Canon 7D low light wildlife clip - first impression

Andrew Davies · October 19th, 2009, 08:05 AM

Rolling shutter IS a problem. I know two professionals who have found this when using the EX3. An agency I submit to will not accept Canon 5D MKII because of this.

Andy

Jonathan Betz · October 19th, 2009, 08:20 AM

In what instances would rolling shutter be a problem for wildlife filming? From what I have seen, rolling shutter problems occur mostly during fast pans and when capturing camera flashes. Realistically, would pans during wildlife capture, for instance following birds in flight, foxes running, etc., cause jellocam? Flashes of light are obviously less of a problem, unless you are filming lightning flashes.

What problems would be most limiting in a wildlife setting?

Andrew Davies · October 19th, 2009, 03:24 PM

Over to you Steve ...

Steve Phillipps · October 19th, 2009, 03:31 PM

I guess you mean me Andrew!
In my limited use of EX1 and EX3 I noticed "skew" when panning with moving animals, notably flying birds, where the background seems to lag behind the subject!
So from what I've seen the problem with rolling shutter is whenever your subjects move, and wildlife does tend to do that! From what I've heard the DSLRs are in a totally different league re skew to the the EX cameras, many leagues worse.
But, you can only try it yourself and see, as I know many people don't see the problems I do.
Ask yourself though, why aren't the BBC NHU using EX cameras or 7Ds on their raft of mega series? The cameras are cheaper and smaller, so why not, unless there were issues?
Steve

Don Miller · October 20th, 2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Davies-Patrick

..............

To give you an example of a DSLR filming wildlife in extreme-low-light levels where most camcorders would struggle or give very grainy images, in this 'Summer Variations' video the digital FX sensor of the D3s provides great footage considering the conditions.
Obviously this is filmed at the extremes (pushed to 12,800 ISO instead of normal 200 ISO when used in average light), so with more light the D3 provides extremely clean footage and stills. The D7 and D5 Mark II also provide really nice clean footage at low to meadium ISO and any 'jello' affect is easily masked in most outdoors nature subjects.

YouTube - Vincent Munier - Summer Variations - Nikon D3s

.....................

Talented filmmaker
Nice video , but a notch below Canon in IQ. It's also 720p.
The new Canon 1D4 is the direct competitor to the Nikon D3s, and appears to beat it easily as a video camera. It appears to shoot good video at light levels that are at the extreme of human vision. Interesting times for nature shooters.
Canon's got the good mojo going. But we know how that changes.

Don Miller · October 20th, 2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

I guess you mean me Andrew!
In my limited use of EX1 and EX3 I noticed "skew" when panning with moving animals, notably flying birds, where the background seems to lag behind the subject!
So from what I've seen the problem with rolling shutter is whenever your subjects move, and wildlife does tend to do that! From what I've heard the DSLRs are in a totally different league re skew to the the EX cameras, many leagues worse.
But, you can only try it yourself and see, as I know many people don't see the problems I do.
Ask yourself though, why aren't the BBC NHU using EX cameras or 7Ds on their raft of mega series? The cam.eras are cheaper and smaller, so why not, unless there were issues?
Steve

The skew is worse, but not greatly worse IMO. The Sonys do many nice things the 7D doesn't. But the 7D is a $1700 camera. And a legally blind person will pick the 7D image as superior to the EX1/3.

We are apparently in a transition to a larger single CMOS sensors. But a lot of characteristics of these cameras need to get better.

Tony Davies-Patrick · October 20th, 2009, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Miller

Talented filmmaker
Nice video , but a notch below Canon in IQ. It's also 720p.
The new Canon 1D4 is the direct competitor to the Nikon D3s, and appears to beat it easily as a video camera. It appears to shoot good video at light levels that are at the extreme of human vision. Interesting times for nature shooters.
Canon's got the good mojo going. But we know how that changes.

Yes, I'm going to look very closely at the D3s & 1D IV this coming winter, and decide whether to keep one of them for my work or wait for the D4. It is indeed an interesting time for both stills & video at the moment.

Steve Phillipps · October 20th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Interesting yes, but to my knowledge there's very little interest in the broadcast industry in these new DSLRs. I've certainly not heard anyone in the Beeb re-thinking their ideas for upcoming series based on these new cams.
Steve

Kevin Shaw · October 20th, 2009, 01:22 PM

Nice footage but the image looks a tiny bit soft to me, which I'm thinking could be due to the teleconverter. Suggest trying similar shots with and without the converter and cropping in post as needed to see whether you can improve on the quality any. (Converter may be needed to get the shot, but test alternatives.)

Ofer Levy · October 20th, 2009, 05:57 PM

I am sure you are right Steve as based on my short experience with the 7D it won't work well for wildlife. At least not anywhere as good as the EX3.
However, for very low light situations - I don't think there is any alternative right now.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

On a different note - I am very excited about the new Sony PMW 350 with the 2/3 sensors!!
I bet it will be awesome to have it as a main camera and keep the EX3 as a backup. (Now I just have to figure out how to make the 20 grand it costs....(-: )

Cheers,

Ofer
Ofer Levy Photography

Jonathan Betz · October 20th, 2009, 07:42 PM

It seems pretty clear at this point: DSLRs still have too many limitations to compete effectively with camcorders. I'm sure the time will come, but we're not there yet.

