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Sony XDCAM PXW-FS7 / FS5
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Old December 27th, 2015, 04:46 PM   #46
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Just did extensive testing on the FS5 trying to reproduce the problems some are seeing.

Here is a long boring video but if you are investigating this you may want to watch. You can download the original UHD file loaded to Vimeo but that is not the same as original it is compressed about ten fold. Contact me directly if you want the direct out of camera file or the simultaneously recorded Odyssey O7Q+ file I will provide those if you like.

This is only the internal UHD file, frankly I see almost no difference in the ProRes version from the 07Q+.

The profile I used is a new one I made, partly because I am having some issues with FCPX clipping above 100ire. So I used CINE2 in this test, I do state in the video it is CINE1 and that is wrong. Though CINE one is very similar it allows up to 109ire.

Anyway this shows iso 800,1600 and 3200 with some custom settings in my PP3

These settings are:
Gamma CINE2
Black Gamma: Middle -4
Sat: +4
Color: Cinema
Detail: -7

Everything else standard PP3 settings.

The interesting thing is the Odyssey file is the same on the scopes and noise vise there is very little difference. If you want to see the O7Q+ file contact me, the vimeo compression will delete any difference.

I am viewing this both on a TOL iMac and an Eval Monitor, not a TV the Eval monitor is a professional piece of equipment and it shows a very true picture and the video is fed by a SDI out from my UltraStudio for Thunderbolt.

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Old December 28th, 2015, 01:45 PM   #47
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

I downloaded this video and didn't notice anything strange around edges when viewing on a 1080 monitor.

However, when I did a zoom/crop and looked at it with a 1:1 pixel view. I DID then notice some of this odd "splotchy" edging.

I really can't say for sure, but could this be a result of some kind of line skipping at the sensor read-out stage? I could be way off but I don't feel like is a compression problem at all. Could it be a strange, improper RGB de-Bayering problem?

Weird. I have never seen this on my A7s-II, RX10-II or X70. Not even at 400% zoom/crop.

What is the FS5 doing that it's cousins are not?

EDIT - I have been looking at this sample a little closer and have noticed that the artifacts seem to occur stronger on horizontal lines much more than vertical lines. I'm uploading a zoomed in clip from your file at 1/4 speed.

What shutter speed did you use for this? Was it 1/30 second? It seems that the shutter speed and motion blur are helping to cover this artifact a bit. Can you try another shot at a very high shutter speed? I think if you take it above 1/200 or something like that, it will make these ugly edges pop right out in a slow motion inspection.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B60...ew?usp=sharing

Check the slow motion video above. again, a faster shutter speed will reveal more.

CT

Last edited by Cliff Totten; December 28th, 2015 at 10:18 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2015, 09:10 AM   #48
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

It doesn't have anything to do with line skipping or de-bayering. It has to do with a mis-tuned noise reduction algorithm, which is hard coded to one of the onboard ASICs.

Bayer artifacts and line skipping tend to show the "rainbow effect" but the examples I've seen (primarily Alex's) show less rainbow effects on hard edges and more "ghosting" and loss of detail, more prominent with a poorly tuned noise reduction algorithm.

Also, protip, turn off "Smart Resampling" in Sony Vegas when you slow motion a clip. That eliminates the blur.
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Old December 30th, 2015, 10:31 AM   #49
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Thanks for the tip in Vegas. I had completely forgotten about that! ;-)

Do you believe that the code that is hard programmed into these ASICs chips have no ability to be adjusted at all? I mean, there is no code that Sony placed there that says:

"Apply this ASICs FIXED noise reduction pattern or calculation at a strength of X or Y",...lets say 1-10 variable amounts.

Forcing all the video through a completely fixed and hardware locked circuit path would be a very cheesy way of doing it. I have to believe (hope) that there has to be some kind hardware programmed code that allows for some minimal degree of noise reduction variability. (like "color saturation", "shapness" or "contrast" 1 thru 100)

I can see the noise pattern characteristic being permanently "baked" in the chip. If Sony cant change the noise pattern, couldn't they at least "ramp-down" how much of that reduction algorithm is actually applied in final processing? (and possibly reducing the problem?)

That Tesla500 channel is awesome. Really sweet stuff there.

Have you been able to see the inside of the FS5 yet? Or, have you been able to identify the chips the FS5 uses from technical documents?

I really hope we all can shed a larger spotlight on this in the weeks to come.

I might be holding off on my FS5 purchase after all! :-(

CT

Edit: The A7S-II got a firmware update this month. One of the Sony stated fixes was "image quality improvements". I did a few short (original firmware) recordings with the lens cap on to record all black and different ISO settings. I then upgraded to the new firmware and did the same recordings with the lens cap on. I DID notice some slight noise changes between the firmware versions. When I heavily stretched the contrast in both blacks upward, I saw that the original firmware had very faint "horizontal" noise "lines" while the pattern with the new one was more "dot and spot" looking.

Could they have modified the noise reduction process between the two firmware?

