MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Hey gang, im getting into 3D and have some questions, maybe someone here can shed some light.

Using JVC 3D camera
I'm shooting in the MVC format and not SIDE BY SIDE.

So far the camera is performing great- the only issue is that the MVC file types dont playback on the tv's. The tv's dont upconvert the image like they do with SIDE BY SIDE.

Anyone have a solution how to get MVC to play in 3D

i've exported is as every file type i could and nothing.

Also, what software if you guys know, is the best to upconvert the MVC to a SIDE BY SIDE image?

I looked into that neo3D(cinefrom) but i dont know if it can do that

thanks in advance

Sat

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

There was some discussion about this last May, I don't remember how to link in another post properly but look back some for "sony td10 3d camera editing suggestions" for a similar discussion. At least it seems to be very close.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/3d-stere...estions-3.html

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Saturnin,

MVC (multi-view coding) is a subset of the H264 codec. Here is some info on Wiki;
Multiview Video Coding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically, what happens is that two data streams L & R eyes are recorded to one frame. How this is accomplished is that the Left data stream is recorded at full resolution and the Right data stream is what's called a Delta stream meaning that it only reflects the differences between it and and the Left stream. In decompression, this missing data is filled in from the Left data to make two complete data streams.

I'm not sure I understand why you can't play back the footage. If you are trying to do it directly from the camera, although I don't have experience with the JVC or Panasonic 3D cameras that record to this format, I do have a good amount of experience with Sony cameras that do. They will output through the HDMI connection a Side by Side which your 3D HDTV will recognize as 3D and display. I would be very surprised to find that JVC and Panasonic cameras don't do this also. Sometimes you need to "tell" your 3D HDTV that it is seeing a 3D data stream.

If you are trying to post produce MVC footage, then you are in an entirely different ballpark. What I have had to do is break open the MVC files and separate them into discreet L/R streams, then use either Tim Dashwood's FCP/AE plug in, or Cineform Neo 3D to edit them. It can take some steps to do, but it can be done. With the Sony footage, they provide you with a program called Content Management Utility that will do this to their footage. I don't know if it will work with other manufacturers MVC files but might be worth a try.
Sony | Micro Site NXCAM & AVCHD

Another program is also free and called MVC>AVI found here;
3dtv.at - MVC to AVI Converter
Once your files are AVI it's no trick to convert them to MOV for use on Mac systems.

I have had issues with this software and the Sony MVC files, but others report that it works well with the JVC MVC files.

Hope this helps.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

"So far the camera is performing great- the only issue is that the MVC file types dont playback on the tv's. The tv's dont upconvert the image like they do with SIDE BY SIDE. "

I assume you are talking about the JVC GS-TD1, don't know what TV you use. I looked up the spec for the JVC and it is technically very poor - very "folksy", But it does suggest that the camcorder plays back 3D on 3DTV over HDMI, so it should have HDMI 1.4 or HDMI1.4(a) output interface. The MVC/side-by-side has very little to do with upconverting(?), it simply implies whether you will eventually get a full resolution or half resolution worth pixels on your TV. If your TV is really a 3DTV, it should auto-sense the 3D video and you should be able to the 3D output. If it doesn't do so, you should have a manual 3D user interface menu on the TV somewhere to select 3D input mode. If it doesn't do it, you don't have a good 3DTV.

If you have a 3D side-by-side or above-below, you basically compress the L/R as 2D. This is preferable for broadcast, because it used standard 2D bandwidth, and they can use standard H/W equipment, standard MPEG2 or AVC codecs. They just need to add some metadata to the streams. 1.3 HDMI standards and cables will work, as well as the 1.4a for these (half res) video packing modes. If both pieces - source (BD, STB) and TV are 3D, HDMI1.4a will be most likely used, headers will accompany the source pixels and TV will "set itself" up for the proper playback mode.

MVC is an extension of AVC, and basically the right video stream consists of only P and B frames, slaved on the occasional I frames on the left video stream. User doesn't need to understand this. It simply allows for a higher compression, so that both left and right frames can be compressed at a full resolution, not half res as SBS or AB (above). Because of bandwidth and the associated existent standards, electronic complexities and costs of equipment, the frame rate have been limited by the HDMI 1.4(a) to 24/48 Hz. This mode is referred to as "frame-packed" mode as well. Both devices have to comply with HDMI 1.4 or 1.4a to use it. Basically the devices have to exchange two full frames in one traditional frame time period. That is obviously taxing the bandwidth and associated issues, hence the 24/48Hz limit. Therefore when people complain why don't they support 60P on 3D - they do but only at half res. Some TVs might support 60Hz for the frame packed mode, but they don't have to, and it is not in the spec.

