Shooting progressive with HC1? - Page 4 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series

Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series
Sony's latest single-CMOS additions to their HDV camcorder line.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 3rd, 2006, 10:14 PM   #46
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McManimie
I really love the footage from the HC1 but it only shoots interlaced footage, plain and simple.
The Cinema Effect mode has progressive frames, plain and simple. While they may or may not have the full resolution (I did not measure nor do I ever measure the resolution of a camera) the frames have no aliasing or pixelated edges due to a deinterlaced frame. When it comes to progressive this is all that matters to me. A clean image.

The 1/30th shutter is also much more then just frame blended. I suggest you try it if you have a HC1. The look isn't for everybody but from what I can tell the images are clean looking progressive images that I can process almost in realtime. In fact I'm sure something like Cineform could be made to capture this format in realtime and pull out the progressive frames so there would be no processing for us to do.
Thomas Smet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3rd, 2006, 10:42 PM   #47
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Stockton, UT
Posts: 5,648
Coupla comments, as this horse is about beaten to death (as in pretty well every other thread on the subject dating back a while);

~Check the resolution, you'll be surprised.
~The CineForm crew are on this forum quite regularly, you might ask them about authoring something specific for processing 1/30 shutter speed. I'd think they'll decline for at least three reasons;
1/30 is barely usable for most shooting.
The HC1 is discontinued and has been for a while. We're also seeing the death of interlace-only camcorders.
Some NLE's can already process this correctly, but few users are interested in the production workflow and the application workflow.

Not that many people are going to film these days, but 30p can't be properly converted to 24p for film out, nor can it be matched to a 24p camcorder very well. With the proliferation of 24p camcorders at all levels, I'd think that forward-thinking folks would want all their media to be compatible with whatever it needs to be. 60i is significantly easier to take to 24p, 25p.

All that said, the camcorders are supposed to be fun to mess with, experiment with, and create media that's not destined for professional output or broadcast use. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I forget that aspect of this community.
__________________
Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot
Author, producer, composer
Certified Sony Vegas Trainer
http://www.vasst.com
Douglas Spotted Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2006, 12:15 AM   #48
New Boot
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16
Wow, I am sorry I started a bit of a heated discussion! I assure you that was not my intention. :)

Thanks to some of you for giving me the correct words. It is true that I didn't mean I expected a truly progressive image, rather I expected both fields of the frame to have been recorded at the same "temporal" point so that, during motion, interlaced lines do not reveal themselves as different even though they are present.

It is very interesting that you were able to get the "bb cc dd" output from avisynth!

I very much appreciate all the effort that was put in to answering my question. Thank you!
Michael Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2006, 11:38 AM   #49
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
I've been using 1/25 on my european hc1 in low-light situations. It really helps.

BTW, had my first problem with the wrong field order in 1/25 material. A slowmotion effect wouldn't render properly (didn't help if set on no fields, upper or lower first) until I manually corrected the fields.

Last edited by Mikko Lopponen; December 5th, 2006 at 01:52 PM.
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2006, 12:38 PM   #50
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Greece-Athens
Posts: 37
the Cinema Effect mode is a bit jerky
how can i double the frames from 25 to 50?

thanks
Yiannis Kall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2006, 03:04 PM   #51
Trustee
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McManimie
Huh? Any movement or slanted lines shown using pairs of identical fields will definitely NOT be the same as progressive.
Sorry but I don't agree with this. At a 1/30th setting, an image is recorded for 1/30 of a second into an electronic buffer. The chip then refreshes and records for another 1/30th of a second. There is simply no temporal "gap" in recording to cause the kinds of problems you are referring to.

The 1/30th exposure is then send to two 1/60th fields ... thus as DSE says, resolution is roughly halved and it has (obviously) a characteristic 1/30th second shutter blur - this will limit the usefulness of the footage for most people.
Graham Hickling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2006, 08:46 PM   #52
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Hickling
Sorry but I don't agree with this. At a 1/30th setting, an image is recorded for 1/30 of a second into an electronic buffer. The chip then refreshes and records for another 1/30th of a second. There is simply no temporal "gap" in recording to cause the kinds of problems you are referring to.

To paraphrase Douglas Spotted Eagle, this horse is dead.

The same data is recorded for each field. The data from field one does not actually belong in field two, so it ends up being spatially incorrect. However, it can be good enough to trick the eyes and blur hides a lot of the stepping of lines (It will be quite unnoticeable if down-converted to SD). But it never will be the same as an image from a progressive camera.

But, it doesn't really matter. If you like the look, use it.
John McManimie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2006, 02:42 PM   #53
Trustee
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,666
But one doesn't render back to fields - the aim is 30P. So the 'single field' image expands to fill the frame, and similarly the 1/30th time interval. Resolution is lost (as everyone agrees) but quite simply there are NO stepping lines.

I apologise for going on about this for so long, but it's frustrating that people keep making this statement.
Graham Hickling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7th, 2006, 08:10 PM   #54
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 314
I own an HC1. I have shot footage at 1/30 and with the cinema effect before. I've even recommended the cinema effect as a creative alternative in posts on this board and I feel that if you like the footage from it or 1/30, then that is great. However, I have seen stepping that kind of shrinks and grows and changes shape on angled lines with movement --- subtle but definitely there. But apparently you have not seen this and feel that the HC1 produces progressive footage with no interlace artifacts. That is excellent. I really have nothing more to add to this topic.