Steve Phillipps · October 21st, 2009, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ofer Levy

On a different note - I am very excited about the new Sony PMW 350 with the 2/3 sensors!!
I bet it will be awesome to have it as a main camera and keep the EX3 as a backup. (Now I just have to figure out how to make the 20 grand it costs....(-: )

Cheers,

Ofer
Ofer Levy Photography

I'm really not so sure about that. I would have thought that unless the picture quality is sensationally different you'll lose a couple of benefits for wildlife shooting that the EX3 has over other cameras, especially full-size ones like the Varicam, small size and weight (including accessories like batteries and tripods needed), and extra magnification due to smaller sensor. If the only thing you'll gain is extra low light sensitivity then I'd sacrifice that for the other benefits.
It could be though that the apparent lack of noise in the picture will mean that the image [I]is[I] a lot better and so make it worthwhile.
Interesting that it has a viewfinder socket for pro finders too, as even though the EX3 viewfinder is good, it's still not quite upto a proper large VF, so at least you've got the option.
Steve

Ofer Levy · October 21st, 2009, 05:53 AM

Hi Steve, I am very pleased to hear this from you. I LOVE the EX3 and since I always use it coupled with the Flash XDR the image quality is simply mind blowing – much better than what the camera does without the Flash XDR. There is absolutely no noise especially since I only shoot with gain set to -3.

I guess the EX3+Flash XDR for daily work and the 7D for night/low light work is the way to go for me.
Look how easily you just saved me 20 grand....(-:
Thanks Steve,
Cheers,
Ofer

Steve Phillipps · October 21st, 2009, 02:02 PM

I think for non-wildlife shooters though the 350 looks really good. It shows that Sony are listening as it's pretty much what a lot of folks have been asking for.
Steve

October 19th, 2009, 08:20 AM	#17
Jonathan Betz Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Washington DC Posts: 59	In what instances would rolling shutter be a problem for wildlife filming? From what I have seen, rolling shutter problems occur mostly during fast pans and when capturing camera flashes. Realistically, would pans during wildlife capture, for instance following birds in flight, foxes running, etc., cause jellocam? Flashes of light are obviously less of a problem, unless you are filming lightning flashes. What problems would be most limiting in a wildlife setting? __________________ Jon Betz www.jonbetzfilms.com

October 20th, 2009, 07:42 PM	#26
Jonathan Betz Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Washington DC Posts: 59	It seems pretty clear at this point: DSLRs still have too many limitations to compete effectively with camcorders. I'm sure the time will come, but we're not there yet. __________________ Jon Betz www.jonbetzfilms.com

October 19th, 2009, 08:05 AM	#16
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	Rolling shutter IS a problem. I know two professionals who have found this when using the EX3. An agency I submit to will not accept Canon 5D MKII because of this. Andy

October 19th, 2009, 03:24 PM	#18
Andrew Davies Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 104	Over to you Steve ...

October 19th, 2009, 03:31 PM	#19
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	I guess you mean me Andrew! In my limited use of EX1 and EX3 I noticed "skew" when panning with moving animals, notably flying birds, where the background seems to lag behind the subject! So from what I've seen the problem with rolling shutter is whenever your subjects move, and wildlife does tend to do that! From what I've heard the DSLRs are in a totally different league re skew to the the EX cameras, many leagues worse. But, you can only try it yourself and see, as I know many people don't see the problems I do. Ask yourself though, why aren't the BBC NHU using EX cameras or 7Ds on their raft of mega series? The cameras are cheaper and smaller, so why not, unless there were issues? Steve

October 20th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#23
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Interesting yes, but to my knowledge there's very little interest in the broadcast industry in these new DSLRs. I've certainly not heard anyone in the Beeb re-thinking their ideas for upcoming series based on these new cams. Steve

October 20th, 2009, 01:22 PM	#24
Kevin Shaw Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 2,488	Nice footage but the image looks a tiny bit soft to me, which I'm thinking could be due to the teleconverter. Suggest trying similar shots with and without the converter and cropping in post as needed to see whether you can improve on the quality any. (Converter may be needed to get the shot, but test alternatives.)

October 20th, 2009, 05:57 PM	#25
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	I am sure you are right Steve as based on my short experience with the 7D it won't work well for wildlife. At least not anywhere as good as the EX3. However, for very low light situations - I don't think there is any alternative right now. Please correct me if I am wrong. On a different note - I am very excited about the new Sony PMW 350 with the 2/3 sensors!! I bet it will be awesome to have it as a main camera and keep the EX3 as a backup. (Now I just have to figure out how to make the 20 grand it costs....(-: ) Cheers, Ofer Ofer Levy Photography

October 21st, 2009, 05:53 AM	#28
Ofer Levy Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney-Australia Posts: 443	Hi Steve, I am very pleased to hear this from you. I LOVE the EX3 and since I always use it coupled with the Flash XDR the image quality is simply mind blowing – much better than what the camera does without the Flash XDR. There is absolutely no noise especially since I only shoot with gain set to -3. I guess the EX3+Flash XDR for daily work and the 7D for night/low light work is the way to go for me. Look how easily you just saved me 20 grand....(-: Thanks Steve, Cheers, Ofer

October 21st, 2009, 02:02 PM	#29
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	I think for non-wildlife shooters though the 350 looks really good. It shows that Sony are listening as it's pretty much what a lot of folks have been asking for. Steve