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Wedding / Event Videography Techniques
Shooting non-repeatable events: weddings, recitals, plays, performances...


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Old December 6th, 2004, 01:57 PM   #1
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What format are you guys shooting in?

frame rate: 24p or 30?

aspect: 4:3 or 16:9?

format: dv or hdv?

i am curious to see how many of your customers want film look, widescreen hd delivered on a dvd.

thanks.

john
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Old December 8th, 2004, 01:25 AM   #2
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Why to use 30P

30p (which is different from both 60i and 24p)

Used to always shoot in 24p because hey thats what film cameras do right? Well I've learned over time there are some bonuses you get from shooting 30p over 60i (These are only my feelings. Test and see what works best for your style).

Why I shoot 30p instead of 60i or 24p

1)Best compromise for Slo Mo. If you slow down 60i your watching interlaced frames play back slowly. These frames are only HALF of the resolution possible for the camera so this means your clips arent as sharp as they could be On the other hand 24p has the 2:3 pull down that needs to be removed. If you dont then once in awhile you will see an interlaced frame go by. Removing pull down can be somewhat of a pain when your using a lot of mixed elements in a project. Also when you slow down 24p it has a motion to it thats noticeably jerky. 60i is super smooth in slo mo and is the best if smoothness all you care about but if you want to have full resolution in footage that isnt noticeably jerky then 30P is the way to go. On a side note there is software out there that cleanly creates "in-between" frames - turning 30P into 60P on slomo play back. Full rez AND as smooth as 60i. Best of both worlds.

2)When shooting 35mm your dealing with the motion blur and frame rate just like if you shot in 24p mood. As a film operator you have to try and avoid certain pan speeds otherwise you get a very noticeable strobing effect to the motion. Not good. With 30P you still have the film look but is a little more forgiving on the pans and in wedding videography action doesnt always happen as expected.

3)30P can be thrown on a 60i timeline right next to footage from a good old 60i camera. Not that they will look the same though but at least you dont have to learn anything new or funky when it comes to your timeline and workflow.

Basically shooting 30P gives you a film look 95% like a 24p film look but without alot of the headaches. Play it at 100% speed and it looks like film. Play it at 50% and it still looks like film in slo motion. Cant say the same for 60i.

Again after trying it all, thats what works for me. Long time 60i shooters may find 24p and 30p footage to have unfamiliarly odd look. While film shooters will love it but might naturally go straight to 24p (like I first did) because thats the film camera standard but we are working in a video world and showing it on NTSC tvs NOT film projectors. Brides dont care about all this technical crap though but I can tell you one thing. 60i subconsciously makes the untrained viewer feel like your watching more of a documentary which is shoot on a video camera (a look that is similar to what they are used to from their home video camera) while 24p has a film look and is subconsciously associated with the Hollywood movies they rent at Blockbuster which are known for their high production value and story telling characteristics. The question is what do you want your customer to feel like they are watching. For me? 30p.
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Old December 8th, 2004, 08:32 AM   #3
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60i, 4:3, miniDV.

Anything less than 60i (ie 30p 24p) isn't condusive to good slow motion.
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Old December 8th, 2004, 10:40 AM   #4
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60i, 4:3, miniDV. I deinterlace the final render for delivery to give it the film feel.
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Old December 8th, 2004, 12:44 PM   #5
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60i, 4:3, mini DV. THE standard at this point.


Dont use 30p anymore, because I can deinterlace in post if I have to.


John
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Old December 8th, 2004, 01:49 PM   #6
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Same for me. 60i, 4:3.
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Old December 8th, 2004, 02:06 PM   #7
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60i, 4x3, DV

For creative segments, I shoot in 60i but convert to 30p using Magic Bullet. Don't know how much of a difference it makes if footage is already deinterlaced, though.

Will migrate to 16x9 in 2005.
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Old December 8th, 2004, 05:39 PM   #8
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man, almost all of you shoot at 60i...

and one person who shoots in 30p.


i have to agree with brett about shooting 30p, in that it does seem a little better to slow down, when doing vignettes and demos...afterall 60i is technically 30p with better rez.

but i guess thats why we all have different opinions,,,


john
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Old December 9th, 2004, 02:36 PM   #9
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50i (PAL land here) 4:3 miniDV

progressive is not for everyone. You either love it or hate it. Interlaced is more like a "classic" look, I'd say. At least for a wedding...
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Old December 9th, 2004, 02:37 PM   #10
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Yeah most people shoot on 60i but then again most (but not all) people have been and still are shooting on cameras that can only shoot 60i. Again ultimately its a personal style choice but here are a few more facts I can add for you to make a decision.

1)As mentioned before 60i will be the smoothest slo mo hands down but will show in half of the res if it were shot on 30p or 24p. Detail over smoothness is the question here. If you havent tried slowing down 30p yet dont knock it. You will be surprised how much better it is over 24p.

