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Old February 28th, 2016, 01:31 PM   #16
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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I had one client this year ask me if I colour graded my footage, so interest can be there
What is that client expecting, that you otherwise shoot in b/w? ;)

It's like buying a tv that has a Triple XD Engine and TruMotion 120Hz, no-one knows what it means but it sounds important, it's more expensive so it must be good so clients that have seen that in advertisements when they where comparing tv's will go up to a counter at a store asking if a certain tv has that.

The same applies for weddings, the reason why they ask this is because they have seen a competitor offering "special cinematic colorcorrection" and charging a premium for it, as I see it it is just a way to make the client feel they get something special so extra money can be asked for it.

If you would shoot in a standard preset, do no colorcorrection and tell your client your are doing special cine colorcorrection any client would buy that, so why would having slog or 4:2:2 10 bit be so important? Is it not more to satisfy our own needs? Is it not because we are a victim of our own search of perfection? If your client does not understand the technical part of camera's, like 99% of weddingclients, then it doesn't matter in what preset we shoot in or if we do extra colorcorrection or not.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 01:51 PM   #17
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

Come to think of it the perfect camera for me is one that doesn't need any additional work in post, so it looks perfect straight out of the camera so that I can spend my time where it actually matters; the editing without loosing time colorcorrecting. And also one that would be really easy to work with, so I could concentrate on content the day of the wedding.
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Old February 28th, 2016, 11:11 PM   #18
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
If your client does not understand the technical part of camera's, like 99% of weddingclients, then it doesn't matter in what preset we shoot in or if we do extra colorcorrection or not.
Would you be happy if you hired a builder, plumber or car mechanic, who because they knew you were ignorant on their chosen profession, feel they could get away with doing a less than professional job. Oh this client doesn't know a thing about cars, we can cut a few corners, as long as it's good enough to satisfy them. I had a builder who fixed a leaky roof of mine. To my eyes it looked a great job. It was a different matter when I came to sell the house and had a surveyor tell me otherwise. You're being hired as a Professional, not to work to the standards of your clients, but to the standards of professionals, otherwise why would they hire a professional in the first place.

That said, budget plays a factor here. If the client isn't paying you to spend 3 weeks editing their video, you can't justify the time spent. I have different packages, and colour grading is there to give my top package more value for money. I use film convert to colour grade along with Looks, but it's reserved mostly for Highlights and the Shortform videos rather than the longer edits. Personally I like to keep my hand in with colour grading. It's another skill that needs practise to perfect and its amazing how much the image can be improved with just a little bit of extra work. I do though shoot with a colour profile that can deliver a good image out of the camera. Colour grading is just fine tuning for me and not the massive slog of using log. That way I can get away with no grading for my longer edits.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 01:13 AM   #19
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Andrew Maclaurin View Post
Matthias,
I use a Canon C100 as well. In general it's great, I love being able to control most things with the joystick in the grip. The only downsides are the VF, LCD screen and no 50p although I like shooting in 25p anyway.
I use WDR recorded in camera because it seems to work well in most situations and requires very little tweaking if it's exposed well and leaves room for a light grade. How do you find shooting with C-Log? Doesn't it and a level of complication in a run 'n' gun situation?
I found the C100 was the best balance between all the options available at the time I bought it, picture quality and ergonomics being most important to me. I essentially use 1 camera with a DSLR as back up or wide shot if necessary so I also love 2 slot recording.
I love C-Log but I also love color grading. If I could, I'd shoot everything in a raw format. I find myself shooting around my backyard with my dog on the weekends just so I can color correct and grade some footage. So that being said, if you don't like color grading, C-Log isn't for you. It takes a decent amount of color grading to look good. I use Premiere Pro CC 2015 with the Lumetri Color tool to do all my grading and love it. I am in the process of learning speedgrade and trying to decide if DaVinci would be worth the time/effort. If you don't want to spend an hour or so per minute of video color grading (I only offer short form videos 3-12 minutes depending) than I wouldn't recommend C-log.

