Shooting progressive with HC1?

Thomas Smet · December 3rd, 2006, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

I really love the footage from the HC1 but it only shoots interlaced footage, plain and simple.

The Cinema Effect mode has progressive frames, plain and simple. While they may or may not have the full resolution (I did not measure nor do I ever measure the resolution of a camera) the frames have no aliasing or pixelated edges due to a deinterlaced frame. When it comes to progressive this is all that matters to me. A clean image.

The 1/30th shutter is also much more then just frame blended. I suggest you try it if you have a HC1. The look isn't for everybody but from what I can tell the images are clean looking progressive images that I can process almost in realtime. In fact I'm sure something like Cineform could be made to capture this format in realtime and pull out the progressive frames so there would be no processing for us to do.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 3rd, 2006, 10:42 PM

Coupla comments, as this horse is about beaten to death (as in pretty well every other thread on the subject dating back a while);

~Check the resolution, you'll be surprised.
~The CineForm crew are on this forum quite regularly, you might ask them about authoring something specific for processing 1/30 shutter speed. I'd think they'll decline for at least three reasons;
1/30 is barely usable for most shooting.
The HC1 is discontinued and has been for a while. We're also seeing the death of interlace-only camcorders.
Some NLE's can already process this correctly, but few users are interested in the production workflow and the application workflow.

Not that many people are going to film these days, but 30p can't be properly converted to 24p for film out, nor can it be matched to a 24p camcorder very well. With the proliferation of 24p camcorders at all levels, I'd think that forward-thinking folks would want all their media to be compatible with whatever it needs to be. 60i is significantly easier to take to 24p, 25p.

All that said, the camcorders are supposed to be fun to mess with, experiment with, and create media that's not destined for professional output or broadcast use. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I forget that aspect of this community.

Michael Jordan · December 5th, 2006, 12:15 AM

Wow, I am sorry I started a bit of a heated discussion! I assure you that was not my intention. :)

Thanks to some of you for giving me the correct words. It is true that I didn't mean I expected a truly progressive image, rather I expected both fields of the frame to have been recorded at the same "temporal" point so that, during motion, interlaced lines do not reveal themselves as different even though they are present.

It is very interesting that you were able to get the "bb cc dd" output from avisynth!

I very much appreciate all the effort that was put in to answering my question. Thank you!

Mikko Lopponen · December 5th, 2006, 11:38 AM

I've been using 1/25 on my european hc1 in low-light situations. It really helps.

BTW, had my first problem with the wrong field order in 1/25 material. A slowmotion effect wouldn't render properly (didn't help if set on no fields, upper or lower first) until I manually corrected the fields.

Yiannis Kall · December 5th, 2006, 12:38 PM

the Cinema Effect mode is a bit jerky
how can i double the frames from 25 to 50?

thanks

Graham Hickling · December 6th, 2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

Huh? Any movement or slanted lines shown using pairs of identical fields will definitely NOT be the same as progressive.

Sorry but I don't agree with this. At a 1/30th setting, an image is recorded for 1/30 of a second into an electronic buffer. The chip then refreshes and records for another 1/30th of a second. There is simply no temporal "gap" in recording to cause the kinds of problems you are referring to.

The 1/30th exposure is then send to two 1/60th fields ... thus as DSE says, resolution is roughly halved and it has (obviously) a characteristic 1/30th second shutter blur - this will limit the usefulness of the footage for most people.

John McManimie · December 6th, 2006, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hickling

Sorry but I don't agree with this. At a 1/30th setting, an image is recorded for 1/30 of a second into an electronic buffer. The chip then refreshes and records for another 1/30th of a second. There is simply no temporal "gap" in recording to cause the kinds of problems you are referring to.

To paraphrase Douglas Spotted Eagle, this horse is dead.

The same data is recorded for each field. The data from field one does not actually belong in field two, so it ends up being spatially incorrect. However, it can be good enough to trick the eyes and blur hides a lot of the stepping of lines (It will be quite unnoticeable if down-converted to SD). But it never will be the same as an image from a progressive camera.

But, it doesn't really matter. If you like the look, use it.

Graham Hickling · December 7th, 2006, 02:42 PM

But one doesn't render back to fields - the aim is 30P. So the 'single field' image expands to fill the frame, and similarly the 1/30th time interval. Resolution is lost (as everyone agrees) but quite simply there are NO stepping lines.

I apologise for going on about this for so long, but it's frustrating that people keep making this statement.

