Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

Robert Young · July 26th, 2010, 01:07 PM

I did particularly notice the parade shot, and it did look like a $200 DV Handicam.
It was somewhat perplexing: was it a DR shortcoming of the camera, or just a crappy day for shooting?
I shoot a lot in the tropics. Sometimes we have days where the sky is white due to haze, overcast, whatever, and the shot looks lousy no matter what camera is used. I usually end up tweaking the sky color in post to get around it.
The DR on the rest of the footage I've seen looks pretty good, and it's hard to imagine Sony would put out a 1" chip cam that didn't have good DR.
Honestly, if I had done that movie, I would have either tweaked, or deep sixed the parade shots.

Dave Blackhurst · July 26th, 2010, 01:18 PM

Steve -
A couple reviews I've read indicate that the NEX5 camera tends to overexpose significantly, this is a very common thing with Sony cameras in my experience, and easy enough to adjust in most of them. Since the VG10 is supposedly based off the NEX5, it could be a "carryover" in the firmware. I don't know of any reason it shouldn't have adequate DR, and in fact probably has DRO (dynamic range optimization) features as do most all the Sony still cams, and I believe the last couple generations of consumer handycams

Robert -
The NEX3 and 5 have apparently been selling like sliced bread hotcakes in Japan (very very HOT) - lens adapters are being announced practically every day for various mounts, I'd expect the lens options to be nearly limitless, probably including a lot of unusual lenses as well as the "popular" mounts. I wouldn't expect auto iris for the majority of them - the Alpha mount has a legacy factor with Sony, and while they left off auto focus (A mounts have the motor in th body, with the attached noise problem, one of the reasons Sony was delaying releasing HDVSLRs), but they probably "wired through" the necessary contacts for f stiop adjustments. It's possible that 3rd party adapters could also provide a "pass through", but I'd expect technical issues to make this a case by case basis. You can already buy a bunch of different adapters from what I saw when I looked on eBay...

Daniel Browning · July 26th, 2010, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

This camera could be a dream machine by adding a nanoFlash so you can get any framerate and very high bitrate.

My guess is that the frame rate is limited by the sensor as well. Hopefully they'll make rapid progress there in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

I hope that the cameramen and editors of this video just don't have a clue and that is why the DR appears to be so low.

Me too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

For it to be a serious video camera, it MUST compete with the 12/13 stops of the 7D/5D.

I expect it will be similar to the 7D with the correct settings. BTW, the 7D and 5D2 are only good for about 8-10 stops (depending on the white balance) before you get really nasty pattern noise (lines in the shadows). If they fix that for the next Canon, we'll get 13+ stops (at least when shooting raw).

Steve Mullen · July 26th, 2010, 05:31 PM

A review site found DR to be 8 stops at ISO 200 (Minimum gain). It has been reported that it tends to over-expose which could be a way of saying low DR or saying AE is off. If the latter, one hopes there is a menu bias adjustment to lower AE.

Other questions:

Multiple gamma curves?

Knee?

Black compress?

Black stretch?

PS: "BTW, the 7D and 5D2 are only good for about 8-10 stops" One has to be very careful of "claims" of much more than 8-10 stops with any inexpensive camera.

Robert Young · July 26th, 2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

A review site found DR to be 8 stops at ISO 200 (Minimum gain)

Steve
Was that a review of the NEX-5 still cam, or the VG10? If it's the VG10, could you post a link to that review site?
I haven't seen any reports that detailed yet & would love to take a look.
Thanks

Steve Kalle · July 26th, 2010, 06:25 PM

I feel like an idiot. The # of stops I referred to was actually their Raw still images according to the Zacuto videos.

Dave Blackhurst · July 26th, 2010, 07:07 PM

and of course there will be some difference between still and video performance... generally I've noticed you gan "get away with" noise in video that would never pass in a still...

Steve -

Sony almost always has an adjustment to AE, and with manual exposure, you could do what you want.

I don't expect to see any of those other features, at least not in the $2K consumer version, though a "pro" version certainly seems logical.

Steve Mullen · July 27th, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Young

Steve
Was that a review of the NEX-5 still cam, or the VG10? If it's the VG10, could you post a link to that review site?
I haven't seen any reports that detailed yet & would love to take a look.
Thanks

Sorry, no review yet of the VG10. But, it was a review of the NEX-5 video. I suspect there won't be a lot of difference. Which is why there might not be many or any additional video functions.

I worry that, like the NEX-5, there will be no way to set shutter-speed when shooing video. If this is the case, we are back to the days of the JVC-HD10 and 30p being shot at high shutter-speeds and thus strobing video.