Last edited by John McManimie; December 7th, 2006 at 10:40 PM.
John McManimie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2006, 02:32 AM   #55
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McManimie
However, I have seen stepping that kind of shrinks and grows and changes shape on angled lines with movement --- subtle but definitely there. But apparently you have not seen this and feel that the HC1 produces progressive footage with no interlace artifacts.
Oh dear, did you even read this thread?

The hc1 encodes those fields improperly on the hc1 using a shutter of 1/30, that's why there are lines. There should not be and they are easy to remove with a field swap ending with a progressive frame. If you use an interlaced monitor to watch your material you won't notice the swap, but progressive monitors will show it. Try 1/4th shutter for an example of a properly coded frame.

Here's a clip where I had some problems with those low shutter interlace artifacts, but I managed to remove them. Light was occasionally very low so a 1/25 shutter was necessary. Noise was absolutely overkill in some shots. Encoded with divx.

http://hmcindie.pp.fi/movies/Fantasy%20klub%20divx.avi
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2006, 02:42 AM   #56
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by John McManimie
The data from field one does not actually belong in field two, so it ends up being spatially incorrect.
What's wrong here? We are talking about lower shutter speeds than the standard 1/60 so there won't be any spatial incorrectness.

Graham's explanation is correct.
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2006, 02:46 AM   #57
Major Player
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 393
The same kind of interlace swap can be seen in some movies / tv series that have been transferred from film to video. 25 fps which is correct here in pal, but some scenes can have swapped fields if done improperly. That means when viewing the material on a progressive monitor it will show fields in some scenes, eventhough the material is progressive at 25 fps. Interlaced tv's still show them right (because the fields are still the same).

Is the material interlaced when there are interlace lines eventhough it's in reality 25p?
Mikko Lopponen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2006, 09:20 AM   #58
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 1,719
I really don't even care if the camera has lower resolution when using a 1/30th shutter. To me a clean looking image is what matters and I can tell you that this trick makes some very clean looking images. I have shot dozens of samples and so far none of them show any interlaced or aliased lines at all. Angled edges are clean as they are in progressive images. There is also more going on here then just field blending. With field blending you can since the half and half blended frames during a freeze frame of an object in motion. It will look like ghosting. With the 1/30th shutter the same type of motion with look like real motion blur where the blur has a gradient that blends into the solid part of the object and not just a half transparent object blended on top. It looks exactly how animation looks when rendered in After Effects with a motion blur level of 360 degrees. Yes things are very blurry but it does seem to be a natural blur and the image seems perfectly clean.

I know this isn't the way we are all used to slower shutter speeds but then again this camera is pretty unique all around. Again, I am not going to shoot a resolution chart because I could care less how many lines the camera resolves. All I want is a clean image which so far it seems to do very well.

Would I use the 1/30th shutter? Most likely no. That is because I do not like 30p but prefer 24p or 25p. Now if somebody has a PAL HC1 they may be able to use this trick for some great stuff that could be retimed by 4% to 24p. I retimed some of the 1/30th stuff to 24p and it looks nice. It is a little blurry but it looks nice.

I'm really glad to see this discussion. Some may say this topic has been beaten to death but then there is a reason why it keeps coming up. If you are somebody who doesn't like to use the camera in that way then don't use it that way. Nobody is forcing you to use a shutter of 1/30th. If somebody can find some great use for this trick then I am glad it works for you. The great thing about art is that there isn't supposed to be any rules. Nobody would tell Andy Warhol that he isn't using his paint brush the correct way. There are some that may say video isn't supposed to be artistic and there are set rules but I do not agree with that. There are two schools of thought here. One is the commercial aspect of video where it needs to be done a certain way to make money. The other way is an artistic movement that views video as a artistic medium where rules can change and we are only limited by our imagination. Every now and again somebody will use these new tools to break the rules and create something nobody thought of before. After that everybody tries to copy that new method forgetting what it means to experiment with the camera and come up with their own style and own set of rules. Just watch out. Who knows. Maybe someday somebody will use a PAL HC1 to create a movie for Sundance using a 1/25th shutter and people will love it.
Thomas Smet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2006, 07:18 AM   #59
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, UK
Posts: 321
Hi chaps

just wanted to let you know that I have the PAL Canon HV10 and in shutter priority 25 is does indeed appear to shoot progressive - there are no horizonatal artifacts and the image is good - particularly useful in low light/outdoor shots. There is of course some blurring compared to shutter 50. I would also point out that in my opinion (viewed on 24 inch CRT 1920x1200 Sony FW900 monitor) there is some loss in resultion and infact material shot with higher shutter speeds looks sharper when played back in VLC using the BOB deinterlace function. Having said that 25 is really sueful and does have a certain look.

I have posted some samples in the HV10 forum but am happy to post some here if anyone wants to see what the same scene in 25 v 50 looks like

Cheers
Fergus
Fergus Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 8th, 2008, 08:47 PM   #60
Tourist
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Lima - Peru
Posts: 1
Hi,

For those interested in HC1's 30p trick, i found something interesting:

1. Shoot with shutter speed at 1/30.
2. Easy-setup FCP 6 to 1030p30 basic firewire
3. Capture the footage.
4. Put it on a new 1080p30 sequence and click "no" when FCP asks to reset to 1080i60.
5. Edit (if you want to)
6. Export to quicktime movie HDV 1080p30 and watch the results in a progressive monitor.

I don't know exactly what is happening in this process, but as far as I can see (please tell me if I'm wrong) the resulting footage is clean full resolution 1080p30.
Capi Baigorria is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Sony XAVC / XDCAM / NXCAM / AVCHD / HDV / DV Camera Systems > Sony HDV and DV Camera Systems > Sony HVR-A1 and HDR-HC Series

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:42 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network