John McManimie · December 7th, 2006, 08:10 PM

I own an HC1. I have shot footage at 1/30 and with the cinema effect before. I've even recommended the cinema effect as a creative alternative in posts on this board and I feel that if you like the footage from it or 1/30, then that is great. However, I have seen stepping that kind of shrinks and grows and changes shape on angled lines with movement --- subtle but definitely there. But apparently you have not seen this and feel that the HC1 produces progressive footage with no interlace artifacts. That is excellent. I really have nothing more to add to this topic.

Mikko Lopponen · December 8th, 2006, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

However, I have seen stepping that kind of shrinks and grows and changes shape on angled lines with movement --- subtle but definitely there. But apparently you have not seen this and feel that the HC1 produces progressive footage with no interlace artifacts.

Oh dear, did you even read this thread?

The hc1 encodes those fields improperly on the hc1 using a shutter of 1/30, that's why there are lines. There should not be and they are easy to remove with a field swap ending with a progressive frame. If you use an interlaced monitor to watch your material you won't notice the swap, but progressive monitors will show it. Try 1/4th shutter for an example of a properly coded frame.

Here's a clip where I had some problems with those low shutter interlace artifacts, but I managed to remove them. Light was occasionally very low so a 1/25 shutter was necessary. Noise was absolutely overkill in some shots. Encoded with divx.

http://hmcindie.pp.fi/movies/Fantasy%20klub%20divx.avi

Mikko Lopponen · December 8th, 2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

The data from field one does not actually belong in field two, so it ends up being spatially incorrect.

What's wrong here? We are talking about lower shutter speeds than the standard 1/60 so there won't be any spatial incorrectness.

Graham's explanation is correct.

Mikko Lopponen · December 8th, 2006, 02:46 AM

The same kind of interlace swap can be seen in some movies / tv series that have been transferred from film to video. 25 fps which is correct here in pal, but some scenes can have swapped fields if done improperly. That means when viewing the material on a progressive monitor it will show fields in some scenes, eventhough the material is progressive at 25 fps. Interlaced tv's still show them right (because the fields are still the same).

Is the material interlaced when there are interlace lines eventhough it's in reality 25p?

Thomas Smet · December 8th, 2006, 09:20 AM

I really don't even care if the camera has lower resolution when using a 1/30th shutter. To me a clean looking image is what matters and I can tell you that this trick makes some very clean looking images. I have shot dozens of samples and so far none of them show any interlaced or aliased lines at all. Angled edges are clean as they are in progressive images. There is also more going on here then just field blending. With field blending you can since the half and half blended frames during a freeze frame of an object in motion. It will look like ghosting. With the 1/30th shutter the same type of motion with look like real motion blur where the blur has a gradient that blends into the solid part of the object and not just a half transparent object blended on top. It looks exactly how animation looks when rendered in After Effects with a motion blur level of 360 degrees. Yes things are very blurry but it does seem to be a natural blur and the image seems perfectly clean.

I know this isn't the way we are all used to slower shutter speeds but then again this camera is pretty unique all around. Again, I am not going to shoot a resolution chart because I could care less how many lines the camera resolves. All I want is a clean image which so far it seems to do very well.

Would I use the 1/30th shutter? Most likely no. That is because I do not like 30p but prefer 24p or 25p. Now if somebody has a PAL HC1 they may be able to use this trick for some great stuff that could be retimed by 4% to 24p. I retimed some of the 1/30th stuff to 24p and it looks nice. It is a little blurry but it looks nice.

I'm really glad to see this discussion. Some may say this topic has been beaten to death but then there is a reason why it keeps coming up. If you are somebody who doesn't like to use the camera in that way then don't use it that way. Nobody is forcing you to use a shutter of 1/30th. If somebody can find some great use for this trick then I am glad it works for you. The great thing about art is that there isn't supposed to be any rules. Nobody would tell Andy Warhol that he isn't using his paint brush the correct way. There are some that may say video isn't supposed to be artistic and there are set rules but I do not agree with that. There are two schools of thought here. One is the commercial aspect of video where it needs to be done a certain way to make money. The other way is an artistic movement that views video as a artistic medium where rules can change and we are only limited by our imagination. Every now and again somebody will use these new tools to break the rules and create something nobody thought of before. After that everybody tries to copy that new method forgetting what it means to experiment with the camera and come up with their own style and own set of rules. Just watch out. Who knows. Maybe someday somebody will use a PAL HC1 to create a movie for Sundance using a 1/25th shutter and people will love it.

