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Old November 2nd, 2006, 05:05 AM   #1
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How to "X" in Vegas 7

I've used Vegas from V5, V6, and now V7. I've overlooked the lack of certain NLE capabilities, but now I need them. The odd thing is that I've found no posts or anything in the "Getting Started ..." asking/answering what seem like obvious questions to anyone who uses ANY other NLE.

1) The Timeline & Trimmer Time Cursor can only be dragged VERY, VERY slowly. What's wrong? (I don't want to use the Shuttle control as it's cute, but this is a computer, not a VTR.)

2) I want to instantly move to a point in the Timeline & Trimmer! But, if one touches anywhere in the Timeline Timescale to get the Time Cursor to move to this point, a "blue drag" is started. If one doesn't accidently get a blue drag, it's very easy to get yellow marks with a gray area between. I don't want either!

3) How does one SIMPLY get rid of the blue or gray areas -- I simply want IN and OUT marks.

4) Precise editing in every NLE, except iMovie, is done by 3-point editing. That means either 2 points in the Source and 1 in the Timeline OR 1 in the Source and 2 in the Timeline.

I've tried everything to accomplish this. For example, setting a LOOP area in the Timeline and placing the cursor at the beginning or end. Sending a clip from the Trimmer to the Loop seems not to work.

5) It's not only necessary to support 3-point editing, it must be possible to set an OUT-point in the Source and have the insert be "backtimed" based upon the 2 points in the Timeline.

6) Since, one needs IN and OUT points in the Timeline & Trimmer, these buttons are required, but missing:

MARK IN (yes, the I key works)
GO TO MARK IN
CLEAR MARK IN

MARK OUT (yes, the O key works)
GO TO MARK OUT
CLEAR MARK OUT

MARK ENTIRE CLIP
CLEAR IN & OUT
PLAY IN TO OUT

MOVE TO PREVIOUS EDIT (yes, the [ key works)
MOVE TO NEXT EDIT (yes, the ] key works)

7) With Liquid and FCP, either the Source or Record monitor can be sent via VGA/DVI to an HDTV for a full HD display. I see an External Monitor button on Vegas, but it seems to do nothing. From reading posts, I get the sense Vegas dosn't support VGA/DVI HD output of the current monitor. Correct?

8) Is there any way to get a Source Monitor window and not the "Trimmer mini-timeline?"
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 08:31 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
1) The Timeline & Trimmer Time Cursor can only be dragged VERY, VERY slowly. What's wrong? (I don't want to use the Shuttle control as it's cute, but this is a computer, not a VTR.)
Don't click on the icon at the top of the cursor line. Instead, just click anywhere and drag. This will, technically, create a "selection area" as you drag but you can move VERY quickly throughout the project this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
2) I want to instantly move to a point in the Timeline & Trimmer! But, if one touches anywhere in the Timeline Timescale to get the Time Cursor to move to this point, a "blue drag" is started. If one doesn't accidently get a blue drag, it's very easy to get yellow marks with a gray area between. I don't want either!
I guess I'm not quite following here. If you know the exact timecode you wish to jump to, you can easily do that by double-clicking the timecode below the timeline and typing in the new value. Your "blue drag" is called a "Selection Area". If you want to click somewhere and the selection area disappear, go to Options - Preferences - Editing tab, and check the "Collapes Loop Region" checkbox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
3) How does one SIMPLY get rid of the blue or gray areas -- I simply want IN and OUT marks.
You don't. The "blue or gray" indicates the selected area showing the space between the IN and OUT marks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
4) Precise editing in every NLE, except iMovie, is done by 3-point editing. That means either 2 points in the Source and 1 in the Timeline OR 1 in the Source and 2 in the Timeline.

I've tried everything to accomplish this. For example, setting a LOOP area in the Timeline and placing the cursor at the beginning or end. Sending a clip from the Trimmer to the Loop seems not to work.
Many people do this all the time. For example, set up the loop area on the timeline, put the cursor on the first frame you want in the trimmer, and press "A". That will add video starting at the cursor location in the trimmer in that selection area on the timeline - and only the exact selected length on the timeline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
5) It's not only necessary to support 3-point editing, it must be possible to set an OUT-point in the Source and have the insert be "backtimed" based upon the 2 points in the Timeline.
To do that, use "Shift-A" instead of "A".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
6) Since, one needs IN and OUT points in the Timeline & Trimmer, these buttons are required, but missing:

MARK IN (yes, the I key works)
GO TO MARK IN
CLEAR MARK IN

MARK OUT (yes, the O key works)
GO TO MARK OUT
CLEAR MARK OUT

MARK ENTIRE CLIP
CLEAR IN & OUT
PLAY IN TO OUT

MOVE TO PREVIOUS EDIT (yes, the [ key works)
MOVE TO NEXT EDIT (yes, the ] key works)
Nope. Just use the procedure I mentioned above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
7) With Liquid and FCP, either the Source or Record monitor can be sent via VGA/DVI to an HDTV for a full HD display. I see an External Monitor button on Vegas, but it seems to do nothing. From reading posts, I get the sense Vegas dosn't support VGA/DVI HD output of the current monitor. Correct?
You have the option of previewing externally via:
Firewire (will downconvert to SD)
Secondary monitor (uses a second monitor connected to your video card)
Other hardware (like decklink cards)

