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Pro and consumer versions including PXW-Z150, PXW-Z100, PXW-X70 / FDR-AX100


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Old March 8th, 2014, 07:38 AM   #436
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

For me, the AX100 not having 60p is a non-issue.

I shoot 29.97p on both my EX1r and FS100. When rendering out to 60i for Blu ray, 29.97p gives a nice PSF look in 60i. And 29.97p over the web is about the best you will stream anyway.

Does YouTube and Vimeo even offer 60p? We know Blu ray wont do it.

Anybody have an HDMI 2.0 video card? Im guessing almost all of us will answer "no". Without HDMI 2.0, all we get is 30p anyway.

Hell, Im going to get one of those cheap Sieki 39 4K monitors for 500 bucks. Yep...30p only. HDMI 1.4

60p is nice fir some shooting. But for me, ehhh...its no big deal.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 08:26 AM   #437
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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It'll come, soon enough, but we're all impatient, can't even wait a few more days for this horribly flawed, "crippled" camera to be available! Silly us <wink>.
Now c'mon Dave, stop sugar-coating this, what you really mean is 'stupid us' ;)
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Old March 8th, 2014, 08:33 AM   #438
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Cliff, I'd still prefer 4K @60p for smooth motion while watching down-rez'd 4K>2K footage. I can largely achieve 60p's smooth motion by using the frame doubler in my displays, but if push came to shove, I'd rather not use it and start with native 60p.

Of course I have that option if I choose to shoot in 1920X1080, but I'm definitely going to begin archiving all my footage in 4K to future-proof that footage. The additional benefit is that the down-sampled 4K footage just looks better than native 2K.

As for native 4K, you're right, not too many of us have 4K displays, especially with HDMI 2.0...yet. :)
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Old March 8th, 2014, 09:07 AM   #439
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I suspect that this 1 inch sensor and Bionz X sensor can do 60p 4k without the AX1 style cooling fan.

With my RX10 shooting 60p (and supposedly reading 100% of the pixels on 16x9 crop) I'm able to record 6 back to back 29 minute recordings with no heat problems whatsoever. (Using Sony AC power adapter) In fact, the RX10 doesnt even feel warm at all.

As far a I know, AX1 does not use the new Bionz X processor. This could be a huge difference in its heat performance difference with the AX100.

We "could"..."maybe"..."might" see 60p enabled on the possible pro sister to the AX100 at NAB next month. (Maybe they will add an XQD socket in this pro model?

I strongly suspect the AX100 is locked at 30p for marketing reasons only. There are many more Sony 4k models comming soon.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 09:22 AM   #440
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Cliff, remember the RX10 & AX100 are totally different body styles that may be very different in terms of how effectively they dissipate heat.

I'm also not sure of the number crunching impact on heat generation between 4K @60p vs 4K @30p, but I'm guessing it's considerable.

So with these 2 factors present at the time of the AX100's design, who knows what the actual feasibility of having 60p actually was?

I guess none of us can know for sure. But it's certainly feasible that a new, more efficient chip, could have surfaced 6 months after the design of the AX100 was completed. I guess we'll never know.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 10:08 AM   #441
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

It's my asumption that the AX1 was a bit "rushed" to the market. They wanted to get it out there fast because Sony 4K TV were hitting the streets in stronger numbers too.

I suspect that the Bionz X chip was designed to handle the 2014 wave of new 4K products. Its my guess that the architecture if the chip was designed from the ground up to handle 4K 60p and run cool. Its something Sony intended to use in multiple future products for at least 2 years down the road.

Yes. I suspect the RX10 outfitted with the XAVC codec circuit would be able to record 60p 4k and stay cool.

Its interesting that the RX10 and the new AX100 both have metal bodies. This would be a first in a small handycam. Could this also act as a heat sync? Is the Bionz X chip mounted to metal that runs into the body to disperse heat? Or is the magnesium body there to be fashionably cool? Hmmm..

Lots if questions, philosophy and theorizing! Lol
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Old March 8th, 2014, 10:14 AM   #442
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Encoding 1920x1080 AVCHD 60P at 28Mbps is very different than 3840x2160 XAVC-S 60P at 150Mbps. I do not think the issue is sampling the sensor its encoding to XAVC-S and writing consistently to memory.