Fergus Anderson · December 14th, 2006, 07:18 AM

Hi chaps

just wanted to let you know that I have the PAL Canon HV10 and in shutter priority 25 is does indeed appear to shoot progressive - there are no horizonatal artifacts and the image is good - particularly useful in low light/outdoor shots. There is of course some blurring compared to shutter 50. I would also point out that in my opinion (viewed on 24 inch CRT 1920x1200 Sony FW900 monitor) there is some loss in resultion and infact material shot with higher shutter speeds looks sharper when played back in VLC using the BOB deinterlace function. Having said that 25 is really sueful and does have a certain look.

I have posted some samples in the HV10 forum but am happy to post some here if anyone wants to see what the same scene in 25 v 50 looks like

Cheers
Fergus

Capi Baigorria · April 8th, 2008, 07:47 PM

Hi,

For those interested in HC1's 30p trick, i found something interesting:

1. Shoot with shutter speed at 1/30.
2. Easy-setup FCP 6 to 1030p30 basic firewire
3. Capture the footage.
4. Put it on a new 1080p30 sequence and click "no" when FCP asks to reset to 1080i60.
5. Edit (if you want to)
6. Export to quicktime movie HDV 1080p30 and watch the results in a progressive monitor.

I don't know exactly what is happening in this process, but as far as I can see (please tell me if I'm wrong) the resulting footage is clean full resolution 1080p30.

December 3rd, 2006, 10:42 PM	#47
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Coupla comments, as this horse is about beaten to death (as in pretty well every other thread on the subject dating back a while); ~Check the resolution, you'll be surprised. ~The CineForm crew are on this forum quite regularly, you might ask them about authoring something specific for processing 1/30 shutter speed. I'd think they'll decline for at least three reasons; 1/30 is barely usable for most shooting. The HC1 is discontinued and has been for a while. We're also seeing the death of interlace-only camcorders. Some NLE's can already process this correctly, but few users are interested in the production workflow and the application workflow. Not that many people are going to film these days, but 30p can't be properly converted to 24p for film out, nor can it be matched to a 24p camcorder very well. With the proliferation of 24p camcorders at all levels, I'd think that forward-thinking folks would want all their media to be compatible with whatever it needs to be. 60i is significantly easier to take to 24p, 25p. All that said, the camcorders are supposed to be fun to mess with, experiment with, and create media that's not destined for professional output or broadcast use. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I forget that aspect of this community. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

December 5th, 2006, 11:38 AM	#49
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	I've been using 1/25 on my european hc1 in low-light situations. It really helps. BTW, had my first problem with the wrong field order in 1/25 material. A slowmotion effect wouldn't render properly (didn't help if set on no fields, upper or lower first) until I manually corrected the fields. Last edited by Mikko Lopponen; December 5th, 2006 at 01:52 PM.

December 7th, 2006, 08:10 PM	#54
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	I own an HC1. I have shot footage at 1/30 and with the cinema effect before. I've even recommended the cinema effect as a creative alternative in posts on this board and I feel that if you like the footage from it or 1/30, then that is great. However, I have seen stepping that kind of shrinks and grows and changes shape on angled lines with movement --- subtle but definitely there. But apparently you have not seen this and feel that the HC1 produces progressive footage with no interlace artifacts. That is excellent. I really have nothing more to add to this topic. Last edited by John McManimie; December 7th, 2006 at 10:40 PM.

December 5th, 2006, 12:15 AM	#48
Michael Jordan New Boot Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 16	Wow, I am sorry I started a bit of a heated discussion! I assure you that was not my intention. :) Thanks to some of you for giving me the correct words. It is true that I didn't mean I expected a truly progressive image, rather I expected both fields of the frame to have been recorded at the same "temporal" point so that, during motion, interlaced lines do not reveal themselves as different even though they are present. It is very interesting that you were able to get the "bb cc dd" output from avisynth! I very much appreciate all the effort that was put in to answering my question. Thank you!

December 5th, 2006, 12:38 PM	#50
Yiannis Kall Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Greece-Athens Posts: 37	the Cinema Effect mode is a bit jerky how can i double the frames from 25 to 50? thanks

December 7th, 2006, 02:42 PM	#53
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	But one doesn't render back to fields - the aim is 30P. So the 'single field' image expands to fill the frame, and similarly the 1/30th time interval. Resolution is lost (as everyone agrees) but quite simply there are NO stepping lines. I apologise for going on about this for so long, but it's frustrating that people keep making this statement.

