacks still look slightly greyish and whites arent as piercing. This isnt a problem as its not noisy, its just.. well.. flat.. to the naked eye its fine, but im just pedantic.

I can easily up the saturations here thru the scene files, however i dont particularly like my footage to look like home video.. with oversaturated colours..

one thing about video.. is that light does play a major factor here obviously.. but like any modern production, colour correction in post is essential to get that finished look and feel. Even with a camera as powerful as this, some things still need that final gloss.
Personally, i run everythign through various colouring stages.

For some reason doing when i first got the camera didnt bother me and the extra work has actually taught me what the camera can and cannot do. Now i know exactly what settings to use based on the type of shoot i have and i will know before hand what will need to be corrected and what wont.

The camera is liek a car.. take it for a run.. youll know how it handles around bends, up and down hills, its manouvreability, its basic handling... once u know this, you will be prepared to get onto the road on a regualr basis. ie using this as a metaphor, once u know the DVX, you will KNOW exactly what results you will get before u even get them..

Pete Wilie · February 12th, 2005, 08:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : We offset that with the other settings, which, when lit properly, makes it really "pop" and look GREAT!

heath -->>>

Heath,

Would you mind sharing the specific settings you use?
I was thinking about borrowing a friend's camera and would like to try out your settings if possible.

Thanks.
Pete

Peter Jefferson · February 12th, 2005, 08:47 PM

theres also a range of settings to set the camera to match certain film stock, which im staill waiting to recieve.. then theres the settings for the cam to make the best of the filmstock.. ie settigns to use for xfering to film based on stock.....

again im eaiting for this.. i didnt know it existed until afew days ago...

Heath McKnight · February 12th, 2005, 10:45 PM

I'd suggest looking around the web for books, etc. The settings we have on the DVX100A at the school are kinda top secret, and I know our camera instructor, one Jon Fordham, wouldn't want me giving it away. <wink>

heath

David Stone · February 12th, 2005, 11:39 PM

Barry Green covers all this in his book "The DVX Book". It is a must for anyone using the DVX100A. He ships a DVD with it that has tutorials, examples, menu settings and "Magical Projectile Settings" that create film looks.

John Hudson · February 13th, 2005, 02:47 PM

This is interesting. I find excusivley what leads to a 'flat image' or a muted 'color palette' comes down to a few issues:

1. Always doing a proper White Balance

Don't rely exclusively on a PRST. Especially outdoors where the Color Temp can range from 1800K to 25000K; (I'm illustrating the scope of range here obviously! I'm not shooting at 8000FT in the snow :P).

2. Color Temp

Go outisde on an overcast day and the colors are indeed muted, cool and flat. This isn't exactly a unique characteristic of the DVX100 but more so the effect the Tempature has on colors.

3. Giving the CCD's something to work with in the use of light and dark. A flat, cool image (or overly warm for that matter) 'is what it is'. But add some highlights of light and dark and suddenly the canvas comes to life. With Light and Dark, the light is extremely more dramtatic in appearance; the light, the colors, the highlights...

Just my observation and HO.

Heath McKnight · February 13th, 2005, 09:06 PM

John,

I agree with you--layering with light also helps. I think the DVX100A is so sensitive, that it small problems on an XL-1, for example, would be GIGANTIC.

Any tips with white balancing? Things look "pale" sometimes with the white balance.

heath

Pete Wilie · February 14th, 2005, 12:34 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Any tips with white balancing? Things look "pale" sometimes with the white balance.

heath -->>>

Heath,

Do you think it's a bit improper for you to be asking for white balancing tips when you don't want to share your other DVX100A settings?

I thought the whole purpose of these forums was for all of us to help each other by sharing.

Best Regards,
Pete

John Hudson · February 14th, 2005, 01:21 PM

LOL

Wow. I just caught that; Top Secret Settings. (Key Peter Gunn music now). Pete, cruise on over to Dvxuser.com where the wealth is shared by all.

As far as tips for WB? No real tip other than use an actual White (I use a Matte surface; not glossy) card, zoom in all of the way and Press the WB Button. I do it whenever lighting conditions change and sometimes will try a couple different WB's if outdoors and I have Direct Light and Indirect light available.

I use PRST from time to time usally on eyeballing the li9ght conditions; no secret; just what I do!

Imran Zaidi · February 14th, 2005, 02:10 PM

Pete, I think Heath made it clear that he's being considerate towards his organization's camera instructor by not handing that info out.

Heath contributes much more than his share of knowledge around here, but if some information is not his to give out, it's perfectly understandable for him to hold back.

February 11th, 2005, 10:49 AM	#1
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Interesting thing about the DVX100A My students are starting to realize something with the DVX100A, which I of course learned when I was a student using Hi-8 and BetaCam (hey, the VX1000 had JUST come out): flat lighting can really take away the colors from a shot. But one thing I notice with the DVX100A, more than any other DV/HDV cameras I've used (incl. the XL-1, HD10, FX1, etc.) is that the colors get really muted. The DVX100A is very sensitive and powerful when it comes to colors, and if the lighting is flat or just not "right," the resulting images can be bland. Of course, one of my students made a dark short about addiction and used that to her advantage. What I'm trying to say is, the DVX100A really responds to lighting and its affect on colors than any other camera I've used. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 11th, 2005, 11:29 AM	#3
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Yes, we are. We have the cameras set up pretty good. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 11th, 2005, 12:25 PM	#5
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	We offset that with the other settings, which, when lit properly, makes it really "pop" and look GREAT! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 12th, 2005, 10:45 PM	#9
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I'd suggest looking around the web for books, etc. The settings we have on the DVX100A at the school are kinda top secret, and I know our camera instructor, one Jon Fordham, wouldn't want me giving it away. <wink> heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 13th, 2005, 09:06 PM	#12
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	John, I agree with you--layering with light also helps. I think the DVX100A is so sensitive, that it small problems on an XL-1, for example, would be GIGANTIC. Any tips with white balancing? Things look "pale" sometimes with the white balance. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

February 11th, 2005, 11:12 AM	#2
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	Interesting. To a degree, I have noticed this as well. I shot some test footage as soon as I got the camera in a badly lit setup and it was very flat and dull looking. However, this was before I altered any settings. Are you using cine like gama?