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Old March 8th, 2014, 10:51 AM   #443
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

True, that is a solid point.

I dont even really know specifically what functions that Bionz X actually does. Does anybody out there?

Does it handle sensor read out? DeBayer? Level and color balance? Camera operating system. Compression? Data buffering and card writing?

Anybody know? I suppose the last 3 are handled by a different processor? Or multimple others?

I suppose there are only a handfull of Sony engineers that could really answer this.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #444
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
I shoot 29.97p on both my EX1r and FS100. When rendering out to 60i for Blu ray, 29.97p gives a nice PSF look in 60i. And 29.97p over the web is about the best you will stream anyway.

Does YouTube and Vimeo even offer 60p? We know Blu ray wont do it.

Anybody have an HDMI 2.0 video card? Im guessing almost all of us will answer "no". Without HDMI 2.0, all we get is 30p anyway.

Hell, Im going to get one of those cheap Sieki 39 4K monitors for 500 bucks. Yep...30p only. HDMI 1.4

60p is nice fir some shooting. But for me, ehhh...its no big deal.
Well some of us have our own websites and deliver 60p to customers no problem, I've been doing so for many years. Likewise many of our customers are already rocking retina type displays that are already far beyond regular 1080p. So 60p to me and others is very important as we aren't locked to traditional tv's, 99% of my customers are on computer, phone or tablet. So I'm not happy about 30p....but I'm hoping it will just be that way for a year or so and then they will have a new small fanless video camera that will record at 60p. In the meantime I can't wait, while 4k in the tv world is rare in the computer world 1080p is basically old hat and resolutions higher than that are relatively common so I really need to move forward to 4k as soon as I can. I'll just tolerate 30p for now.


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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
I strongly suspect the AX100 is locked at 30p for marketing reasons only. There are many more Sony 4k models comming soon.
I dunno, I remember constantly hearing about overheating issues on some of their small cameras when used for video recording, it was a major issue. Given that the AX100 is also small and fanless I'd imagine overheating with 60p would be a major issue as well. It really needs to work 100% of the time for video, overheating is not an option so I prefer that they err on the side of caution.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 02:51 PM   #445
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
It's my asumption that the AX1 was a bit "rushed" to the market. They wanted to get it out there fast because Sony 4K TV were hitting the streets in stronger numbers too.
The mockup was show almost a year before so was expected before the main push for the 4K TV's. Also the processing chip in the AX1 and Z100 is supposed to be the same as in the F5/55. So I think it is a case of them trying to fit the high end processors into a prosumer body. This form factor is common to a few camcorders so they needed a 1\3" chip that could be made to do 4K. Hence the present products.

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Old March 8th, 2014, 02:53 PM   #446
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Whatever it is, whenever it was conceived, the AX1 is nothing to sneeze at. It produces some remarkable video.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 07:59 PM   #447
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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@ Anthony -

google D300 (oops, you MISTYPED SOMETHING!)
yes, still now I have to pause for a sec to remember where to put the D

Quote:

My understanding is Nikon has relatively recently used sensors from Sony, with features Sony doesn't enable... hmmm... whatever.
Nikon do buy all the sensors from Sony , and it is my understanding that Nikon writes the software (but I don't buy it, Sony writes the software too in my opinion)


Quote:

