How to "X" in Vegas 7

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Vegas might not have the greatest documentation, but it is easy to figure out, unless you're trying to apply paradigms from other applications to Vegas. If you're going to get into the old-world paradigms, Vegas definitely isn't the app for you, as it's not based on a 30 year old model that emulates tape, but rather was the first "true" non-linear editing system that didn't rely on old models, which is why it is a significantly faster workflow, format agnostic, resolution independent compositor, multitrack recorder, and editor.

You can purchase books from one of two authors for Vegas; one from Doug Sahlin, who clearly isn't a Vegas user but a damn good writer, or one of four books that I've written on the app. You've already posted that I'm not a good writer, but one thing I'm pretty good at is using Vegas. ;-)

1. Put two events on the timeline. Be sure they're separated by "X" amount. This will be similar to, but not the same as an insert edit.

2. Double click between the events. This creates a selection, indicated by a grey area, between the two events.

3. Open a clip in the trimmer. You can do this by:

A; setting a pref in the Options/Prefs to open any double clicked clip in the Trimmer
B; Right click a clip in the Vegas Explorer and choose "Open in Trimmer."

4. Now select your In point on the clip that is in the trimmer. No setting of markers anywhere, just place/scrub the cursor to your desired in point.

5. Now press "A" for Add.

This will automatically determine the Out point by the length of your selection or In/Out point (as determined by the selection) on the timeline.

Your clip becomes an inserted event with the In point of the CLIP selected when you placed your cursor in the Trimmer, the In/Out points on the timeline determined by your selection created when you double clicked.

That's a four-point edit in most systems.

[edit] I see David beat me to explaining a three point edit, so deleted my three point instruction.

Vegas is easily the fastest editing system on the planet. It might be seriously challenged for speed but not features with the soon to be released SpeedEdit from NewTek, but it's a fairly sparse app.

If you're looking for weaknesses in the Vegas system, they're not hard to find, but they're not at all basic editing features. If you really want to, you can EXACTLY emulate keystrokes from AVID or FCP with the Keyboard manager. Most of the similar tasks are already key-mapped to be like Avid.

Rolling edits, sliding I/O points, channel-dependent ripples, slip edits, they're all there. You just gotta open the on-line help that David mentioned; it's FILLED with examples, specific tasks, etc.

[Matti Remonen]

Just to add my €0.02 worth. And no, I'm not a professional in this arena, just a "regular home-video guy".

I've newer used any other NLE than Vegas (except Windows MovieMaker for a very short time). Instead I'm computer professional with bacground of 20+ years of system design, programming and consulting. Vegas is more like any other computer application than it is a video editor in my mind. It felt extremely comfortable from the first encounter onwards.

And getting back what Steve said in the beginning:

1) The Timeline & Trimmer Time Cursor can only be dragged VERY, VERY slowly. What's wrong? (I don't want to use the Shuttle control as it's cute, but this is a computer, not a VTR.)

How come? You just grab the timeline (not the "bug" in the top but just the line) and move it as much and as fast as you will/can.

And I do not know what is three or four point editing. I don't care, I just edit. I drop the event to timeline and trim it directly there. Only if I have extremely long take (tens of minutes) I might use trimmer. I use very much S (for splitting) to make rough cutting. Then I switch to Edge Trimming (with Num-7 and Num-9) and trim the take on frame precision using trimming keys. Actually I use ShuttlePro2 for this. Eventhough this is a computer and not a VCR I like to use ShuttlePro. I'm using keyboard and mouse also because it is so hard to find a decent cardreader nowadays (don't know the exact term for the equipment, but you know those perforated cards used to input computer commands in sixties).

All the best,

MRe

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Matti Remonen

And I do not know what is three or four point editing. I don't care, I just edit. I drop the event to timeline and trim it directly there. Only if I have extremely long take (tens of minutes) I might use trimmer. I use very much S (for splitting) to make rough cutting. Then I switch to Edge Trimming (with Num-7 and Num-9) and trim the take on frame precision using trimming keys.

From the comments, other than from DSE, it seems clear that many don't understand 3/4-point editing. What's being done is drag&drop editing. I've used Vegas since V5 and used this style, and of course, it works. But, it can't be EFFICIENTLY used for complex, precise editing. And, efficiency is why Hollywood and TV uses Avid.

3/4-point editing is one of the primary reasons because it achieves precision the fastest possible way. Avid editors ONLY use the keyboard which is why they can edit, as they must, very rapidly under pressure.