Last edited by Cliff Totten; December 30th, 2015 at 06:21 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2015, 07:22 PM   #50
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

I just did some testing with my fs5 on a large tv and I found three gammas that look excellent in 4K. Rec709 800%, slog2 and slog 3. In my opinion this will cover most any shooting situation with these. They looked completely usable to about 6400 and pretty decent even up to 10,000. The other gammas, the blocky mess on some edges is very apparent, but completely gone on the three mentioned above. Worth taking a look for yourselves, but I feel much better knowing there is a gamma outside of slog that looks great at 4K.
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Old December 30th, 2015, 07:42 PM   #51
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Can you upload some short samples to a Google Drive or Dropbox?

So your camera DOES show these blocky eges in other standard Rec709 settings?

SLOG and Rec709 800% are great for grading. However, there are times when you want to give out a "baked in" finished look.

So it seems the FS5 is stuck in UHD SLOG and Rec709 800% ??

We gotta get more samples and proof to Sony ASAP.

Thanks!
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Old December 30th, 2015, 08:02 PM   #52
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Yeah it shows the nasty edges at 3200 and above on other gammas. Below 3200 and it completely goes away. I think you could get a pretty good look with 709 800% and adjusting the profile if you wanted the baked in look. I actually prefer 800% over the standard 709 gamma
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Old December 30th, 2015, 08:12 PM   #53
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Wow, uggg,...well? I guess maybe we can add your FS5 to the list of problem cameras.

Have you contacted Sony about it yet?

I am really hoping that this issue gets reported and makes its way up the Sony tree and up to Japan. If it doesn't exist in SLOG or Rec709 800% than maybe there is hope that they can correct it in standard Rec709 gamma?

FS5 owners need to also be very aware of this problem too. It sucks to see everything fine on your small camera monitor only to get shocked when you see it in your NLE at home.

Not good!
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Old December 30th, 2015, 08:44 PM   #54
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

As long as you understand the camera and its limitations it's an awesome camera.
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Old December 30th, 2015, 10:07 PM   #55
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

True....

But having a limitation of not being able to record standard Rec709 without horizontal edge artifacts, something that even my cell phone can do properly,...is a very embarrassing problem for a $5,500+ pro camera.

On the FS5, does Rec709 800% force a minimum ISO? My AS7-II forces it at 1600 ISO. (Same as SLOG)

Ouch!....

Last edited by Cliff Totten; December 30th, 2015 at 11:18 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2015, 11:58 PM   #56
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Edit: The A7S-II got a firmware update this month. One of the Sony stated fixes was "image quality improvements". I did a few short (original firmware) recordings with the lens cap on to record all black and different ISO settings. I then upgraded to the new firmware and did the same recordings with the lens cap on. I DID notice some slight noise changes between the firmware versions. When I heavily stretched the contrast in both blacks upward, I saw that the original firmware had very faint "horizontal" noise "lines" while the pattern with the new one was more "dot and spot" looking.

Could they have modified the noise reduction process between the two firmware?
It's possible they tuned some of the random noise reduction to a lower level. Yes, you can turn down the amount/intensity of the different noise reduction types with firmware, but the method/algorithm is baked into the chip. I suspect Sony turned down some noise reduction features that were too strong to begin with on the A7s II. The intensity of the noise reduction is way lower in S-Log mode even on the FS5. It's not off, cause some things like fixed pattern noise reduction need it to remain on. You still have to keep in mind the different imagers and I suspect they cranked up some of the noise reduction at standard gammas to hide problems with the mismatching algorithms, hiding stuff better at the cost of introducing other artifacts.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 12:49 AM   #57
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Wow Jack.....if what you are saying about the FS5 is true, Sony has one Hell of a defect on it's hands here with a camera that they really want's to sell allot of in 2016.

If Sony cant repair this problem what are they going to do? Can they try to sweep this under the rug and pretend it's not happening? More and more problem samples will come out and complaints are sure to grow and grow.

I'm definitely looking for more FS5 owners out there to shoot more straight line tests with motion.

Better yet, if somebody can shoot a resolution chart and "tap" or "wiggle" the camera and post it in UHD, that would be awesome.

This is depressing......
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Old December 31st, 2015, 01:22 AM   #58
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Sorry I am new to the FS5's REC.709 800% terminology here. What does it mean that makes it different from the usual REC.709? I'm planning on getting an FS5 myself. Thanks.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 03:43 AM   #59
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
If Sony cant repair this problem what are they going to do?
Newsshooter has reported the problem to Sony and they claim Sony is looking into it and I"m sure newsshooter is not the only source that has reported the problem, so until Sony decides to fix it with a firmware upgrade it is what it is, you either buy the camera and work around it's limitations and wait until it maybe will get fixed, or it might not get fixed and if that would bother you then get a fs7.
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Old December 31st, 2015, 07:14 AM   #60
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Re: FS5 - Macro blocking codec issue in 4k??

Wouldnt proving that the camera can record beautiful images on three gammas prove its not a hardware issue. Gammas are a software change, so it's clearly not the chip.
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