Options - Preferences - Preview Device is where you select the desired "external" preview method.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
8) Is there any way to get a Source Monitor window and not the "Trimmer mini-timeline?"
Vegas has ONE monitor window. It will always show the cursor position of whichever window has the focus. If you're looking at the timeline, it will show the cursor location on the timeline. If you're looking at the trimmer, it will show the cursor location on the trimmer. If you click something in the explorer window, it will show that.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 08:52 AM   #3
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It's important to remember that Vegas didn't develop the same way other editing apps did. Other apps developed mimicking the way old-style source/record linear editors worked. Vegas was developed not from the point of view of "how has this always been done," but from the point of view of "what's the best way to do this"?

To wit, Vegas is capable of doing everything you say, just not in the way you're used to.

As for the source monitor, a lot of people complain that it's not there when they first try Vegas, but it's not too long before they stop missing it. It's a waste of screen real estate IMHO.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 09:08 AM   #4
 
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Amen. In fact, other apps have been asked to *kill* the source window, as it's a waste of time.

The "tiny" timeline view can actually be made to be larger than the preview window should you desire.

Vegas isn't locked into 3 or 4 point editing, but it is done exactly the same way as an Avid or FCP system should you want to work that way.

"I" for "IN", "O" for OUT" and then "A" for "ADD" to the timeline at the point of the cursor. Many people also use "R" to mark a Region in the Trimmer.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 02:54 PM   #5
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Unique?

I had a fun experience 2 years ago when I wanted to try video editing because I had never used any, period. So I got the demos of everything and the only one that made sense was vegas (though I didn't try anything on the Mac since I don't have one). Avid was OK but confusing to find anything. Liquid annoyed me because nothing made sense. Vegas just seemed to work the most intuitively and the GUI helpd a lot with mouse over hints, prompts, etc.

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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:02 PM   #6
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I always get a laugh out of people who expect Vegas to work the same way as a traditional NLE. At the same time it is tragic because some of them give up on it.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham
I always get a laugh out of people who expect Vegas to work the same way as a traditional NLE. At the same time it is tragic because some of them give up on it.
Yes, it is tragic. I am one of those who is so used to the Premiere style, that I am having trouble forcing myself to use Vegas. I have full versions of both, but I still migrate back to Premiere, and it seems to be faster in the rendering area. But like a trooper I keep trying to get on the Vegas wagon mainly because it seems to be highly recommended in this community. But old habits die hard. And there are some things I just like doing better in Premiere. For instance, the way you access transitions or effects seems more intuitive and easier to me in Premiere.

I know, I know, I need training, but I did learn Premiere without trainings, so I guess I will learn Vegas too.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos
For instance, the way you access transitions or effects seems more intuitive and easier to me in Premiere.
How so? Ideally, you should just have the transition or FX windows active; you just drag/drop. Nothing easier than that.

If you work dual-screen (and everyone should), you can have every tool pallette open all the time, and then it's a matter of drag-drop for just about anything you can think of.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 04:48 PM   #9
 
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I'd LOVE to be able to work dual screen most of the time. Until someone makes a laptop with dual screens, or until I can find more time to be at home and less on the road, a single screen has to suffice. So, I've worked out a Vegas layout that works for me. I do wish the window text was smaller ala FCP/AVID so that I could size the windows down and have more info available.

Coming to Vegas from other NLE's is either very easy or very difficult. Either you catch on right away or you fight with it. It's all about editing style and what makes sense to you. I had no issue at all stepping right into FCP but struggled with Canopus Edius for a week or two. Struggled with Avid a bit, and still struggle with Boris, simply because they are "thought" differently at the programming/GUI/workflow set up stages.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 05:18 PM   #10
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Valid point, Spot. Most mortals don't travel as much as you do, though!

I've managed to do a mini-version of my dual-screen desktop layout on the laptop, though. You don't get dual-screen, but you do get about a screen and a third if you have the main Vegas window take up a 4:3 section (apprx) of your 16:10 screen.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 07:51 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
I'd LOVE to be able to work dual screen most of the time. Until someone makes a laptop with dual screens, or until I can find more time to be at home and less on the road, a single screen has to suffice.
I'm working on a 1200x800 MacBook that I'll carry to Asia along with a Sony camcorder. But, I would like the Preview window on an external HDTV. (Yes, 16:9 HDTV-ready sets are very available in Asian homes.)

So I'm still not clear -- can just the Preview window be sent out via the second port on one's laptop to an HDTV?