That being said I have to agree with Steve. I think we all know that "most" clients will not be able to tell the difference between a video shot on a APS-C DSLR and a Cinema Camera (be it the C100/300/500 or even the Sony FS5/7) unless you show it to them side by side. For this reason I think it is important for me to shoot with what I KNOW to give me the best result within reason (typically the budget). If I could shoot every wedding with a couple of Canon C300 mkii cameras in 4k and C-Log, have them professionally color corrected/graded and have the sound mixed by a professional sound engineer, I would. We all know that isn't possible, so I do everything I can to get as close to that ideal as possible. I could very easily shoot every wedding with my good ol' Canon T3i and Canon HF G10, but I know that the quality is not worth the rates I'm going to charge. The T3i claims to shoot 1080p but in reality it looks terrible at any resolution higher than 720p and the HF G10 is maybe worse in low light than the HV20 I had years ago. (The digital noise caused by the sensor and the compression to h.264 just ruins most low light shots for me, compared to the more natural looking noise of the HV20 but that's another discussion for another time). I suppose my point is I personally hold myself to a higher standard. You don't have to. You are entitled to your opinion, but for me, ethically, I can't charge the prices that I do (which aren't even that expensive in my market) and not use every ounce of filmmaking knowledge I have to create the best final product I can.

I started this topic because we all know that when someone asks about a camera suggestion, the first question we all ask is "what are you using it for?" But I want to go beyond that. Of course if you need SDI output, you are going to eliminate all cameras that don't have SDI output, but then what? Then how do you choose? If you need a camera to shoot 4k, of course you eliminate all those who don't shoot 4k, but how do you decide between the GH4 and the Sony A7sII? My point is, I think we all know that what camera you choose is dictated by the job, but with the market flooded with cameras there are 20 different cameras for any job, so what I want to know is what comes next on your list? After the things you NEED, what do you want in a camera?
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Old February 29th, 2016, 01:24 AM   #20
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Steve Burkett View Post
You're being hired as a Professional, not to work to the standards of your clients, but to the standards of professionals, otherwise why would they hire a professional in the first place.
So your definition of a wedding professional is one that shoots in slog and/or colorcorrects his footage? :) I have seen plenty of colorcorrected (slog) footage that looks worse then incamera standard presets if not done right, you might say those people are amateurs but they do sell it as being "cinematic" and their clients think they are paying extra for something special. I"m sure if you would ask them they also would say they are "professionals" and they don't want to compromise.
It's just a way to make your work look more important and to charge a premium for it, it doesn't have anything to do with being a professional. That one client that has asked you if you are colorcorrecting your footage has no idea what he/she is talking about, it's just something they have seen offered by a competitor or they have seen a photographer mentioning they color correct all photos so they assume the same applies for video, it's a perfect way to make them pay more which is excellent way of doing business.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 01:55 AM   #21
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
So your definition of a wedding professional is one that shoots in slog and colorcorrects his footage? :) I have seen plenty of colorcorrected (slog) footage that looks worse then incamera standard presets if not done right, you might say those people are amateurs but they do sell it as being "cinematic" and their clients think they are paying extra for something special.
It's just a way to make your work look more important and to charge a premium for it, it doesn't have anything to do with being a professional.
I can't say I've bothered to define exactly what being a professional is; but I do know its not one who uses clients ignorance as an excuse to lower the quality of their work. I'm not saying, nor did I say in my earlier post that colour grading is essential either to be a professional wedding videographer or even to deliver a professional wedding video, but neither should it be dismissed entirely simply because clients may not notice it. Else you could apply this principle to other areas.
Say I spent 8 hours editing a trailer, but clients have been perfectly happy when I've spent just 2 hours, do I say its wasted then to spend 8 hours on my top Trailers, or does the time have value even if the extra work wouldn't be picked up on by my client. I film with 4 cameras, but when 1 goes wrong and I'm editing with 3 and the client doesn't notice, do I carry on with 3 cameras instead of 4. I've had a few occasions where the Groom's lapel mic didn't deliver audio, so I had to use my backup audio; the client doesn't notice, so I should forego using the lapel mic...

You can make disparaging remarks about colour grading all you like and drawing on those doing it badly is a poor argument against it. If some wish to take pride in their work and offer something more, then I say good luck to them. A great video relies on many ingredients; I don't expect my clients to be aware of every ingredient I put in, just appreciate the end product.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 02:02 AM   #22
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

Just thought of something, what do you understand under colorgrading? I do colorcorrection but for me colorcorrecting is about creating consistency throughout my footage by adjusting exposure, whitebalance but it's not the same as colorgrading which is to create a certain look what you can achieve shooting with a flat log preset.