There is likely to be no switchable ND filter. But, with the large sensor, at least smaller aperatures can be chosen, although f/11 is likely going to be the limit. Thankfully the 10X is really slow. :)

Monday Isa · July 27th, 2010, 05:22 AM

Hey Steve there is full manual control on the nex-vg10 as long as you use the e-mount lenses. There is a 30min limit on the clips which I thought was not there but it's there. Maybe it's because it was a production model. The only basic things missing are presets, ND filters, additional frame-rates, and XLR inputs. One other thing is when using the e-adapter to alpha mount you have no control over the Alpha mount lens but it is defaulted to wide open. I have a friend who was allowed to test the camera and he passed along this info. I was very happy he did.

Monday

Bruce Dempsey · July 27th, 2010, 05:40 AM

Action stills while recording video is my holy grail.
Will tthe nexvg10 shoot stills while recording video? One card slot for the vid and the other for stills?
The demo video of the Bali dancer seems to imply 7 shot burst in video mode but that might have been an unintentional implication created during the edit.

The fx7 will snap a still while recording to tape with no interruption of the video.
However video is paused for the stillshot if the camera is in standby mode and outputting video to a tethered device

Monday Isa · July 27th, 2010, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey

Action stills while recording video is my holy grail.
Will tthe nexvg10 shoot stills while recording video? One card slot for the vid and the other for stills?
The demo video of the Bali dancer seems to imply 7 shot burst in video mode but that might have been an unintentional implication created during the edit.

It does but there is a stop in the video recording exactly like the Canon DSLR's do. I was bummed out to hear that.

Steve Mullen · July 27th, 2010, 05:45 AM

As long as the VG10 enables setting the shutter-speed -- all is well.

Now not to be a worry wort, but in one of the NEX-5 reviews they warned that many users will think they have shutter-control not realizing that once they start shooting video they don't. No warning that the speed is automatic.

Sony has traditionally NOT allowed shutter control on consumer camcorders because it is far easier to VERY accurately control shutter speed to control exposure. Control of iris is much more sluggish -- which is why they have allowed you to control it.

So unless one used a light meter to determine what the speed and iris SHOULD be

AND

the camera displays both shutter speed and aperture -- it is very hard to know one has set a specific speed.

Many DSLR users were fooled for days.

So if you could, please ask HOW your friend was sure they had shutter-speed control.

And, does the person remember what shutter-speeds were supported.

Thank you.

Monday Isa · July 27th, 2010, 07:38 AM

Steve the NEX-5 is completely different from the NEX-VG10. The NEX-VG10 has FULL manual controls. You can select the Aperture value, Gain, and Shutter Speed and WB (presets + custom) with no exposure shifts. You have AV, TV, A, M modes. Also you never had full manual controls on the FX1, FX1000, FX7, VX2000, VX2100? Those were all consumer cameras if I recall.

Steve Mullen · July 27th, 2010, 10:58 AM

Great to hear the NEX-5 and VG10 are different. I was beginning to believe they were exactly the same firmware and controls.

The FX-series were prosumer. I'm talking about real consumer camcorders like the CX-12. At it's price, the VG10 falls into the pure consumer range. So if it gets full manual it will be an advance.

Robert Young · July 27th, 2010, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monday Isa

One other thing is when using the e-adapter to alpha mount you have no control over the Alpha mount lens but it is defaulted to wide open. I have a friend who was allowed to test the camera and he passed along this info. I was very happy he did.

Monday

According to Sony, the A mount lenses do have camera controlled f stop with the Sony E to A adapter:

"Unleash your creativity. Designed exclusively for the α NEX-3 and NEX-5 cameras, the LA-EA1 α mount adapter lets you to mount α A-mount lenses to your E-mount camera body. Additionally, this adapter has Auto Exposure support with aperture mechanism and includes a detachable tripod attachment."
I notice that there is no direct reference to the VG10, but you wouldn't expect the situation to be any different.

July 26th, 2010, 01:07 PM	#166
Robert Young Trustee Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Coronado Island Posts: 1,472	I did particularly notice the parade shot, and it did look like a $200 DV Handicam. It was somewhat perplexing: was it a DR shortcoming of the camera, or just a crappy day for shooting? I shoot a lot in the tropics. Sometimes we have days where the sky is white due to haze, overcast, whatever, and the shot looks lousy no matter what camera is used. I usually end up tweaking the sky color in post to get around it. The DR on the rest of the footage I've seen looks pretty good, and it's hard to imagine Sony would put out a 1" chip cam that didn't have good DR. Honestly, if I had done that movie, I would have either tweaked, or deep sixed the parade shots. __________________ Bob

