Anyone seeing any rolling shutter issues? at DVinfo.net

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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old December 1st, 2007, 12:44 PM   #1
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Anyone seeing any rolling shutter issues?

By accident I started reading a thread on the Panasonic forum about the Ex1 versus the HVX200. It was actually very interesting! To say the least there was a very different tone to the discussion than here. Our joy and thrill about the camera was replaced with people saying that it is more or less crap since it uses a rolling shutter. See for yourself here: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109191


So I guess my question is: Now that there are camera is out, has anyone seen any alarming issues involving the rolling shutter?

/ola
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Old December 1st, 2007, 12:46 PM   #2
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None so far..
Some want to compare the EX1 to the HV20 rolling shutter issues, but all thing are not designed the same. Even the RED is using a rolling shutter.

We used it under stadium lighting at a soccer game and it was solid.

Now, let the "yeah, but how about? continue.....
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Old December 1st, 2007, 01:14 PM   #3
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It's not going to continue on DVINFO. That other thread is getting some 'pruning' because we don't allow bashing on our site. We also don't appreciate our users posting links to other forums that compete with our sponsors for advertising and the like.

Why? Well just imagine if I walked onto a set where you were a cameraman and advised the producer that they should go hire this other cameraman I know about. Or what if you owned a restaurant and I walked in and told your customers to go eat at the other place down the road.

You also don't see your local tv stations promoting their competition either.

Thanks for understanding,

Greg Boston
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Old December 1st, 2007, 02:04 PM   #4
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The only thing I've seen so far is that flash bulbs will cause a bar or half frame exposure or something like that.
\ People have reported bending verticals on pans but only at such a high speed pan that it wouldn't concern most people. No one has seen it on traffic or ordinary images so far as I have read.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 04:50 PM   #5
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I'm not sure why there is so much hysteria about rolling shutter, other than certain people having a bias against this camera or Sony in general.

The choice to use CMOS is nothing new. RED uses it, Ikegami uses it, and Thomson Grass Valley developed their own for their Infinity camera. Engineers from all of these well respected companies made this technology choice for a reason. CMOS offers real advantages like no vertical smear, wider dynamic range, lower power consumption and improved signal-to-noise performance. We've already seen the benefits in the EX1. People seem to be very happy with the image quality and the low noise performance. But like with all technologies, this one is not perfect and there is a trade-off. With CMOS rolling shutter it's skew and partial exposure. CCDs have trade-offs too like more power consumption and vertical smear.

In both cases, the trade-off only affects very specific situations and you just have to be aware of them. Even the flash partial exposure doesn't happen in all situations. I did a test with my HV10 and found the partial exposure was affected by shutter speed and flash duration and even then it doesn't happen all the time at normal shutter speeds of 1/30 or 1/60.

If your work involves the specific situations that CMOS does not do well in, then choosing a CCD-based camera would be a good idea. But for some people to discount the entire camera based on these small trade-offs and to ignore all of the improved benefits while also insulting a product engineering department as essentially incompetent seems very strange or just biased.
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Old December 1st, 2007, 05:23 PM   #6
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You have to consider the source of the "wobble post".

No one who has used the camera has spoken of a wobble problem. Take a close look at the people who claim there is a wobble and you find most of them are just repeating what they have read. You will also find the the handful of people making the original comments make their living supplying info and support on Panasonic products. One in particular wrote a whole article on wobble that was meant to be an assassination of the EX before it was even delivered.

Funny thing is Sony dropped the ball with the lens giving them plenty to talk about without making things up. Though they might not want to run with that one since if you look closely Panasonic has had their own quality control issues with the card slots on a few cameras.

Last edited by Kyle Self; December 1st, 2007 at 05:24 PM. Reason: typo
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Old December 1st, 2007, 10:40 PM   #7
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I don't think Barry Green did this as an attack on the sony ex1 at all, but rather an informative article on what weaknesses are in cmos and ccds and the tradeoffs for each. So you think these issues should be hidden and not known to the public. Do you own an ex. If so, go film a concert and tell us how it turned out. If you don't have an ex, then don't claim there isn't wobble.Sony mentions the issues in their own manual. Obviously, camera manufactures may be perfecting the known issues and reducing them to a minimum. The Sony ex1 looks like the real deal and I guarantee you that the rolling shutter is not an issue for me. I never film things with strobes or flashes going off. However, there Will be wobble to a certain degree. I don't think bashing Barry Green is healthy for the independent film community because he provides a wealth of information for many camera users across forums and books.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 12:35 AM   #8
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I don't think Kyle was bashing anyone, just making a fair observation without naming names. It doesn't take a semantics expert to verify his comments; just take a cursory glance at how camera discussions are framed in certain spaces on the web. A number of experts clearly champion particular brands, and while that's their prerogative (we all have preferences), they should expect to have their bias acknowledged when they chose to involve themselves in discussions of competing brand's products, and more so when their opinion is held in high esteem.

Thankfully DVinfo is the closest thing to a spin free zone in the video world, so this is the place I choose to visit when I want diverse user opinions. It's refreshing.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 12:59 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Edwards View Post
I don't think Barry Green did this as an attack on the sony ex1 at all, but rather an informative article on what weaknesses are in cmos and ccds and the tradeoffs for each. I don't think bashing Barry Green is healthy for the independent film community because he provides a wealth of information for many camera users across forums and books.
Before the V1 came-out I also wrote a "how CMOS work" story so I can understand Barry doing so. BUT, I added an equal amount of information on HOW Sony's CMOS 3ClearVid differs from previous CMOS.