If a client would ask you "do you colorgrade your footage" and you say you do, do you explain to them what you mean? Do you have a sample you can show them what colorgraded footage looks like and do you show them a sample of only colorcorrected footage? Because the client might have something completely different in mind, maybe a certain look they have seen and want you to emulate or maybe they just want to know if you colorcorrect your footage for consistency?

I do agree that colorcorrecting your footage is a part of being a professional and not just use raw footage without any further correction with wrong whitebalance etc, creating a colorgraded look however is a personal preference and that's the part I don't agree about that it would differentiate amateurs from professionals or that you would compromise in any way but not doing so.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 02:12 AM   #23
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post
My point is, I think we all know that what camera you choose is dictated by the job, but with the market flooded with cameras there are 20 different cameras for any job, so what I want to know is what comes next on your list? After the things you NEED, what do you want in a camera?
Problem is each camera system has its strengths and weaknesses. In an ideal world, I would like to take the low light of Sony A7s, the colour science of Canon, the smaller lenses of Panasonic and Olympus and create my perfect camera. Most top Production studios hire in cameras and this is done for good reasons. There's no perfect camera for every job. So if you're out on location, making a film, documentary or TV drama, you select the best camera for the job.
As a Wedding Videographer, I have to buy into a lens system. Am I tempted by other systems like Sony, yes, but I have to balance the cost and the fact is there are aspects of Sony I don't like even as some parts of it I do.

As I primary shoot Weddings with multiple cameras, my prime consideration is the small form factor of my cameras and lenses. I have to carry this gear; 4 C100's and 5 lenses would be too much for a lone shooter. So a camera has to be practical to use. The advantage of smaller cameras are that other gear can be smaller too; tripods, jobs, gimbals.

In the end, choosing a camera is as much about familiarity, and how you feel working with it. I've worked with some cameras that were technically better than others, but I've hated using it. I just love using the GH4 and that can't be defined so easily.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 02:23 AM   #24
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Just thought of something, what do you understand under colorgrading?

If a client would ask you "do you colorgrade your footage" and you say you do, do you explain to them what you mean? Do you have a sample you can show them what colorgraded footage looks like and do you show them a sample of not colorgraded footage?
I use Looks to colour correct my footage and filmconvert to colour grade my footage. Okay its not quite that simple as the 2 work in tandem, so I may adjust filmconvert to colour correct cool footage and use Looks to add something that's more in line with colour grading, like a vignette.

In the case where I was asked, I did explain the difference and that I colour corrected for my longer edits and colour graded for my shorter videos. I didn't show examples as the other questions suggested that the client was simply checking to see the level of service I offered rather than because they wanted a particular look. I agree that clients can see colour grading as a fancy word that makes a video seem better even if its not. However colour grading if done well can do great things for a video too. The time I have taken on those videos where I have applied it were not wasted.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 07:56 AM   #25
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post
I started this topic because we all know that when someone asks about a camera suggestion, the first question we all ask is "what are you using it for?" But I want to go beyond that.
What does "beyond that" even mean? I mean think about it. Go shopping for drill bit. Ask clerk for help. First thing he should ask you is what are you drilling? Wood or metal? If metal, what kind of metal. Same with a hammer, what are you nailing? Carpet tacks or carpentry nails? You have to know the end purpose of a tool in order to choose prudently.

However, I could choose to shop for a videocamera based on the sole criteria that it looks cool. It's my privilige to buy whatever I want for whatever reason I choose. But to a pro that would be idiotic. At least it would be to me.

To a consumer (not a pro) you could have all kinds of goofy and stupid ways of choosing a camera. For a pro the question should always be what will get the job I have to do at a price I can afford. Just my 2 cents.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 08:31 AM   #26
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post
After the things you NEED, what do you want in a camera?
I want in a camera what I need to get the job done :) You make a list of what your "needs" are for a particular job you are hired for to do and select the camera's that are able to provide that, then you can choose what you "want" like specific abilities that you find important, like the grading part or it can be that you want a camera to be shoulder mount, or maybe small and light, maybe you have a collection of sony glass so you stick with sony etc.