Editing these video streams is somewhat different and lot more complex issue, specially with respect to the MVC.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

The JVC GS-TD1 is hardly a poor or "folksy" 3D camcorder. It has excellent image quality and a great many very useful manual and semi-automatic controls. It's a very capable 3D shooter that can yield some remarkable results. The only reason I'm upgrading to the HMZ1 next week is that it has a 24p shooting mode.

I've edited TD1 footage extensively in Sony Vegas Pro, and I'm working on a long form 3D video about the Missouri Botanical Garden.

Video from the TD1 plays back in its original pristine quality from the camcorder's HDMI output to virtually any current model 3D TV. There's no conversion to side by side. My JVC RS40 projector identifies the signal as 60i frame packing, but my Samsung 3D TVs have no trouble with the signal either.

Here's my simplified Vegas workflow:

1. Split the MVC files to left/right streams using Peter Wimmer's MVCtoAVI utility and a Cineform codec.
2. Mux the files into Cineform intermediates and perform corrections in Neo FirstLight.
3. Import into Vegas and edit normally.
4. I use the Yadif plug-in with Vegas to de-interlace clips with especially difficult motion (which can be a lot of the clips). Converting the camcorder's 60i video to 24p 3D Blu-ray can be problematic, since Vegas (without help) does not handle de-interlacing very well. The Sony TD10 and the JVC TD1 have this same issue.

The results for me have been spectacular. Granted, my video does not contain a great many "problem" clips (ones with lots of fast motion or lateral movement). That's why I'm upgrading to the pro version of the JVC. It has a 24p shooting mode which will eliminate the need to de-interlace the video for future projects with more challenging motion scenes.

There's a great deal of discussion about these topics over at AVSForum. Check out 3D Central. There are threads on the TD1, Sony Vegas and the new kid on the block - Cyberlink PowerDirector 10. If you want to, you can import your files into PD10 and convert them to side by side half, side by side full, top/bottom half/full, etc. It's also another way to split the files without using MVCtoAVI. It's also the only way currently available to make 3D Blu-ray menus. It's buggy, because it's so new, but it's fast and easy, not to mention the fact that it saves tons of hard drive space over the Cineform alternative. Motion is still a problem, but Yadif should help there, too.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

I wasn't very clear in the post. I meant to say say the SPEC - the document on JVC web site - was poor, I couldn't tell which revision of HDMI or which resolutions/frame rates were supported. I cannot judge the camcorder, but I don't doubt it is great. I didn't mean to insult anyone - tried to help. Furthermore I specifically answered the question, dealing with TV display formats.The original poster asked about TV display.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Hi Sat.

Even i don't have any 3D camcorder yet, i have some experience with 3D BDs.

Before converting MVC to SBS you may want to give it a go with Peter Wimmer's Stereoscopic Player.
It uses Core AVC-Core MVC decoder in his application. (Core Codec supplies Core MVC decoder as SDK to 3rd parties..) Dunno it's gonna work with your camera's MVC files.

In any case if it doesn't work we have some experience in converting 3D BDs to SBS.

1) Extracting left and right videos and audio via eac3to.

2) Remuxing left video into an mkv or m2ts container via MKVMergeGui or TSMuxer.

3) Decoding right video via free MVC Decoder (the unique one) and re-encoding to h264 and remuxing into an mkv or m2ts container.(you have to decode it and re-encode again since you can never watch it as is.)

4) Watching it as SBS with Stereoscopic Player with a similar aviscript:

Or watching directly: Leave the right and left videos seperately after remuxing and open Stereoscopic Player - File - Open Left and Right file, select the 2 streams and check "Use audio track from left file".

5) Or making an SBS using x264 encoder directly or over Adam's tool.


Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph - Doom9's Forum

Doom9's Forum - View Single Post - Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph

Doom9's Forum - View Single Post - Any free MVC encoder yet?

Doom9's Forum - View Single Post - Any free MVC encoder yet?

Any free MVC encoder yet? - Page 16 - Doom9's Forum


Or you can use Multiavchd:

Guide to convert BD 3D to 3D Left+Right Stereoscopic and Anaglyph - Page 11 - Doom9's Forum


_ _ _ _

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

My bad. It was a language problem with the pronoun antecedent of "it." :D I understand what you were trying to say now.