July 26th, 2010, 05:31 PM	#169
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	A review site found DR to be 8 stops at ISO 200 (Minimum gain). It has been reported that it tends to over-expose which could be a way of saying low DR or saying AE is off. If the latter, one hopes there is a menu bias adjustment to lower AE. Other questions: Multiple gamma curves? Knee? Black compress? Black stretch? PS: "BTW, the 7D and 5D2 are only good for about 8-10 stops" One has to be very careful of "claims" of much more than 8-10 stops with any inexpensive camera. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 27th, 2010, 05:40 AM	#175
Bruce Dempsey Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Atlantic Coast Canada Posts: 599	Will it shoot stills while in video mode Action stills while recording video is my holy grail. Will tthe nexvg10 shoot stills while recording video? One card slot for the vid and the other for stills? The demo video of the Bali dancer seems to imply 7 shot burst in video mode but that might have been an unintentional implication created during the edit. The fx7 will snap a still while recording to tape with no interruption of the video. However video is paused for the stillshot if the camera is in standby mode and outputting video to a tethered device Last edited by Bruce Dempsey; July 27th, 2010 at 07:34 AM.

July 27th, 2010, 05:45 AM	#177
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	As long as the VG10 enables setting the shutter-speed -- all is well. Now not to be a worry wort, but in one of the NEX-5 reviews they warned that many users will think they have shutter-control not realizing that once they start shooting video they don't. No warning that the speed is automatic. Sony has traditionally NOT allowed shutter control on consumer camcorders because it is far easier to VERY accurately control shutter speed to control exposure. Control of iris is much more sluggish -- which is why they have allowed you to control it. So unless one used a light meter to determine what the speed and iris SHOULD be AND the camera displays both shutter speed and aperture -- it is very hard to know one has set a specific speed. Many DSLR users were fooled for days. So if you could, please ask HOW your friend was sure they had shutter-speed control. And, does the person remember what shutter-speeds were supported. Thank you. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 27th, 2010, 10:58 AM	#179
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Great to hear the NEX-5 and VG10 are different. I was beginning to believe they were exactly the same firmware and controls. The FX-series were prosumer. I'm talking about real consumer camcorders like the CX-12. At it's price, the VG10 falls into the pure consumer range. So if it gets full manual it will be an advance. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 26th, 2010, 01:18 PM	#167
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Steve - A couple reviews I've read indicate that the NEX5 camera tends to overexpose significantly, this is a very common thing with Sony cameras in my experience, and easy enough to adjust in most of them. Since the VG10 is supposedly based off the NEX5, it could be a "carryover" in the firmware. I don't know of any reason it shouldn't have adequate DR, and in fact probably has DRO (dynamic range optimization) features as do most all the Sony still cams, and I believe the last couple generations of consumer handycams Robert - The NEX3 and 5 have apparently been selling like sliced bread hotcakes in Japan (very very HOT) - lens adapters are being announced practically every day for various mounts, I'd expect the lens options to be nearly limitless, probably including a lot of unusual lenses as well as the "popular" mounts. I wouldn't expect auto iris for the majority of them - the Alpha mount has a legacy factor with Sony, and while they left off auto focus (A mounts have the motor in th body, with the attached noise problem, one of the reasons Sony was delaying releasing HDVSLRs), but they probably "wired through" the necessary contacts for f stiop adjustments. It's possible that 3rd party adapters could also provide a "pass through", but I'd expect technical issues to make this a case by case basis. You can already buy a bunch of different adapters from what I saw when I looked on eBay...

July 26th, 2010, 06:25 PM	#171
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	I feel like an idiot. The # of stops I referred to was actually their Raw still images according to the Zacuto videos.

July 26th, 2010, 07:07 PM	#172
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	and of course there will be some difference between still and video performance... generally I've noticed you gan "get away with" noise in video that would never pass in a still... Steve - Sony almost always has an adjustment to AE, and with manual exposure, you could do what you want. I don't expect to see any of those other features, at least not in the $2K consumer version, though a "pro" version certainly seems logical.

July 27th, 2010, 05:22 AM	#174
Monday Isa Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: College Park, Maryland Posts: 913	Hey Steve there is full manual control on the nex-vg10 as long as you use the e-mount lenses. There is a 30min limit on the clips which I thought was not there but it's there. Maybe it's because it was a production model. The only basic things missing are presets, ND filters, additional frame-rates, and XLR inputs. One other thing is when using the e-adapter to alpha mount you have no control over the Alpha mount lens but it is defaulted to wide open. I have a friend who was allowed to test the camera and he passed along this info. I was very happy he did. Monday

July 27th, 2010, 07:38 AM	#178
Monday Isa Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: College Park, Maryland Posts: 913	Steve the NEX-5 is completely different from the NEX-VG10. The NEX-VG10 has FULL manual controls. You can select the Aperture value, Gain, and Shutter Speed and WB (presets + custom) with no exposure shifts. You have AV, TV, A, M modes. Also you never had full manual controls on the FX1, FX1000, FX7, VX2000, VX2100? Those were all consumer cameras if I recall.