Bottom-line: Once the main AV track has been laid down, EVERY addition to a Timeline "should" be done using 3-point editing. Every still, title, extra audio, extra video -- every element -- is precisely inserted and not dragged into the Timeline.

1) The 2 SEND TO CURSOR functions are not 3-point editing. Thankfully, I have been able to use the SYNC function (page 123) and then dragged the Selection in the Trimmer to the cursor which I have pre-placed at the start or end of the correct point in the Source clip. (After which one must drag the selection to the Timeline.) So, I can now SIMULATE a 3-point edit. But, this is NOT 3/4-point editing. It's like hammering in a screw.

2) Using a Numeric Keypad for the primary trim commands was obviously invented in the days before laptops. This is a killer limitation. Thankfully, I don't have a big need to Trim "by pixel" or by "CD Index." :)

3) When you say you drop a long clip into the Timeline and trim it -- that works fine if you are creating a simple one track video. But, let's say you have two cutaways 1-minute apart in an upper track. Now you want to "precisely" place a third cutaway between them.

Sure you can place the cursor at the beiginning/ending of where the cutaway should go. But, what's going to happen when (IN NON-RIPPLE MODE WHICH YOU SHOULD BE IN) you send a 5-minute clip to the cursor point. You'll wipe-out either the first or second cutaway. Whoops!

-----------

Now to be honest, Avid's "modal" interface drives me nuts which is why I use FCP, EDIUS, Premier, and Liquid. All these NLE's offer most, but not all, of Avid's power, yet are far more relaxed in their rules.

And, like you -- I mostly drag&drop because its EZ. But:

1) I know I'm not editing correctly.

2) I don't teach this method because I don't want my students laughed at when they try to get a job.

3) I know my NLE can do 3/4-point editing when a Timeline gets complex.

Now, I've learned that I can at least simulate 3-point editing in Vegas. Hopefully, we can get past the "new way" is better than the "old way" attitude that pops up everytime Vegas is found missing a function. Every NLE has missing functions.

One question: It's way too easy to wind-up with a dark gray bar between IN and OUT points. It's a distraction. That's why other NLE's offer a CLEAR BOTH IN AND OUT button or key. What's the simplest way to erase both In and Out points.

PS: Vegas seems to be working fine on the MacBook with 1080i HDV. Preview quality is typically full-speed.

The only problem is I can't set the Intel 950 under Windows to open a second monitor larger than 720x480. Thnakfully, Vegas uses it fine -- but I must Zoom 4:3 to 16:9 on my HDTV.

[Edward Troxel]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

3/4-point editing is one of the primary reasons because it achieves precision the fastest possible way. Avid editors ONLY use the keyboard which is why they can edit, as they must, very rapidly under pressure.

Bottom-line: Once the main AV track has been laid down, EVERY addition to a Timeline "should" be done using 3-point editing. Every still, title, extra audio, extra video -- every element -- is precisely inserted and not dragged into the Timeline.

1) The 2 SEND TO CURSOR functions are not 3-point editing. Thankfully, I have been able to use the SYNC function (page 123) and then dragged the Selection in the Trimmer to the cursor which I have pre-placed at the start or end of the correct point in the Source clip. (After which one must drag the selection to the Timeline.) So, I can now SIMULATE a 3-point edit. But, this is NOT 3/4-point editing. It's like hammering in a screw.

3) When you say you drop a long clip into the Timeline and trim it -- that works fine if you are creating a simple one track video. But, let's say you have two cutaways 1-minute apart in an upper track. Now you want to "precisely" place a third cutaway between them.

Sure you can place the cursor at the beiginning/ending of where the cutaway should go. But, what's going to happen when (IN NON-RIPPLE MODE WHICH YOU SHOULD BE IN) you send a 5-minute clip to the cursor point. You'll wipe-out either the first or second cutaway. Whoops!

I'm still not understanding your problem. You want to fill in the 1 minute gap - very simple. Double-click the gap which will create a selection area around that 1 minute area. Now, in the trimmer, click on the FIRST frame to appear in that gap. Now press "A". This will fill that gap and ONLY that gap. This is the exact instructions I gave in the first post. Three points - data added precisely where you wanted it.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

2) Using a Numeric Keypad for the primary trim commands was obviously invented in the days before laptops. This is a killer limitation. Thankfully, I don't have a big need to Trim "by pixel" or by "CD Index." :)

My laptop DOES have a numeric keypad. Not all laptops are missing the keypad. I agree that on the laptops that do not, it is a pain to switch back and forth between modes but it can still be done. Better yet, get a USB numeric keypad or reassign the functions to some other key.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

you're not "simulating" a 3 point edit. Nor are you simulating a 4 point edit. The media doesn't have to go to cursor, that simply is how it's been explained to you.