JVC often doesn't get a lot of love in some circles, and although I understand that, the TD1 is capable of producing some pretty impressive images. I'm looking forward to getting the HMZ1 and shooting in 24p.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

With 60i MVC 3D files I've had no trouble with the usual tools like MVC to AVI Converter. However, that's not been the case with Sony NX3D1 generated 23.98 MVC 3D files as there have been a multitude of problems processing those.

Let us know when you get your 24P 3D camera up and working as to how you fare on this issue.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

If there's a possibility I may run into major issues using 24p files in my workflow with the HMZ1, I'll wait to find out. I love the TD1, and the main reason for an upgrade is to be able to leave the "interlace" issue in my rear view mirror.

Hopefully, Tim will be able to shed some light on that when he finishes his comparative review.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

I just got an e-mail from Peter and he says if 24p is not working in MVCtoAVI, he'll make it work. He wants a sample file. Anyone have one? I'll browse around here and see if I can locate one.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

thanks for all the replies. I'm going to read through all of them

the JVC 3D Everio shoots in 59fps and not 24, i tried the MVC to AVI converter and would appear that it takes the 59fps file and converts it to 29- is that correct? the footage is interlaced and choppy and lower quality than the MVC file.

i could not find an option in the MVCtoAVi converter that will allow me to set my frame rate. Unless i'm doing it wrong.

i've tried all the options in the MVCtoAvi and cant seem to find the right one that will split the MVC file into the two and it will look just as good as the source material- its always interlaced etc

i do belive that in the very near future the side by side format will be old news and MVC will be the new one used.

i'll have some more questions soon and might msg some of you guys directly

thanks again
Sat

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Saturnin, pardon me if I'm being overly instructive here, but 29.97 is 59.94.
29.97 is the Frame Rate (2X 29.97 = 59.94) of 59.94 which is the Fields Rate of the footage. It's confusing because 29.97 can also be the frame rate of 30P progressive footage.

I don't think MVC>AVI is trying to de-interlace or convert your 60i footage into progressive but you need to click the Configure button on the codec you are selecting to make sure those settings are correct for your footage. In MVC>AVI that's File/Settings/Video Encoder. There is a progressive check box in there for some codecs like Cineform, so make sure it isn't checked.

I've had no problems with MVC>AVI converter with 60i/59.94 footage from Sony TD10, my problems with the program are with 23.98 footage from the Sony NX3D1 which the software's author has acknowledged are not working and I have to go the Sony software route to split out L/R.

I'm also totally unfamiliar with the JVC camera so I'm sorry I can't be more footage-specific about that. Doesn't JVC give you any software to split the MVC L/R out?

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

^ ok great, i will look into it - i still dont know what the best option of export form MVCtoAVI is - i need the one with most quality. Does the trial have some options that are locked? And when you buy it, it unlocks some stuff?

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

thanks :) guys

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

As far as I know, MVCtoAVI is fully functional as a trial. You may not have all the codecs you need on your system. Cineform codecs costs money. If you want, you can use the free Matrox codecs. I've used the Matrox MPEG2HD codec at 120-150 mbps and it seems close to Cineform "High." Both will increase file size by 8 to 10 times the original.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

yes i think that was the issue.. not having all the codecs .. i'm working on them now- i hope that helps

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

still having this issue with thE JVC and its MVC file format...

apparently they are using a slight different algorithm then the SONY/PANNY

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Saturnin, I've been reading that the new Edius NLE version handles all the MVC formats natively. I'm pretty sure there's a 30 day fully functioning trial available for download, so why not try it out and see if it works for you? With all the troubles you've been having it might be the best solution so far. Too bad JVC doesn't give you any software options with the camera that are usable.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

The Edius 3D trial has been great. It imports the JVC files and works with them right in the timeline - no conversion necessary. It won't let you export directly to Blu-ray 3D, but that can be accomplished by exporting MVC files and importing them into PowerDirector 10. There, you can add 3D menus and export to Blu-ray 3D. I'm still not sure how to maintain the highest bitrate in PD10, but otherwise the process is smooth and painless. Today is the last day you can do the crossgrade from other NLEs to Edius for half price. Of course, that could be extended.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

thank you all for the help

this is what i have figured out so far -i work on PC with Premiere - AND IT WORKS like a GEM, that is if MVC file format playback was used in everything, but it is not. :( at least not yet.

JVC TD1 3D EVERIO -MVC file format can be played back/edited via PREMIERE 5.5.
After editing the MVC footage in Premiere 5.5 i can export it as either a h264/mov file/mpeg2 Take that file into POWER DVD 11 and it will play in 3d with AMAZING QUALITY. I can edit in MVC without having to change over to L/R and or SIDE BY SIDE.