So, the question is, did Barry fully understand the EXMOR technology and include this? Or, did he intentionally write about a previous generations of CMOS technology so he could show it's CLAIMED short comings compared to CCDs? Writing an honest "informative" story is fine.

One year's time is nothing in the progress of CCDs. They are essentially now at their optimum performance level. A year's time in CMOS progress is huge. Each year brings solutions to what were perceived problems in the previous generation.

I say "perceived" because most folks shooting with the V1 have no real world problems with rolling shutter. But, some may. I suspect that XMOR technology reduces the chance to near zero.

Compare the cost-benefit ratio with that of vertical smear from CCDs. I think most folks would rather be certain of no vertical smear and risk the tiny probability of rolling-shutter.

I also think given the comparisons of SxS vs P2 cost, 1920x1080 vs 960x540 rez., and 1/2" vs 1/3" that until NAB there is going to a concerted -- read desperate -- attempt to bash the EX1.

PS: Over the last decade -- every camcorder manufacturer has had problems with at least one model in the first month of introduction. I used to have to accept tongue lashings by my Japanese distributors on the defects they found in products we shipped them. Defects that our American buyers never noticed. I find it ironic that now we are the ones finding defects.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; December 2nd, 2007 at 02:42 AM.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 01:22 AM   #10
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I want to defend Barry here as well, while maybe the tone of his posts was a bit defensive, it was in the context of a post that asked "Is the EX-1 going to kill the HVX". All he did was say wait a minute here are the potential issues with rolling shutters. He also said maybe Sony has solved these problems and he acknowledged that Red was also a rolling shutter.
Actually his posts were really infomative to me and he suggested a series of tests to put the EX-1 through for me - most of which it passed.

Someone else on one of the the HVX or P2 boards ( actually it might have been on DVInfo net!) was really putting down the EX-1 without having seen it at all, but it wasn't Barry.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 05:11 AM   #11
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I know there are problems with "any new technology" but that fact that there is such a shortage on Ex1s mean I would have to have until new year anyway which means I am going to put off buying one for a while to see if there are any more issues with the camera.

Love the excitement of a new camera like this but hate reading about the problems that begin to crop up as they certainly do.
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 07:05 AM   #12
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Believe what you will, but you have to take everything into consideration with the post as a whole.

We had people like Simon and Alister who were putting the preproduction models though their paces. There was no hint of a wobble. They shot high speed trains, traffic, etc.. and never reported any wobble. Adam Wilt made no mention of any wobble is his write up using the preproduction model. (Though I am sure we all remember him mentioning the lens problem).

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...ghlight=wobble

Here is the first mention here of wobble. Now mind you the people I mentioned before were actually using the camera and could not find a wobble, but yet here is someone who found a wobble looking at the screen while it was sitting on a tripod at a trade show. Seems strange how that could be?

Once you understand that the person who started the "wobble" story is connected with another forum the strange thing about that clears up pretty quick. As fair and balanced as Chris tries to keep this place, that one is anything but. One wrote the story and another went all around the internet posting it. You didn't find it funny that the article we mentioned before made no mention of the fact that these are completely new chips in the EX?

Find me someone who is using the camera who has a complaint about or is reporting trouble with wobble. I haven't talked to anyone who is reporting it nor have I seen anyone "USING" the camera who has reported it. All of the talk of wobble I can find goes back to people who make their living giving support and advice for another companies product.

Personally I don't care what is written on the side of the camera, Sony, Panasonic or Fisher Price. I just want it to work. I can tell you the reason I haven't bought a 330 or 350 is the 1/2" chips. Not because I think there is a problem with them but I have concerns over the glass. Call me old school but I have always purchased really good glass then just put it on the front of the newest camera I bought. I can't wrap my head around buying glass optimized for a 1/2" sensor. What do I do when I switch to a camera with a 2/3" sensor? I have to buy new glass with it and start over? Heck if Pannasonic would have taken the HDX900, dropped the tape deck, fit the body for P2 cards, then reflected the lose of the tape transport in the price, I would have bought 2. Instead we got the 500 which I don't even want to talk about.

I am hoping the EX will be a camera I can have here to do much of what I do and rent the rest as needed. If it is not, no sweat I'll just keep renting. So no I don't have one. You would be hard pressed to get me to preorder anything that cost over 20 bucks. i am too old to be a guinea pig.

K
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 08:14 AM   #13
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This turned out to be an interesting thread! My intention was to hear reports on rolling shutter issues but instead it seems to have stirred up some hot emotions regarding the alleged bashing of CMOS in video in general.

Anyway - not knowing much about wobble - but wouldn't i potentially show up in the shots that Sony have been using to demo the camera where they put it inside a jet plane on an air show? That sounds to me like the worst possible scenario for camera susceptible to wobble. Or am I misunderstanding the nature of the phenomena?
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 10:39 AM   #14
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I have some real-world EX1 footage shot this weekend including hand-held and fast pan shots which I can share if Chris can offer some server space for that. Can most people play the MP4 files without conversion, or do I need to render out to something else like WMVHD?
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Old December 2nd, 2007, 11:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola Christoffersson View Post
Anyway - not knowing much about wobble - but wouldn't i potentially show up in the shots that Sony have been using to demo the camera where they put it inside a jet plane on an air show? That sounds to me like the worst possible scenario for camera susceptible to wobble. Or am I misunderstanding the nature of the phenomena?

LOL.... 10Gs... yes it would, spinning circles!
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