December 8th, 2006, 02:46 AM	#57
Mikko Lopponen Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 393	The same kind of interlace swap can be seen in some movies / tv series that have been transferred from film to video. 25 fps which is correct here in pal, but some scenes can have swapped fields if done improperly. That means when viewing the material on a progressive monitor it will show fields in some scenes, eventhough the material is progressive at 25 fps. Interlaced tv's still show them right (because the fields are still the same). Is the material interlaced when there are interlace lines eventhough it's in reality 25p?

December 8th, 2006, 09:20 AM	#58
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	I really don't even care if the camera has lower resolution when using a 1/30th shutter. To me a clean looking image is what matters and I can tell you that this trick makes some very clean looking images. I have shot dozens of samples and so far none of them show any interlaced or aliased lines at all. Angled edges are clean as they are in progressive images. There is also more going on here then just field blending. With field blending you can since the half and half blended frames during a freeze frame of an object in motion. It will look like ghosting. With the 1/30th shutter the same type of motion with look like real motion blur where the blur has a gradient that blends into the solid part of the object and not just a half transparent object blended on top. It looks exactly how animation looks when rendered in After Effects with a motion blur level of 360 degrees. Yes things are very blurry but it does seem to be a natural blur and the image seems perfectly clean. I know this isn't the way we are all used to slower shutter speeds but then again this camera is pretty unique all around. Again, I am not going to shoot a resolution chart because I could care less how many lines the camera resolves. All I want is a clean image which so far it seems to do very well. Would I use the 1/30th shutter? Most likely no. That is because I do not like 30p but prefer 24p or 25p. Now if somebody has a PAL HC1 they may be able to use this trick for some great stuff that could be retimed by 4% to 24p. I retimed some of the 1/30th stuff to 24p and it looks nice. It is a little blurry but it looks nice. I'm really glad to see this discussion. Some may say this topic has been beaten to death but then there is a reason why it keeps coming up. If you are somebody who doesn't like to use the camera in that way then don't use it that way. Nobody is forcing you to use a shutter of 1/30th. If somebody can find some great use for this trick then I am glad it works for you. The great thing about art is that there isn't supposed to be any rules. Nobody would tell Andy Warhol that he isn't using his paint brush the correct way. There are some that may say video isn't supposed to be artistic and there are set rules but I do not agree with that. There are two schools of thought here. One is the commercial aspect of video where it needs to be done a certain way to make money. The other way is an artistic movement that views video as a artistic medium where rules can change and we are only limited by our imagination. Every now and again somebody will use these new tools to break the rules and create something nobody thought of before. After that everybody tries to copy that new method forgetting what it means to experiment with the camera and come up with their own style and own set of rules. Just watch out. Who knows. Maybe someday somebody will use a PAL HC1 to create a movie for Sundance using a 1/25th shutter and people will love it.

December 14th, 2006, 07:18 AM	#59
Fergus Anderson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 321	Hi chaps just wanted to let you know that I have the PAL Canon HV10 and in shutter priority 25 is does indeed appear to shoot progressive - there are no horizonatal artifacts and the image is good - particularly useful in low light/outdoor shots. There is of course some blurring compared to shutter 50. I would also point out that in my opinion (viewed on 24 inch CRT 1920x1200 Sony FW900 monitor) there is some loss in resultion and infact material shot with higher shutter speeds looks sharper when played back in VLC using the BOB deinterlace function. Having said that 25 is really sueful and does have a certain look. I have posted some samples in the HV10 forum but am happy to post some here if anyone wants to see what the same scene in 25 v 50 looks like Cheers Fergus

April 8th, 2008, 07:47 PM	#60
Capi Baigorria Tourist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Lima - Peru Posts: 1	Hi, For those interested in HC1's 30p trick, i found something interesting: 1. Shoot with shutter speed at 1/30. 2. Easy-setup FCP 6 to 1030p30 basic firewire 3. Capture the footage. 4. Put it on a new 1080p30 sequence and click "no" when FCP asks to reset to 1080i60. 5. Edit (if you want to) 6. Export to quicktime movie HDV 1080p30 and watch the results in a progressive monitor. I don't know exactly what is happening in this process, but as far as I can see (please tell me if I'm wrong) the resulting footage is clean full resolution 1080p30.