The 2 problems that i have are these.

Issue 1: I need to be able to have a SIDEbySIDE file to play on current 3D TV's, but they do not support the MVC format. The current TV's to my knowledge and some testing, only accept the SIDE BY SIDE image, then the TV does the up converting - if i am wrong on this, please chime in if i'm missing something.

Issue 2: Most people who have a 3D computer are most likely using the NVIDIA setup, now, the NVIDIA software is so cluttered and is so user unfriendly that im not sure what they were thinking with it. Anyone agree? It is very furstrating to navigate it and get 3D to work. Also the NVIDIA software does not play back MVC files. Which is a problem.


thanks everyone .. hope we can all help eachother

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

question about the Edius 3D software - does it allow you to export the MVC after as either a SIDEbySIDE or L/R images?

this is my main hurdle right now, i need to be able to provide content for current 3D televisions.(if you read my post above i talk about it)

Current 3D tv's only to my knowledge support the crappy SIDEbySIDE format, so the issue is that, i have to encode the MVC into SIDEbySIDE, but each time i try to do it with the software that's out there, the quality is terrible and the 3D effect gets lost. There is no one solution to take that MVC(edited or not) and spit out a proper SIDEbySIDE or L/R images, at least to my knowledge. I tried MVCtoAVi and cineform and so far i'm getting really crappy results- maybe i'm doing something wrong?

Also having to encode and recode is as you guys know a pain in the ass and just adds another step to the editing process that could possibly be fixed if someone could get a piece of software out that lets u edit the MVC and after you can choose to export the edited file into the other appropriate formats.


I know that cineform has some decent software out but that software is not yet coded to support the JVC's MVC format. Cineform can take your L/R images and mux it and it looks good.It just cant handle exporting the JVC MVC to a decent SIDEbySIDE or L/R.

this is the problem with being one of the first to adapt to a new tech, lot of figuring stuff out.. heh

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Lots of food for thought there. First of all, I wasn't aware that Adobe had added native support for MVC files in Premiere 5.5. I'll have to see that. Second, how are you getting PowerDVD to play those files in 3D? If you're engaging the 2D to 3D conversion feature, that's not real 3D. I wasn't aware that PDVD could play 3D files natively.

Modern 3D TVs support side by side, top/bottom, sometimes checkerboard, sometimes other formats, and they definitely support Blu-ray 3D (at 1920x1080 24p and 1280x720 60p). Most of the TVs (maybe all of them) also support the MVC format (1920x1080 60i 3D - what JVC calls "frame packing for interlace"), as long as you send it straight from the camcorder via HDMI. The JVC camcorder has no problem with this.

The workflow from camcorder to Blu-ray 3D is fairly simple, although it can be cumbersome in practice. If you have the HMZ1 (if I had it anyway), I'd shoot at 24p, pull the files into Edius to edit, export as a left/right MVC file and burn with menus to Blu-ray 3D in PowerDirector 10. Hopefully, the final version of Edius will include the ability to burn to 3D disc directly, at which point everything can be done there. Since I own the TD1, Edius converts my files from 60i to 24p, and it does it quite well. Other than that, my workflow is the same as the one I just outlined.

In the past, I've used MVCtoAVI to split the files, pulled them into FirstLight (Cineform Neo), converted them to their intermediate and then sent them to either Sony Vegas Pro or PowerDirector 10, for burning to Blu-ray 3D. The downside there is that the files become very large, and the process is time consuming and chews up hard drive space. I plan to stay with Edius, at least until Sony or Adobe supports the JVC files natively. If that happens I'll re-evaluate. Right now, though, I really like Edius and the much simplified workflow.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

looks like the EDIUS 3D software does the trick :) - still in beta/bug mode but its all goode

now i have to learn how to use it and make simple cuts haahahahah

thanks everyone, this software looks like a great tool - until Premiere gets on board and allows for proper 3D exporting :)

thank you everyone for the tips

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

So with TD1 we don't get this L-R extract utility?
Joseph: are you satisfied with the TD1 quality? Isn't grainy a little?
Is it better in lowlight than Sony TD10?
thx

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Anyone had results with Edius - PD10 - 3DBD with menus ??

Paul :-)

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Edius 3D works here great, even with 3d vision previewing.
Not tested the rendered files with PD10, because it is so slooow by me.
(have to upgrade to i5-quick sync)

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Hi.. some time has passed after the opening of this post... Still no MVC exporter (at least for Mac)....

