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Sony XDCAM EX Pro Handhelds
Sony PMW-300, PXW-X200, PXW-X180 (back to EX3 & EX1) recording to SxS flash memory.


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Old May 17th, 2008, 05:58 AM   #46
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If you don't like judder, shoot 60i or 60p. Judder is unavoidable at low framerates. You get to choose where it happens: FG or BG. Better BG.
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Old May 17th, 2008, 06:21 AM   #47
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The judder I'm seeing IS at 60P.
Steve
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Old May 17th, 2008, 08:42 AM   #48
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60P will have judder at higher pan speeds, of course more than twice as less at the same pan speed when sampled at 24P.
If the EX1 had a problem not actually accomadating actual frame rate, believe me, you would of heard about it a LONG time ago.

We have torn apart the EX1 issues from its launch and have been VERY vocal about it here, that's for sure. ;)
I guess it's possible you have a problem with your camera, but without see any footage of your issue, it's impossible to tell.
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Old May 17th, 2008, 08:53 AM   #49
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Serena can you post examples? Ideally something I can download so there won't be any lag by viewing it online.
Thanks,
Steve
I'll see what I can do.
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Old May 17th, 2008, 09:26 AM   #50
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OK, just tried for the first time 50i, and it's smooth with no jitter. Switch back to 25P and it's jittery. Now I know that with progressive you'll get blur (I've shots for years on Varicam and Sony 750), but never seen it like this before. Any further ideas?
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Old May 17th, 2008, 10:02 AM   #51
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OK again, I've just put the card into my Macbook Pro, and even on 50i there is some jitter.
What would be nice is to have access to a Z7 too, so I could shoot same pan in 25P on both cams and see if they are different in terms of motion. Anyone got access to these two at the moment, might be able to get hold of one here, but not at the moment.
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Old May 17th, 2008, 10:26 AM   #52
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Further update: I've played back the 50i clip on TV screen and it looks fine, seems that even my Macbook Pro may not have enough power to run 1080 EX files smoothly?
I definitely still see an issue here though. I will at some point try to get hold of a Canon XL/JVC200/Z7 so I can shoot side by side comparisons and get them into a suite so I convert and maybe post - not sure when though. Certainly before I buy an EX3 though!
Steve
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Old May 18th, 2008, 04:11 AM   #53
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I know that exceptions are made if the story justifies it, but the BBC normally only accepts Long GOP HD with a minimum of 50Mb/s data stream if the footage is to be used for HD broadcast.
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Old May 18th, 2008, 04:27 AM   #54
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Steve, I know that exceptions are made if the story justifies it, but the BBC normally only accepts Long GOP HD with a minimum of 50Mb/s data stream if the footage is to be used for HD broadcast.
The GOP or bitrate will make no difference to the rolling shutter problem. It's a function of how the CMOS imager works. Pretty much the same for all CMOS cameras including ones that cost a lot more than the EX1
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Old May 18th, 2008, 04:52 AM   #55
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I fully agree that the 'stutter' is an ugly artifact. Using my Z1 in the progressive mode does seem to produce a similar effect on the viewfinder. BUT to a lesser effect on a tv monitor. I wonder just how much the design of the monitor, possibly its scaling technique, effects what we are seeing and why some see this artifact less of a problem than others. Most computer monitors have a frame refresh rate of not less than 60Hz and in PAL land we are dealing with 50Hz. I must try the EX1 to see how it compares.

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Old May 18th, 2008, 05:01 AM   #56
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I think different people just have different requirements, and what is acceptable to one person or one situation is no good for another. It does seem a bit odd though that 2 people can look at the same footage and one sees unnacceptable motion effects and the other says that it looks fine.
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Old May 18th, 2008, 07:13 AM   #57
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I am just getting used to my EX1 and making it work for a living. I thought we had got over the fact that this is a 4K camera not a 34K one + lenses. I am very picky coming from a broadcast background and to me the EX1 excels in so many areas but it can't do everything. I am happily intercutting shots with HDCAM material and it is in many cases impossible to see the difference, when graded viewers would most decidedly never spot the various picture sources. I am sure even the BBC will use the EX1 (or EX3) when it suits them.

I think the panning issue is interesting I was taught when training as a cameraman to pan at half the speed you think is right. With LCD viewing it should be half of that! Thats progress.
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Old May 18th, 2008, 07:16 AM   #58
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Problem when you're following moving animals is that they set the panning speed!
BBC are using EX1 alredy for certain things.
Steve
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Old May 18th, 2008, 10:42 AM   #59
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Panning speed is a VERY old subject with both film and video.
Based on frame rate and shutter speed, you can't expect the impossible tracking high speed motion such as a bird flight without motion judder and/or blur depending on shutter speed and exposure. Of course it clear depends on how fast an object moves across the imager during each frame.

The EX1 with batteries, reader and memory cards total close to $10,000 USD. The majority of us all have several video cameras and have been doing this a long time.

If your problem is with the CMOS design and rolling shutter artifacts such as skew, partial exposures (camera flash), and wobble, these CMOS rolling shutter artifacts have been discussed ad nauseam.

I realize the comparison has been brought up many times, but the RED ONE ($30K > $50K USD including needed accesories) which is used by top pros such as Director Steven Soderbergh, also suffers the same CMOS Rolling shutter issues. These are not judder artifacts..

If anything, if you're tracking fast objects, you should worry more about rolling shutter skew. But depending on shutter speed, motion blur might hide most of it.

Simple solution- If you're not happy with the EX1, don't buy it. ;)
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Old May 18th, 2008, 11:04 AM   #60
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. It obviously is skew that I've been seeing, just didn't know the right terminology for it. The RED camera has it too, though seemingly it's not so bad as the EX1. I've used the Phantom HD a fair bit which also has a rolling shutter, but it doesn't seem to me to exhibit skew at all (though this is a £100,000 camera!)
I'm used to following birds in flight at 720/60P on Varicam/HPX2100 and know what it should look like, didn't see that on the EX1, it has this skew which makes the background jittery/wobbly/whatever you want to call it, but whatever it is it's not acceptable for me and wouldn't be for my clients I'm sure.
I wouldn't mind buying a relatively cheap camera like the EX3 mostly just for personal use, as I don't want to invest £50,000 or so on HPX2100 + HJ40 or similar set-ups, primarily for the reason that a lot of the productions I work on already have their own kit and wouldn't hire mine in so it wouldn't pay for itself. I was hoping the EX3 might fit the bill, but it doesn't. The image quality apart from the motion though I think is first rate.
Steve
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