February 11th, 2005, 12:11 PM	#4
Aaron Shaw Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 587	:) I was just curious because cine like gamma tends to give a pretty flat picture. This may be part of the problem (although I am sure you have already pondered that!).

February 12th, 2005, 07:48 PM	#6
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	hmm... interesting post there.. and i agree somewaht that the DVX colours are quiote bland.. however the way i see it is this.. i shoot events.. i specifically chose the DVX100s (first and second release) due to its build, weight and configuration options. Now you mihgt notice that when shooting, your colours may be a lil bland or muted.. I use settings which offer a richer black, with a cooler temperate and dropped phase correction as teh DVX has the tendency to turn orange into pink... However DV still compresses it to a point where these blacks still look slightly greyish and whites arent as piercing. This isnt a problem as its not noisy, its just.. well.. flat.. to the naked eye its fine, but im just pedantic. I can easily up the saturations here thru the scene files, however i dont particularly like my footage to look like home video.. with oversaturated colours.. one thing about video.. is that light does play a major factor here obviously.. but like any modern production, colour correction in post is essential to get that finished look and feel. Even with a camera as powerful as this, some things still need that final gloss. Personally, i run everythign through various colouring stages. For some reason doing when i first got the camera didnt bother me and the extra work has actually taught me what the camera can and cannot do. Now i know exactly what settings to use based on the type of shoot i have and i will know before hand what will need to be corrected and what wont. The camera is liek a car.. take it for a run.. youll know how it handles around bends, up and down hills, its manouvreability, its basic handling... once u know this, you will be prepared to get onto the road on a regualr basis. ie using this as a metaphor, once u know the DVX, you will KNOW exactly what results you will get before u even get them..

February 12th, 2005, 08:22 PM	#7
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : We offset that with the other settings, which, when lit properly, makes it really "pop" and look GREAT! heath -->>> Heath, Would you mind sharing the specific settings you use? I was thinking about borrowing a friend's camera and would like to try out your settings if possible. Thanks. Pete

February 12th, 2005, 08:47 PM	#8
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	theres also a range of settings to set the camera to match certain film stock, which im staill waiting to recieve.. then theres the settings for the cam to make the best of the filmstock.. ie settigns to use for xfering to film based on stock..... again im eaiting for this.. i didnt know it existed until afew days ago...

February 12th, 2005, 11:39 PM	#10
David Stone Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 40	Barry Green covers all this in his book "The DVX Book". It is a must for anyone using the DVX100A. He ships a DVD with it that has tutorials, examples, menu settings and "Magical Projectile Settings" that create film looks.

February 13th, 2005, 02:47 PM	#11
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	This is interesting. I find excusivley what leads to a 'flat image' or a muted 'color palette' comes down to a few issues: 1. Always doing a proper White Balance Don't rely exclusively on a PRST. Especially outdoors where the Color Temp can range from 1800K to 25000K; (I'm illustrating the scope of range here obviously! I'm not shooting at 8000FT in the snow :P). 2. Color Temp Go outisde on an overcast day and the colors are indeed muted, cool and flat. This isn't exactly a unique characteristic of the DVX100 but more so the effect the Tempature has on colors. 3. Giving the CCD's something to work with in the use of light and dark. A flat, cool image (or overly warm for that matter) 'is what it is'. But add some highlights of light and dark and suddenly the canvas comes to life. With Light and Dark, the light is extremely more dramtatic in appearance; the light, the colors, the highlights... Just my observation and HO.

February 14th, 2005, 12:34 PM	#13
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Any tips with white balancing? Things look "pale" sometimes with the white balance. heath -->>> Heath, Do you think it's a bit improper for you to be asking for white balancing tips when you don't want to share your other DVX100A settings? I thought the whole purpose of these forums was for all of us to help each other by sharing. Best Regards, Pete

February 14th, 2005, 01:21 PM	#14
John Hudson Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: 32° 44' N 117° 10' W Posts: 820	LOL Wow. I just caught that; Top Secret Settings. (Key Peter Gunn music now). Pete, cruise on over to Dvxuser.com where the wealth is shared by all. As far as tips for WB? No real tip other than use an actual White (I use a Matte surface; not glossy) card, zoom in all of the way and Press the WB Button. I do it whenever lighting conditions change and sometimes will try a couple different WB's if outdoors and I have Direct Light and Indirect light available. I use PRST from time to time usally on eyeballing the li9ght conditions; no secret; just what I do!

February 14th, 2005, 02:10 PM	#15
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	Pete, I think Heath made it clear that he's being considerate towards his organization's camera instructor by not handing that info out. Heath contributes much more than his share of knowledge around here, but if some information is not his to give out, it's perfectly understandable for him to hold back.