Question for the Long Form Community...

Mike Sims · November 10th, 2009, 02:29 PM

Personally, I think we should stick with the 180MB limit that we’ve known about for a year, but you’re the boss. Functionally, I can make a substantially better looking file with a 250 MB limit but adding 20 MB going from 180 to 200 doesn’t add enough to make any appreciable difference. I can live with whatever you decide.

Meryem Ersoz · November 10th, 2009, 02:53 PM

I upped it a bit based on the feedback in the other thread. Seems like 180mb was too much of a stretch. And I made that 180mb decision at the beginning of the year, before anyone, myself included, had ever compressed a file of this size for the web. I've made lots of longer than 22 minute videos by now...just never tried to make a web version...

...something in the water today...no one's happy with anything, least of all me!

let's make it 250mb then, will that please anyone? Bueller?

Mike Sims · November 10th, 2009, 03:43 PM

Sorry. I didn’t mean to imply that I’m unhappy at all. I’m not. The first thing I did when I read the 180MB rule last year was compress one hour of unedited video to see if I could do it. I could, so I’ve been OK with that limit all along. Just to be clear:

I am very happy and quite pleased with the new 250MB limit!
Thank-you for putting up with us irascible videomakers, Meryem!
(It is now safe to drink the water.)

Meryem Ersoz · November 10th, 2009, 06:07 PM

i'm kinda having one of those days when everything feels like walking through quicksand in lead boots...sorry, peeps...

Catherine Russell · November 11th, 2009, 11:13 AM

For what it is worth:

Meryem is at the helm of this forum and what she decides, goes. If the long form final file size has been decided to be 250 mb, then that is what I am attempting to do.

But just food for thought. If the short form 3 minute submissions are allotted a 60 mb file size, then linearly thinking, a 30 minute submission should realistically be allotted a 600 mb file size.

The 180 mb file size allotted for the works in progress submissions was based on the rule of thumb that these files would be 5 minutes of material. This would suggest that a 30 minute film would be allotted over 1 GB in file size.

Please know that I am neither whining nor complaining. I'm just a bit surprised. I currently have a 33 minute 428 x 240 final submission that after lots of work, have gotten it to 494 mb. I am currently working with technical support at Sorenson Media to help me with this. There seems to be a general consensus that 250 mb for a full-length film is very strict.

I will work at this until I have something to submit that will meet the requirements. I'm just a little disheartened that what that file might be is something sub-par to its potential. Ouch! After a full year, it comes to this.

Mike, I don't know what you are using, but you are a super jock to squeeze 60 minutes of HD film into less than 180 mb.

I nope I'm not in trouble for speaking out like this! I'll keep after it!

Cat

Chris Swanberg · November 11th, 2009, 12:11 PM

I would LOVE to see all the films in their FULL glory, as uncompressed as you want to make them (ok -within reason). To that end it might be great if someone volunteered to accept DVD's of each of the final contestant's film and put them together in a compilation to then send out to share with the participants.

Hey, since I'm suggesting I'd be willing to be that volunteer! (All of this assumes this is ok with everyone, especially Meryem since this is her contest.)

Chris S.

Meryem Ersoz · November 11th, 2009, 12:54 PM

I'm not taking any of this ill, Cat, in fact, I don't pretend to know what is a reasonable file size, having never done this type of compression myself.

I'm just doing my best not to tax Chris' servers...with the number of people dropping out, (meaning more bandwidth for the ones remaining...), I'm almost tempted to set bit rate parameters, audio parameters, etc., instead of file sizes, so that everyone is of equal quality, and damn the torpedoes, make it as big as it needs to be...setting quality parameters instead of size. this will require a bit of honor system...

what do y'all think of that idea?

Meryem Ersoz · November 11th, 2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Swanberg

I would LOVE to see all the films in their FULL glory, as uncompressed as you want to make them (ok -within reason). To that end it might be great if someone volunteered to accept DVD's of each of the final contestant's film and put them together in a compilation to then send out to share with the participants.

Hey, since I'm suggesting I'd be willing to be that volunteer! (All of this assumes this is ok with everyone, especially Meryem since this is her contest.)

Chris S.

it's a lovely suggestion - but you have no idea how hard this is, you'll be converting PAL, working with all of these different formats, etc...believe me, I have done this on a single DVD, with multiple UWOL files, and it is a huge time suck, more than you think...

not saying i'm against it, mind you, just telling you about the parts that you are not thinking about, you'll need files uploaded via ftp, they will be absolutely huge, and it will take many hours just to acquire them, and sometimes data can be lost in the transfer.

et cetera....

Catherine Russell · November 11th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Thank you Chris, that sounds like a lot of work you are offering to do.

May I offer up one more thought concerning the long form file size? It was only a few days ago that this was yet to be determined with no hard and fast rules to operate by, so I would like to submit one more idea to think about.

The finals are to be within the range of 20 min - 90 min. Should the file size limits be on a graduated scale then since the upper limit is over 4 times the minimum time requirement? If there is one file size requirement, how much more difficult it would be if one entry was actually 90 min when others were at the 20 min requirement.