For weddings the "need" list is quite small and we videographers make the "want" list often much bigger then it needs to be.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 08:42 AM   #27
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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What does "beyond that" even mean? I mean think about it. Go shopping for drill bit. Ask clerk for help. First thing he should ask you is what are you drilling? Wood or metal? If metal, what kind of metal. Same with a hammer, what are you nailing? Carpet tacks or carpentry nails? You have to know the end purpose of a tool in order to choose prudently.
I'll be honest but I don't know anything about tools. I know I recently bought a ryobi drill because the guy at home deopot told me that black and decker drills are crap. Do they do the same thing? Yes. Was the ryobi drill about $30 more (cost me $60 instead of $30)? Yes. Do they do the same thing? Yep. Same with cameras. Look at the C100 vs 5d mkiii vs Sony A7sii vs Sony A7rii. They all range between $2500 and $3200. I would consider them all big contenders in the wedding video world, if you are looking to spend that kind of cash on a primary camera. They all shoot 1080p video but some do it differently than others. With the C100 you get the best battery life in the bunch. You also get XLR inputs and some manual features you won't see on any of the others. The 5d mkiii also takes great stills. It shoots more than adequate video and is a bit cheaper than the A7sii or A7rii. That being said the A7sii offers 4k video, stunning low light but has terrible battery life and so on. (I don't personally know much about the A7rii, so I'll leave that one alone.) My point is that all of these do the job for different people. I know wedding professionals who use all of these. But we are all doing the same job, no? Sure everyone has their own style and every wedding is a little different, but none of them are different enough to where I Would say one wedding requires a A7rii and the other a GH4, so what I'm trying to say is all the cameras I've listed in this post will do the job. Hell, my T3i will do the job. They are more than capable, so what do you look at after you get past the "it will do the job" part?

I personally chose the C100 for a number of reasons. If you go back to the original post I said that interchangeable lenses is a must, so I go C100 over maybe a Canon XF200 or even the XC10. Next was color reproduction and this is where I phase out anything but Canon. I don't like the green twinge I've seen in the Panasonic cameras color and I hate the way the A7 series produces red tones. Then sensor noise, and Canon C100 fits the bill. Continuing down my list, with the same exact lens, the C100 is (in my experience) sharper than the GH4 (and at least as good when the 4k is downscaled in post). I would say it matches or beats the sharpness of the A7 series, so I continue to pick the C100. To get back to the point, I'm not saying the C100 is the best for everyone, just for me. I want the best image quality for the price and in my opinion the C100 is it. The image quality on any or all the cameras I've mentioned, including the T3i, is more than adequate for wedding video (especially if you are going to go to DVD or online). My point is that I don't just choose the C100 because it is a camera that can do the job, but because it fits my style and my standards for what an image should look like and what I want from the ergonomics of a video camera.

Now maybe you don't have the same method. Maybe you don't care that much, you just punch in the features you want and sort by lowest price. Each job is a bit different, but at the end of the day they are all weddings and there are literally hundreds of cameras that can do the job. If that were my only criteria, I'd buy a couple old Canon GL2's on ebay and as long as I'm going to DVD, no one will notice, right?

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
For weddings the "need" list is quite small and we videographers make the "want" list often much bigger then it needs to be.
What's on your want list?
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Old February 29th, 2016, 08:50 AM   #28
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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What's on your want list?
Everything that I don't really need but always wanted to have. :)
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Old February 29th, 2016, 09:03 AM   #29
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post
Look at the C100 vs 5d mkiii vs Sony A7sii vs Sony A7rii.
I thought you didn't want this to be a "Camera A is better than Camera B" thread yet you just made a extensive list where you think your c100 is a better camera compared to the others, do you want us to make a list why we think our camera is better then, say your c100? I'm a bit confused now.
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Old February 29th, 2016, 09:25 AM   #30
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Re: What matters to you? - Camera Selection

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Originally Posted by Matthias Claflin View Post
so what I'm trying to say is all the cameras I've listed in this post will do the job. Hell, my T3i will do the job. They are more than capable, so what do you look at after you get past the "it will do the job" part?
Matthias, there's a danger of over analysing. I never feel my GH4 is the only camera that can film Weddings; it's the camera I have chosen for its size, its 4K, focus peaking and other useful functions. Its reliable and in the right conditions produces great footage that grades well.

If there's one thing that stopped me from getting the C100 mark ii, it was the lack of 4K. I just didn't feel like spending over 3k on a camera that didn't have that feature. Lack of XLR and some manual controls was easily lost; if like my AF101a, I find it better to record audio separately anyway and manual controls can be limited. Plus no touch screen, another bonus to the GH4 I welcome.

So basically, to answer your question, small form factor, 4K and touch screen are what I look for beyond the 'it'll do the job' part. Focus peaking, good screen resolution, slow mo and easily selectable custom settings perhaps also being on the list.
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