Look around at the sales #s for cameras, by segment and in general - manufacturers that are struggling to survive in rapidly shrinking markets don't have time to worry too much about playing games - survival will depend on releasing products that SELL, because they offer something that justifies the purchase for enough buyers to pay back the R&D and production costs and a profit! That's increasingly hard to do with cell phones and tablets dominating consumer imaging... there may be at best a limited "enthusiast" niche within 2-3 years, and "prosumer" cameras may well ride into the sunset with the P&S... I'm OK with helping see the market segment survive, as shooting stuff with a cell phone sorta stinks! At least for now...
Much better, bravo . see? I'm getting something out of you now. Well done.
but the analysis is limited and a little childish but you are definitely in the right path.
the "thing" is that video involves "broadcasting" (where the money is). That's why our tools will never be able to produce like the broadcast tools. Still productions are not as important as the big video productions. So still cameras can be all the same , but video cameras? no way!
see now why they can't sleep at night to make sure that the limitations will put enough distance between the prosumer and broadcast segments. After the D90 their little world of "limitations" was seriously in danger, and for the first time they had to explain why they sold such limited camcorders to us when a "cheap" D90 produced "broadcast" quality. like a TV studio productions to be clear.: the technology was there even before the D90, but it was "off limits" to us. See it now? now the funny part : because of the D90 they (all) were forced to use real sensors , but now they work twice as hard to put all the limitations possible to defend the "other" business. let's be clear : what do we need? a real sensor, like the DSLR's , a good zoom (30-600), a good lanc, etc : look at the models (all, sony pana,canon) : there is NO WAY we can have all those things in the same camera, NO WAY.

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Insulting the rest of us who are here to engage in civil discussion is one way to get banned, just FYI.
no no: I am talking to you : can you imagine me trying to involve others to come and help me? no. I do it myself.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 08:39 PM   #448
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
For me, the AX100 not having 60p is a non-issue.

I shoot 29.97p on both my EX1r and FS100. When rendering out to 60i for Blu ray, 29.97p gives a nice PSF look in 60i. And 29.97p over the web is about the best you will stream anyway.

Does YouTube and Vimeo even offer 60p? We know Blu ray wont do it.

Anybody have an HDMI 2.0 video card? Im guessing almost all of us will answer "no". Without HDMI 2.0, all we get is 30p anyway.

Hell, Im going to get one of those cheap Sieki 39 4K monitors for 500 bucks. Yep...30p only. HDMI 1.4

60p is nice fir some shooting. But for me, ehhh...its no big deal.
no, there is a difference : I shoot EX1 too and there is a difference.
few months ago I proposed blu ray to a soccer team and they said "blu what?". that's what they said. do you use vegas? XDcam? there is no 108030p as an option, correct?
4K and 60p are the future , pretty much like HDV used to be.when they limited the camera to 30p they knew exactly what they were doing
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Old March 8th, 2014, 09:18 PM   #449
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

OK, now I'M feeling sick to my stomach. I need some sleep!
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Old March 10th, 2014, 04:01 AM   #450
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

From everything I've been able to glean and surmise, the Bionz X is a "new" processor, very likely designed from scratch, and almost certainly designed to "handle" 4K. I suspect we have yet to see what it can do. It may well be "choked" by other factors (see below).

As far as heat, yes a metal body can help with heat distribution and dissipation, and if Cliff can shoot as described, I don't think heat will be an issue. Having owned a couple Axx series that had the overheat issue, and read extensively on the problem with NEX series, I am pretty sure you'd know it if heat was a problem - the compact bodies DO increase the "potential" issue, and we've not heard of any with the RX's.

Actually, the AX100 should have a much easier time of handling any heat generated, although I expect the 4K and high bitrate 1080p WILL create more heat, all things being equal - just more data being shoveled around inside the thing! It occurs to me that this "could" be the actual reason that the RX's are "limited" to 1080/60p 28Mbps? Oh to be a "fly on the wall" when the engineers are stress testing components!

Of all the factors, I'm betting on it being availability of fast and economical memory that will handle the higher bitrate 4K - the "chain" is only as good as the weakest link - and since Panny was apparently using hand picked and tuned memory to get the GH4 working as expected, that's good enough "evidence" for me!

A "consumer" camera that would cost 50% again as much as the camera itself to buy a decent amount of memory for... would probably not be a wise thing to bring to market!! That doesn't mean that higher speed and capacity memory won't be "cheap enough" in fairly short order if the market demands it. So I guess we keep "squeaking" for more to keep the engineers from slacking off, eh!?


Having had a blast shooting with the RX10 over the weekend just "for fun", I'm just tickled with what IS possible and "relatively" affordable - sure, I'd like it to have had 4K, preferably in 60p "flavor", but "it'll do"! I'm pretty sure the AX100 will "do" as well for a dedicated video camera. I have yet to own a "perfect" camera, but Sony has definitely been hitting the mark lately!
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