If the standard has been 60 mb for a 3 minute entry, then should the long form requirements be based on this standard multiplied by every 3 minutes of material? For example, by this rule of thumb a 20 minute entry would have a 400 mb size limit, a 30 min entry would have a 600 mb size limit and a 90 min entry would have a 1800 mb size limit.

This seems fair to me and results in a common standard for both short and long form. From what people have been suggesting, the long form finals this year will average around 30 minutes with at least one closer to 20 minutes and others closer to 40 minutes. Can the band width handle 9 or so entries averaging 500 - 600 mb?

Thank you for considering this option.

Cat

Mike Sims · November 11th, 2009, 02:59 PM

I didn’t mean to be so insensitive to the needs of HD. Of course my SD files are much smaller to begin with. I’m sorry y’all are having compression problems. Have you tried Mike Beckett’s suggestion? First use your NLE to output a master file with smaller frame dimensions and then use the compression software to compress that. Best of luck.

See post #11:
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/uwol-cha...on-issues.html

Chris Swanberg · November 11th, 2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

it's a lovely suggestion - but you have no idea how hard this is, you'll be converting PAL, working with all of these different formats, etc...believe me, I have done this on a single DVD, with multiple UWOL files, and it is a huge time suck, more than you think...

not saying i'm against it, mind you, just telling you about the parts that you are not thinking about, you'll need files uploaded via ftp, they will be absolutely huge, and it will take many hours just to acquire them, and sometimes data can be lost in the transfer.

et cetera....

Hmmm... maybe I should just offer to accept DVD's via mail and copy and disseminate them to the players? Thanks for the heads-up Meryem, I guess I was once again looking in the shallow end of the pool not realizing it was 10x as deep as it looked.

Chris

Catherine Russell · November 11th, 2009, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meryem Ersoz

I'm almost tempted to set bit rate parameters, audio parameters, etc., instead of file sizes, so that everyone is of equal quality, and damn the torpedoes, make it as big as it needs to be...setting quality parameters instead of size. this will require a bit of honor system...

what do y'all think of that idea?

Oh PLEASE! Let us seriously dialog about this! I think that is an awesome idea, if Chris can handle the load. The bottom line for me is my final HD render of a 33 minute video is 45 Gigs and that was already with the sorenson 3 compression. Trimming that down to 460 mb is as far as I can take it I think. Even going lower on bit rates doesn't make the file any smaller. If the 250 mb restriction stands, I might be out of luck... on a technicality not effort. Setting restrictions on bit rates and audio and not size would be such a relief!

Cat

Bob Safay · November 12th, 2009, 05:51 PM

Well, I just did a test render of my almost Final entry. I renderd my SD 29 min. 30 sec. Galapagos video in MPEG-4, with a frame size of 428 x 240, and it came in at 134 mb. YES. All dressed-up and ready to go to the dance.

I agree with Cat. If she can't get HD compression down she should be able to send a DVD in. I would hate to see her get disqualified because of a compression problem. Bob

Catherine Russell · November 12th, 2009, 06:59 PM

Sweet! Way to go Bob! Looks like you and Mike have crossed the finished line! Nicely done! As for me, I'm sitting here 10 feet from the goal line waiting to know what to do.

All the best!

Cat

Mike Sims · November 12th, 2009, 08:22 PM

Catherine- Did you see my post #25 above? I really think that may solve your problem. Although I have uploaded a file I haven’t finished yet. It is more insurance of getting something in while I try to deal with a few problems (like getting the URL of the UWOL Challenge website wrong in the credits!- sheesh). I’m trying to fix the problems and then upload a corrected file before the deadline. Fingers crossed that we can all make this work…

November 10th, 2009, 02:29 PM	#16
Mike Sims Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 880	Personally, I think we should stick with the 180MB limit that we’ve known about for a year, but you’re the boss. Functionally, I can make a substantially better looking file with a 250 MB limit but adding 20 MB going from 180 to 200 doesn’t add enough to make any appreciable difference. I can live with whatever you decide.

November 10th, 2009, 02:53 PM	#17
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	I upped it a bit based on the feedback in the other thread. Seems like 180mb was too much of a stretch. And I made that 180mb decision at the beginning of the year, before anyone, myself included, had ever compressed a file of this size for the web. I've made lots of longer than 22 minute videos by now...just never tried to make a web version... ...something in the water today...no one's happy with anything, least of all me! let's make it 250mb then, will that please anyone? Bueller?

November 10th, 2009, 03:43 PM	#18
Mike Sims Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 880	Sorry. I didn’t mean to imply that I’m unhappy at all. I’m not. The first thing I did when I read the 180MB rule last year was compress one hour of unedited video to see if I could do it. I could, so I’ve been OK with that limit all along. Just to be clear: I am very happy and quite pleased with the new 250MB limit! Thank-you for putting up with us irascible videomakers, Meryem! (It is now safe to drink the water.)

November 10th, 2009, 06:07 PM	#19
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	i'm kinda having one of those days when everything feels like walking through quicksand in lead boots...sorry, peeps...

