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Old August 23rd, 2007, 03:22 AM   #1
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24p in 29.97 timeline issues

I know I have another thread on here somewhere regarding the same issue, but a search, even of all threads where I'm involved, doesn't turn it up.

Using Vegas 6, by the way.

I'm doing a short film that mixes 24p footage and 60i footage. To keep the 60i stuff looking interlaced (supposed to look like a home video), the final product has to be 60i output.

When I shot the 24p stuff, I shot on an XL2 in 24p advanced (2-3-3-2 pulldown) mode, thinking it safest (most post options).

Following info I got on here in my previous thread, I took every 24p advanced clip (as it originated from my XL2) that ended up in the final cut, brought it into a 24p project (24p DV Widescreen template) and converted it to 24p standard (as standard is meant to be edited in a 29.97 timeline), by "rendering as" using the "24p DV inserting 3-2 pulldown" setting. I then went through and replaced each 24p advanced clip in the short film's 29.97 timeline with its 24p standard clone.

So, when I rendered the 24p standard chunks from the 29.97 timeline, I rendered using the NTSC DV template (with best quality selected instead of good, however).

When I check to make sure these final renders are okay, playing them in a 29.97 project, they look all ghosty during motion (slight trailing effect on whatever's moving in the shot), instead of just looking like 24p. Something is wrong here, and I don't know if followed bad info or did one of the later steps wrong or what. Could someone help?

To summarize/recap,

The goal was to from 24p with 2-3-3-2 pulldown (as shot in the XL2), to 24p standard (3-2 pulldown) to 60i/29.97 for final output.

Here's what I did,

-take original 24p advanced (2-3-3-2 pulldown, from my XL2) clips, put in a "NTSC DV 24p" project

-rendered using "render as"/NTSC DV 24p (inserting 3-2 pulldown)" template

-put new 24p clips in 29.97 project/timeline

-render 24p scene as "NTSC DV" (with best quality selected) for use in 29.97 timeline/projecct and final output

Again, using Vegas 6.



Thanks.

Last edited by Josh Bass; August 23rd, 2007 at 07:21 AM.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 06:52 AM   #2
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Anyone? Anyone? 24p advanced to 60i. . .
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Old August 24th, 2007, 08:46 AM   #3
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Josh, check out the thread titled 24p and 60i in same doc on the Sony Vegas forum as it seems to answer most of your questions.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 04:39 PM   #4
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Here's a couple things from there I wanted to ask about:

"Removing pulldown and editing at 24p and THEN adding pulldown keeps the look of film through everything"

Ok, if I shot 24pA, and have it in a 24p project, Vegas is automatically removing the pulldown as I put media in the timeline, right? So I don't have to worry about that step.

"Remove pulldown from the 24p material and edit as native 24p and then render to 60i. Treat your 60i footage as just that, edit and render to 60i and then joing all the 24PsF and 60i footage together."

Are they saying now that I should render to 60i from the 24p project, with original 24pA camera footage? I tried that already, with poor results. Again, isn't the pulldown removal automatic?

"The trap that needs to be avoided and what perhaps causes the confusion is editing 24p on a 60i timeline. This is NOT the same as editing 24p on a 24p timeline and rendering to 60i."

Which 24p are they talking about? Advanced or standard? I thought standard was supposed to be edited on a 60i timeline.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 04:49 PM   #5
 
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First option:
Shoot, edit as 24p in a 24p PROJECT. Render this timeline to 60i.

Second option:
Shoot 24p. Drop footage in a 60i timeline. Render this timeline to 60i.

These are *not* the same output/workflows.

Does that help?
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Old August 24th, 2007, 06:42 PM   #6
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I gotcha now.

Since I hand't tried it before, I tried the first solution, putting the 24pA stuff in a 24p project, rendering to 60i. I'm still getting some interlace-y unpleasantness. . .I feel like that can't be the best I could do.
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Old August 24th, 2007, 08:18 PM   #7
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I've uploaded a clip of the best results I've gotten thus far. I still see problems, so hopefully someone can tell me this ISN'T as good as it gets.

So this is a full res/uncompressed 60i clip rendered from 24pA footage in a 24p project.

What I don't like is the fields I can see during extreme movements. Watch as heads/hands move drastically. I just watched in windows media player where it looks fine, so try it on a TV/monitor, if you can. It shows up when I watch on my Sony production monitor.

http://www.joshbass.com/bestyettest.avi

10 seconds
38.4 MB

try right click/save target as if it won't stream.
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Old August 25th, 2007, 09:27 AM   #8
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Oh Lord. . .

Long and tedious testing has revealed so far that this is the best workflow:

-Start 24p project
-VERY IMPORTANT - BEFORE you put any media in project, in preferences/general tab, UNCHECK "allow pulldown when dealing with 24p DV" ---you get MUCH cleaner movement this way. You should close your brand new project and open it again after changing this setting.
-take 24pA camera footage
-put in project
-render clip to NTSC DV template.

To my eye, viewing on my sony production monitor, this yields footage that doesn't appear to lose sharpness, color, etc. You have four clean frames of video followed by one frame where you can see two fields at once, then four more clean frames, etc. I can see the interlaced looking frames when watching it at regular speed, but it's the best I've gotten so far.

I see now I should have made 60i copies of all my captured clips and simply edited using those, instead of 24p standard clips. Oh well.
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Old August 27th, 2007, 04:55 AM   #9
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Alright, so I made 60i clones of all the 24pAclips I used in the project, dropped 'em in the 60i timeline. after doing a test to verify it looked right in a 60i project.

My editor friend tells me that it'll never be completely smooth when doing 24p to 60i (meaning it'll never look as good as it did when it was 24p footage during movement) so for now I've lowered my expectations.

Now I have new issue. On all clips in my final timeline, I'm getting these "half fields" when the interlaced frames show up in the 60i version of the clip. What I mean by half field is a field that's got the lines doubly spaced apart. The full field doesn't look so bad, but these half fields look horrible. . .no way I can let 'em go. The funny thing is, if I copy the clip out of my timeline and paste it in an empty project, also 60i, with identical settings, I don't get this issue. I've tried, in my project timeline, removing FX, etc, still getting it. It's there when I render the clip too, not just in the timeline. If I add FX to the pasted clip in the empty project, still looks normal. I don't know what's causing it.

Here's a still from the timeline, FX and all, with a "half field" shown. The only thing I've known to cause this is when cropping/zooming a clip and outputting interlaced. This still's from an uncropped clip. (click on it to see at full rez)
Attached Thumbnails
24p in 29.97 timeline issues-half-fields.jpg  
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