I am doing some tests (shoot in MVC, edit twin HD and render SbS)...

SbS looks darker... Shall I just pull up the light? If so easy why don't TV sets like mine (Samsun 8000) that open both formats just turn luminance on in SbS mode ? I think there is more... Being less definition.. should I enhance contrast too (the 3D effect seems weaker) ? Also.. should I shoot with more parallax if I know I'll be rendering the final video in SbS mode?

What else are we loosing in 3D with half resolution ?

Being the 3D an effect relative to the fact that we have to eyes displayed horizontaly (one next to another) should I use the Top to Bottom method (like side by side but the two images are squashed verticali) ? At least I would have more horizontal resolution (that's where 3d happens no?).

But.. is it a "standard" as SbS ? My TV has it.. but what about the rest of the world?

Any other suggestion in improving SbS compared to the wonderfull MVC directly from the camera?

Thanks

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

You are talking about side-by-side-HALF, what is a standard. It is used by broadcast stations to deliver 3D content to the homes. But for sure with a slightly reduced resolution (rememeber: it is the half - but it is better then one would expect due to the fact that our brains generate a better picture when fusing the two pictures).

There is also side-by-side-FULL, but that is not a standard for HDTVs. But one can use the stereoscopic player to playback such footage from a PC to a HDTV or Beamter. At least for one location or home that can work fine, it can also be used for larger presentations. But it is hard to handover the film to somebody else if he does not have that equipment.

You know, sbs half can be played back with EVERY 2D-BD-Player, and all what one has to do is to switch the 3D-HDTV to sbs. You can also author that with every 2D authoring software. But you will not maintain the full resolution - for that you need MVC or sbs-FULL.

Your choice. :)

So what people tend to do is to produce for different presentation hardware. For example, if you use the stereoscopic player and two beamers, you should be aware that the frequence of the beamers should suit to the fps you capture with. So here it can be an advantage to shoot (in the PAL areas) with 25p, if you have a beamer that can be run since you can convert that to 50i in a nice way, but since it can suit nice to the beamers if it can be run in 50 Hz or 100 Hz. If you produce for 3D-BD, it is a good idea to shoot in 1080 24p.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

thanks... Certainly I'll produce in Full 3D (that means keeping the two streams full 1920)... The SbS option is just for export... what I was wondering is if the version with vertically squashed HDs on on top of the other is still "standard" (my TV has it) as I think it could work better (but maybe I am wrong).. and also I wanted confirmation that SbS is darker (or maybe is just my impression due to lack of resolution).
I got your other message about Sony Vegas.... I'll see.. I wanted to keep all in Mac because I use Mac.. but if a job comes in I'll have to get a PC + Vegas.... I can use bootcamp but is a mess.. Once PC antivirus killed my Mac files

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Theoretically, top-bottom-half is much better for passive monitors, compared with sbs-half, since that takes better into account how passive monitors and HDTV works. In the practice the difference is limited, but give it a try. There is another discussion about that:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/3d-stere...nterlaced.html


And if you are down to sbs-half after rendering, you will have lost half of the resolution. So a lot of people use that for the preview, but for final rendering they will try to maintain full resolution.

Yes, maybe a separate PC would be the best solution, even if I know that some people run Edius or Vegas also on a Mac. It is a shame that there is no MVC-Encoder for the Mac-world up to now - at least as far as I know not for the prosumer world where people are willing and able to spend some hundred U$ maybe.

Be aware that even with Vegas you are not able to generate 3D-BDs with menus. That is something that is supported by both Cyberlinks PD10 but also Magix Pro X4 to some extend, but this two solutions have other issues at the moment. But some people try to combine Vegas together with the PD10 for that reason - to be able to end up with some 3D-BD-menus without a U$ 20.000 solution. So maybe a workflow for you could also combine different NLEs, depending on what you wish to go.

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Marcello, I'll be boring and chip in with my usual comment at this point that I run Edius 6.5 on an iMac using Win7 running under Parallels 7 and it's fine. Not as clumsy as boot camp and you can keep an OSX interface for most of the rest of your work if you prefer. All files can be shared between OSX and Win7.

And of course, with respect to Wolfgang ;), you could also run Sony Vegas on a Mac in the same way.

Cheers

Neil

Re: MVC files to SIDE BY SIDE??!
 

Thanks to both.. I'll have to switch to PC if the story gets serious... At present I really would like just to view my editings in full MVC on my home 3DTV by Samsung.. that's all...We'll see what happens. Thanks again