---------------------

By the way, there is a very good reason why every NLE has a Source window. When one is trimming a Source clip, one needs to see the LAST frame of the outgoing clip in the Timeline. (Or, review a portion of the Timeline.) It's also used for Match Frame editing.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 08:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
Vegas isn't locked into 3 or 4 point editing, but it is done exactly the same way as an Avid or FCP system should you want to work that way.
3-point editing has been used for over 30-years and for a very good reason -- it's the fastest way to do PRECISE editing FAST. So it's not clear why you think one is "locked" into something that's been proven to work perfectly. :)

"... and then "A" for "ADD" to the timeline at the point of the cursor."

That's not how these NLE's work as they Insert or Overlay between the IN and OUT points -- the cursor has nothing to do with it.

With Vegas, the incoming clip does NOT to stay within the IN/OUT area. The incoming clip, from it's In-point simply goes into the Track either before or after the cursor -- often wiping-out adjacent clips. I'm using the buttons below the Trimmer window. Am I missing something?

OK -- I understand the idea of a "loop" between IN and OUT, but "region?"
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 08:16 PM   #13
 
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The external monitor output of most laptops may double as a second display head, yes. Vegas will output via the Macbook Pro over the second head for the preview window.

Vegas allows you to do match frame as well, it's a matter of how you use the windows. In other words, it's understanding the app. The source window is a waste of real estate, IMO, and as others (who are doing work for film, broadcast, corporate as full time gigs have expressed) also don't feel they need it. But, sometimes the way a mind works and a software workflow don't mix.

BTW, see the cover of today's Screen Actors Guild magazine. A film we co-produced took the cover this month. Shot with Z1, edited entirely in Vegas. Over 3000 master clips, 120 minute film. LOTS of matching, lots of trimmer, subclip, and proxy files used. With proxies, composites, and match files, the project has roughly 12,000 events NOT including audio events, of which there are at least 4000. Finished entirely in Vegas. Much of it edited on a laptop outputting over a second head. The rest edited on an aging Dell (1.6GHzP3)
http://www.sagindie.org/spotlight.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
With Vegas, the incoming clip does NOT to stay within the IN/OUT area. The incoming clip, from it's In-point simply goes into the Track either before or after the cursor -- often wiping-out adjacent clips. I'm using the buttons below the Trimmer window. Am I missing something?
Yes. You're describing a four point edit, not a 3 point edit, and Vegas can do that, as well. Or insert editing, or insert assembly editing.

Yes, there are quite a few HD displays in Asia. And Australia. And....well....everywhere but EU. Brazil is full of them, so is much of the rest of South America. South Africa is as well.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 09:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle
The external monitor output of most laptops may double as a second display head, yes. Vegas will output via the Macbook Pro over the second head for the preview window.

Yes. You're describing a four point edit, not a 3 point edit, and Vegas can do that, as well. Or insert editing, or insert assembly editing.
If I'm missing something something, which I may be, it's because the only manual shipped is a very short "Getting Started ..." that covers none of these subjects. There's a reason Avid and FCP ship with a 2-inch manual. :)

I've downloaded the Sony Vegas PDF, however, the list of main topics doesn't even have an entry for "Trimmer."

By searching, I did find a SYNC TO description on page 123 . It will create a Selection in the Trimmer equal in length to a Region in the Timeline. Sounds good, but there's nothing about how to get this selection to line-up with a Mark In or Mark Out point already placed in the Trimmer.

It says to "drag" it where you want it. Dragging is never precise, which is why the world uses In and Out points. (I'm sure that any In/Out previously set is removed by the Sync and if you set an In/Out after the Sync it will screw-up the Sync!)

I suppose one could preset a MARK, and drag to it, but this adds even more steps to a convoluted procedure.

So, based upon the documentation supplied by Sony -- 3-point editing cannot be done. I'm not saying it can't be done -- I'm saying it's not documented.

Moreover, there is nothing obvious in the PDF about how to create a 4-point edit. Searching for the term yields nothing.

I've reviewed every NLE ever made, and it's nice to take a class to learn insider "tips" -- but the fundamental 2-, 3-, and 4-point editing operations are covered in great depth by the supplied documentation.

Moreover, given that Vegas departs from both world-wide, industry-standard terminology AND editing style -- it is even more Sony's responsibility to document their NLE in a manner that works for those who already know how to edit and have been editing for 30 years.

How about a book that available at a bookstore?

UPDATE: Found DSE's book. Only 4-pages on Placing Events in the Timeline and it didn't even mention the Sync Option I found in the PDF. No index item for Sync. Nothing on three- or four-point editing. So it remains an undocumented capability.
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Old November 2nd, 2006, 10:40 PM   #15
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In the Vegas HELP file (F1):

Quote:
Three-point editing

1. Open a media file in the Trimmer.

2. Mark the in and out points in your media file to create a selection:

a. Click the Play button in the Trimmer to start playback.

b. Press [ or I to mark the beginning of the selection.

c. Press ] or O to mark the end of the selection.

3. Position the cursor in the timeline where you want to add the event.

4. Click the Add Media from Cursor button to insert the selection after the cursor position in the currently selected track, or click the Add Media Up to Cursor button to insert the selection before the cursor.

Look around in the Help file for a while. It's FANTASTIC. Better than the manual in many respects, and always available right while editing.
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