November 11th, 2009, 11:13 AM	#20
Catherine Russell Trustee Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lyons, Colorado Posts: 1,224	For what it is worth: Meryem is at the helm of this forum and what she decides, goes. If the long form final file size has been decided to be 250 mb, then that is what I am attempting to do. But just food for thought. If the short form 3 minute submissions are allotted a 60 mb file size, then linearly thinking, a 30 minute submission should realistically be allotted a 600 mb file size. The 180 mb file size allotted for the works in progress submissions was based on the rule of thumb that these files would be 5 minutes of material. This would suggest that a 30 minute film would be allotted over 1 GB in file size. Please know that I am neither whining nor complaining. I'm just a bit surprised. I currently have a 33 minute 428 x 240 final submission that after lots of work, have gotten it to 494 mb. I am currently working with technical support at Sorenson Media to help me with this. There seems to be a general consensus that 250 mb for a full-length film is very strict. I will work at this until I have something to submit that will meet the requirements. I'm just a little disheartened that what that file might be is something sub-par to its potential. Ouch! After a full year, it comes to this. Mike, I don't know what you are using, but you are a super jock to squeeze 60 minutes of HD film into less than 180 mb. I nope I'm not in trouble for speaking out like this! I'll keep after it! Cat

November 11th, 2009, 12:11 PM	#21
Chris Swanberg Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 904	I would LOVE to see all the films in their FULL glory, as uncompressed as you want to make them (ok -within reason). To that end it might be great if someone volunteered to accept DVD's of each of the final contestant's film and put them together in a compilation to then send out to share with the participants. Hey, since I'm suggesting I'd be willing to be that volunteer! (All of this assumes this is ok with everyone, especially Meryem since this is her contest.) Chris S.

November 11th, 2009, 12:54 PM	#22
Meryem Ersoz Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 3,015	I'm not taking any of this ill, Cat, in fact, I don't pretend to know what is a reasonable file size, having never done this type of compression myself. I'm just doing my best not to tax Chris' servers...with the number of people dropping out, (meaning more bandwidth for the ones remaining...), I'm almost tempted to set bit rate parameters, audio parameters, etc., instead of file sizes, so that everyone is of equal quality, and damn the torpedoes, make it as big as it needs to be...setting quality parameters instead of size. this will require a bit of honor system... what do y'all think of that idea?

November 11th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#24
Catherine Russell Trustee Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lyons, Colorado Posts: 1,224	Thank you Chris, that sounds like a lot of work you are offering to do. May I offer up one more thought concerning the long form file size? It was only a few days ago that this was yet to be determined with no hard and fast rules to operate by, so I would like to submit one more idea to think about. The finals are to be within the range of 20 min - 90 min. Should the file size limits be on a graduated scale then since the upper limit is over 4 times the minimum time requirement? If there is one file size requirement, how much more difficult it would be if one entry was actually 90 min when others were at the 20 min requirement. If the standard has been 60 mb for a 3 minute entry, then should the long form requirements be based on this standard multiplied by every 3 minutes of material? For example, by this rule of thumb a 20 minute entry would have a 400 mb size limit, a 30 min entry would have a 600 mb size limit and a 90 min entry would have a 1800 mb size limit. This seems fair to me and results in a common standard for both short and long form. From what people have been suggesting, the long form finals this year will average around 30 minutes with at least one closer to 20 minutes and others closer to 40 minutes. Can the band width handle 9 or so entries averaging 500 - 600 mb? Thank you for considering this option. Cat

November 11th, 2009, 02:59 PM	#25
Mike Sims Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 880	I didn’t mean to be so insensitive to the needs of HD. Of course my SD files are much smaller to begin with. I’m sorry y’all are having compression problems. Have you tried Mike Beckett’s suggestion? First use your NLE to output a master file with smaller frame dimensions and then use the compression software to compress that. Best of luck. See post #11: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/uwol-cha...on-issues.html

November 12th, 2009, 05:51 PM	#28
Bob Safay Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,557	Well, I just did a test render of my almost Final entry. I renderd my SD 29 min. 30 sec. Galapagos video in MPEG-4, with a frame size of 428 x 240, and it came in at 134 mb. YES. All dressed-up and ready to go to the dance. I agree with Cat. If she can't get HD compression down she should be able to send a DVD in. I would hate to see her get disqualified because of a compression problem. Bob

November 12th, 2009, 06:59 PM	#29
Catherine Russell Trustee Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Lyons, Colorado Posts: 1,224	Sweet! Way to go Bob! Looks like you and Mike have crossed the finished line! Nicely done! As for me, I'm sitting here 10 feet from the goal line waiting to know what to do. All the best! Cat

November 12th, 2009, 08:22 PM	#30
Mike Sims Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 880	Catherine- Did you see my post #25 above? I really think that may solve your problem. Although I have uploaded a file I haven’t finished yet. It is more insurance of getting something in while I try to deal with a few problems (like getting the URL of the UWOL Challenge website wrong in the credits!- sheesh). I’m trying to fix the problems and then upload a corrected file before the deadline. Fingers crossed that we can all make this work…