And, in YOUR OPINION, every editor should be inserting from a source window, which demonstrates you're not an editor that sits behind a computer all day cutting video for a living. Those of us that do love the fact that we can drag, insert, 3 point, 4 point, generate, slip edit, roll edit or whatever we want. And do so efficiently.

If you want Vegas to behave like a "30 year old paradigm" then you should probably be editing with the 30 year old application, because you've already wrongfully denounced several features in Vegas.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

And, like you -- I mostly drag&drop because its EZ. But:

1) I know I'm not editing correctly.

2) I don't teach this method because I don't want my students laughed at when they try to get a job.

3) I know my NLE can do 3/4-point editing when a Timeline gets complex.

"Not editing correctly?" Damn, didn't know there were rules requiring a certain workflow. If that's the case, then every non-Avid editor should fold up his tent and go packing.

I have students, Jeffery Fisher does, Mike Chenoweth does, John Rofrano does, Paul Zimmerman does; Keith Kolbo does, Patrick Masters does, and how ever many others I don't care to name, because we genuinely have classes we teach both for certification and not for certification. Who are you to suggest that we're teaching incorrect techniques whether it's Vegas, FCP, Xpress Pro, or Final Cut? You're currently a journalist, not a shooter, editor, or instructor.

On behalf of those of us that are "not editing correctly", I'd submit that many of us are making a great living and having a great time while doing so. And doing so for small clients like MTV, CNN, Fox Sports, ESPN, Discovery, Food Network, TLC, ABC Nightline, ABC News, NBC, HBO, Showtime, Encore, Justice Network, Disney, Comcast, yadayadayada.

[Matti Remonen]

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

You want to fill in the 1 minute gap - very simple. Double-click the gap ...

Thanks Edward, this really made my day. In two days I've again learned more about Vegas than in during last six months (about how to show/hide envelopes and now this).

You know: Vegas is like Word (the MS app): you probably use 10% of its power and features in any given time but everybody is utilizing different 10% slice of the full potential. Everyday you learn something new if you just walk your eyes open.

SPOT: calm down ;) it's not worth it.

And yes. I do not understand the 3/4 -point editing. I can hardly do a 3-point turn with my car. But so what, this is not a religion, its an app. The bottom line here is how fast and on what quality it will help you to get your job done.

[Marco Durando]

I'm only a hobbyist videomaker, I recently tried Vegas 7 and found it quite easy and practical to use after a short training period, although I was used to Premiere Pro (that is quite different).

However I couldn't find a way to perform in Vegas a simple task: having a clip that freezes on a certain frame and holds it for a defined time (in Premiere this was easily done by "Hold on" associated to "in/out point" or "marker").

May I take advantage of your knowledge and ask you whether this is possible in Vegas and how ?

Thank you

[Edward Troxel]

Yes it is. You simply add a Velocity envelope, add a point the frame before the cursor and a point at the cursor location and change the second one to 0%. If you want a gradual slowdown, put more space between the two points. Vol 1 #9 of my newsletters explains changing the speed of a clip in much more detail. Also search for Velocity in the help file. 0% is freezeframe.

[Bill Ravens]

doncha just love brand loyalty? i work with a lot of PhD's, and beleive me, they have one way...their way. too funny.

BTW, Steve, I am most greatful to you for your JVC GY-HD110 handbook. There's info in there no one else has ever explained to me.

[David Jimerson]

There's a difference between respecting a particular tool and "brand loyalty." Me, I don't give a rip about Sony in the slightest.

[David McKnight]

I don't understand what the initial problem is?

1. Other, older tools FORCE you to do things one way.

2. If you want to do things that way, Vegas will let you.

3. At the moment, you can't (or couldn't) figure out how to do it so you condemn Vegas?

I can't understand why you'd want to follow a 30-year old, less efficient paradigm. And if you say it's because that's the way it's always been done and that you're teaching editors this way for employment reasons, I say baloney. I'd rather have a sharp independent thinking editor that can efficiently SOLVE PROBLEMS and deliver the goods, I don't really care what NLE he uses or which method he chooses to edit. You should be showing them how to do these 3-point edits in Vegas and them show them that they don't have to do it that way anymore!