2)ONLY 30p can be turned into a "60P-like" format thru special software which in theory would be the format everyone would want to use. The smoothness of 60i but the great detail of 30p.

3)Technically speaking you cant turn 60i into TRUE 30p or 24p. It a physical impossiblity due to how the images are captured during shooting. Programs like Magic Bullet and others give it a similar LOOK to 24p but at the loss of some resolution (not to mention rendering times)

4)You can make much clearer frame grabs from 30p footage then 60i footage. Use the better frame grabs for your DVD cover shots or the label on the DVD without any compromise. (ie destructive deinterlacing process) You can also upres 30p footage with much more success then 60i for the same purpose.

These are the facts but beyond that its a creative choice. Anyone on this thread thats tried them all extensively and still shoots 60i? If so please share why. Otherwise I recomend you guys at least try out a 30p camera and see first hand the pluses and minuses.
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Old December 9th, 2004, 03:20 PM   #11
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***4)You can make much clearer frame grabs from 30p footage then 60i footage. Use the better frame grabs for your DVD cover shots or the label on the DVD without any compromise. (ie destructive deinterlacing process) You can also upres 30p footage with much more success then 60i for the same purpose.***


Im lucky to have, on average, 400 D-100 digtal files to work with(shot raw, then into tiff format) for things like dvd menus, slide shows, dvd album prints, ext. My brother does the photography. :) I like your post Brett, very informative.

John
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Old December 9th, 2004, 04:19 PM   #12
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a pair of xl2's, 30p, how can i go wrong?

;)

thanks again for this wealth of information.
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Old December 9th, 2004, 10:22 PM   #13
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John Greco-
Thats what I think but you should keep in mind that their are other factors outside of your original question of "what format to shoot on?" that you should take into consideration IF you asked the question to determine which camera to buy. Format very very important but in live event videography you have to take in certain other factors that can either help or hurt your ability to create quality video in general. A camera's low light ability is incredibly important. Reception sites are often floating around 1 lux. Two of the most popular wedding videography cameras PD150 and VX2100 are 1 lux/60i cameras as I recall on the other hand the XL2 and DVX100 are about 3 lux/ 30P cameras. This means if your reception is at about 1 lux your going to be about 1 1/2 stops under exposed. So you can see the trade off here. I personally shoot on a DVX100 and once in a while when it gets a little under exposed I brighten it up in post thru minor changes in the shape of the gamma curve, gain and other techniques. It brings back the image to 90% the quality of what it would have looked like if it was shoot in a location with enough light. For me, that occasional 10% loss of quality is worth all of the pluses of shooting on the 30p format. Even better would be to shoot with a pair of XL2. I've done side by side comparisons under extreme low light and found the XL2 yields a slightly cleaner image than the DVX100. Its strange but the DVX seems to have a slight bit of electronic noise when shooting in low light EVEN when set to 0db. In fact I wouldnt be too surprised if Panasonic set the "0db" gain setting at actually somewhere around 3db.

Bottom line check out EVERYTHING in each camera thats in your price range to make the wises choice (format, low light, lens, everything).
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Old December 10th, 2004, 08:07 AM   #14
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<<<-- Originally posted by Cosmin Rotaru : 50i (PAL land here) 4:3 miniDV

progressive is not for everyone. You either love it or hate it. Interlaced is more like a "classic" look, I'd say. At least for a wedding... -->>>

Count me in as not being a fan of progressive. I have a Sony WEGA XBR HDTV and a Progressive Scan DVD player. I was watching my DVD Architecht training videos and noticed the text on the computer screen in the video looked a bit softer than it looked while watching on my girlfriends cheaper non-progressive tv. I went and hit the switch on my DVD player to only output interlaced images- and RIGHT away I saw a difference in sharpness and legibleness in the small text. Granted, then I got a litle bit of interlace flicker but the Sony has a setting that reduces interlace flicker while maintaining sharpness.

Moral of the story (to me at least) just because it's newer technology doesn't mean it looks better. I'll take interlaced ANY day over progressive. Then again I'm a fan of crisp well defined images.
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Old December 10th, 2004, 08:27 AM   #15
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The WEGA has 3 DRC modes, Interlaced, Progressive and CineMotion. With your progressive DVD player, you should have the video settings set at 16:9, and not 4:3, if you are mating it to your WEGA HDTV.

Is your HDTV 4:3 or widescreen? Regardless, the setting on your DVD player should be set for 16:9 output. Secondly, on your TV, set the DRC to Interlaced for any DVDs that have interlaced material. Because your DVD player is mated to a TV that can take progressive video, the setting on the back of your DVD player should always be left on progressive. Use the DRC mode on the WEGA display to set for the different video modes.

Any film-based DVD should be set on Progressive on your TV. In the case with the DVD architect training DVDs, you should try setting the DRC mode to interlaced and DVD player setting to Progressive to see if that helps.

The only time you would need to you DRC of Cinemotion, is if you are viewing 24P Hollywood DVDs on a DVD player that does not have progressive output.
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