For me, I may never work in someone else's post facility, all my stuff would come through independent channels. And my opinion is that in the future you will see more of that. Just as recording studios have become project based businesses, so will editing and post production.

[Steve Mullen]

I just moved to LV, but in NYC I taught at Video Production at Rutgers, the University of the Arts, and in NYC. Of course, one needs a PhD to teach university students. :)

My coverage of Vegas in HDV@Work (25,000+ readers twice a month) would be very good for Vegas, but since all of my readers are professionals who do use 3-point editing, I don't think they really want to hear they are "30 years behind."

Moreover, this thread will certainly give pause to anyone looking at Vegas before buying. Most folks want a tool, not a religion. They want questions answered. They do not want to be told they don't need answers because they are "doing it wrong."

I suggest those who want to learn how to edit efficiently, read my bi-monthly series on Avid editing at camcorderinfo.com. Next week I'll cover trimming. Later, you'll learn true 3-point editing.

[Chris Hurd]

It's clear that part of the appeal of Vegas (make that tremendous appeal... it's the fourth most active forum here, and it enjoys a level of enthusiasm from its worldwide users similar to that of Final Cut Pro) is the variety of available ways with which one can accomplish a given task. In fact it reminds me of Final Cut quite a bit in its flexibility; in Vegas, like Final Cut, you can pick a particular task and find several ways to do it, as has been demonstrated in this thread.

Its customization is also appealing: as has been pointed out, if you want Vegas to work like an Avid application, then you can simply map the keyboard within Vegas to function exactly as it would in Avid.

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Using a Numeric Keypad for the primary trim commands was obviously invented in the days before laptops.

Add a numeric keypad to any laptop for $20, and gain an extra USB port in the process:

http://www.targus.com/us/product_det...p?sku=PAKP004U

While Vegas might not yet be found in a Hollywood edit suite, it's worth noting that more than a couple of broadcast news affiliates are using Vegas to prepare their ENG packages for air... Digital Media Net ran a story on one such station in Dallas. I'll try to find that link.

Edit: Here's that link: http://vegas.digitalmedianet.com/art...e.jsp?id=28885

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

... it enjoys a level of enthusiasm from its worldwide users similar to that of Final Cut Pro ...

That's very good news. To me it seems obvious that Apple owners are going to stay with FCP. So the really interesting, from a news point of view, is what will PC users use for HDV and XDCAM HD. With the support of XDCAM HD (and the new JVC 200 and 250), I suspect Vegas is in a position to attract a different kind of customer. One with a much bigger budget. One who is very comfortable in the Avid world.

If there is one thing that Avid editors believe, it is that nothing "trims" like an Avid. And, despite my dislike of Avid's "modal" interface -- I believe they are 100% correct. And, they have a client list that proves it. To claim the top Hollywood and Post editors "just don't get it" is absurd. I've never even heard a pro FCP person make such a claim.

It's also a very poor marketing tactic -- one I really doubt Sony wants to follow.

Because I have used Vegas for years -- I asked the ONE question which would be asked by any high-end editor. I asked the question because I missed page 123 in the PDF.

As some may know I'm finishing a series on Avid Liquid. The open question is which PC NLE to cover next. Avid has announced XDCAM HD will ONLY be supported by Composer at $5,000. (Which means they see XDCAM HD as something only the high-end will use.)

Premiere Pro as part of Adobe Studio is THE obvious choice. However, it still has an issue with long HDV programs and I don't think XDCAM HD is yet fully supported. So that leaves Vegas.

I really wasn't interested in hearing opinions about Vegas or about what certain people thought of certain styles of editing. I simply wanted answers about HOW to do ALL forms of 3-point editing. << I still want to know how 4-point can be done! >>

Having figured-out a way to do all types of 3-point trims -- is a very positive step toward covering Vegas.

Vegas and Liquid have something in common -- the creation of 5.1 surround sound IN the NLE application. The difference is that Vegas allows the AC3 file to be exported while Liquid does not. Now if you are planning to burn high-definition DVDs that's a very big positive. And, since Sony's VAIO is ready to burn BD -- you can see the obvious connection between Vegas and VAIO. Especially when the BD burning software is $80.

Thank you to Chris for cleaning this thread up.

[Bill Ravens]

FWIW....I've worked with one of the editors from The Sopranos, you may recall she won an emmy. She's used to working with Avid and was completely blown away when she saw me doing work on Vegas. Needless to say, I spent over 80 hrs working for her independent piece...and all on Vegas. The limitations were my own ignorance, not the capabilities of vegas.