DV Rack with HDV
 

DV Rack has intoduced an addition to work with. It will defenetely eliminate the dreaded drop out issue.

I learned from there site that DSE is a user of DV Rack.

DSE, Have you tried the HDV addition for the DV Rack?.

I'm not DSE but I just installed HDV Rack. It seems to work OK but I had a couple of questions I sent in to support. (I'm having a problem with a laptop to external firewire hard drive at the moment and haven't been using it as much as I'd like.)

Maheel,
Don't know whether DSE is frequenting the boards these days as he's out on the Sony HDV Roadshow, which is relevant because his presentation includes none other than the HDV PowerPak upgrade to DV Rack (as well as ULTRA 2 with it's new HDV support). In the event that he doesn't drop by for a while, I'd be happy to field any questions you may have.

That goes for you, too, Jerry. Our call volume has been higher than usual with the recent release of the two products mentioned above as well as a couple of others. Still, you'll probably hear back from our customer support desk shortly, but feel free to post your questions here either way. I'll warn you up front though that I probably be of little help when it comes to troubleshooting your problems with the external hdd--that kind of hardware question is much more up the alley of our guys on the phones.

My first problem with HDV Rack was not getting m2t files. Finally, I realized I had just been using the camera with down convert and set the camera for firewire HDV and the m2t showed up. The problem now seems to be my notebook. It is a Vaio but about 3 years old and an AMD chip and it is marginal. Everything seems very slow and I can't get the playback of the clip to work though it seems to be recording the clips. I think I'll install it on my edit computer and test it there - a 2.8 intel with 2 gig of ram and see how it works there. If the notebook has to be upgraded, I want to wait as long as possible with the new chips coming out.

Hi Mark,

Is monitoring HDV with HDVrack realtime (so 25 fps Pal and 30 fps NTSC)? And if so, what kind of laptop specs would you need at minimum? Like Jerry, I'd like to buy a new laptop that can handle hdvrack realtime, but I am not sure if those are already within reach...

You have control over the frame rate and resolution. In fact there are two settings related to resolution: MPEG Res (full or half) and Lines Displayed (Both, Odd, or Even.) Adjusting these three settings lets you "tune" display quality to get the most out of the system without maxing out the CPU, which results in artifacting and dropped frame. Note that these settings affect only what you see when monitoring; the full HDV stream is recorded regardless.

My understanding is that today's hardware is not capable of delivering full- framerate/full-res HDV performance. (We did not build a super-system to see what was possible.) With a 3.2 GHz processor, you should be able to get either full framerate or full-resolution--sounds like you'd opt for full framerate. Keep in mind that you'll scarcely be able to tell the difference between MPEG Resolution at Half vs. Full because the Field Monitor is much smaller than the HD frame. The difference will only become apparent when you use the zoom feature in the Field Monitor.

With something down in the 2 GHz neighborhood, you'll need to keep both framerate and resolution throttled back when recording. Our beta testers who ran with those settings reported that the results were entirely acceptable.

You specifically ask about monitoring HDV. If that's all you'll be doing (i.e., not recording), then adjusting these decompressor throttles is less critical because occasional artifacting and dropped frames aren't that big a deal--there's no recording to be compromised.

Thanks for all that, HOWEVER, I would like to know my capabilities so I'll know how to use it. Are you saying I can't record full HDV AND that I can't see clips recorded? Or can I record full HDV and set the playback of clips at a lesser resolution and/or framerate? If I could do the last, wonderful. If I can't trust the HDV that I'm capturing to hard drive, then I would only use the monitor feature and record avi or quicktime so I could play clips back for the talent, etc. My main interest is in feature length productions. So I guess my question is, "Can I trust getting good enough captures to use and have tape as a backup?" (as done with DV) or iare the recordings done by HDV the backup and/or the "playback at the shoot" footage.
Thanks.

I think it's clear what he's saying is, regardless of what you see on the monitor HDV Rack is saving the file without error.

The monitoring is just a preview of what you're getting.

If the preview is studdering because your system is too slow, you're still saving an uncorrupted HDV file.

And that for the purposes of previewing the incoming data stream, you can either choose, full speed video or full res video but no system is currently able to handle both. But the HDV stream you're saving on the drive is full res and fullspeed.

That about right Mark?

DV Rack always records the full video stream. Nothing that you do in DV Rack has any effect on what is recorded. However, if have the three throttle controls set such that your CPU ever reaches 100%, then data will be lost in the recorded clip--that can manifest itself as dropped frames or as artifacts within the image.

If you do a few test recording and play with different combinations of throttle settings while watching your CPU usage (through Task Manager), you will quickly determine which combination gives you safe CPU headroom. As long as you stick with a "safe" combination while recording, you can be confident that you'll get intact recordings.

I'm lobbying for the implementation of what we could term an auto-throttle that would monitor CPU usage--if it exceeds a threshold setting, then the program would automatically reduce one or more of the throttle settings. Think of it as overdraft protection. I'd be interested in whether customers would find that a desirable feature.

You write: "(I can) set the playback of clips at a lesser resolution and/or framerate." Just to be clear, the three throttles affect both monitoring of the live feed, regardless of whether you're recording or not, and playback of recorded clips.

Bottom line: With the throttles set correctly, you should have complete faith in HDV recordings from DV Rack.

Mi culpa. I didn't read your message well enough and skimmed over "the full HDV
stream is recorded regardless" the first time. There is another "problem" I forgot to mention, and from what you are saying the throttle is the problem there also -- there is a terrific lag time between what the camera is seeing and what the Rack monitor shows. A person can walk in, sit in a chair the camera is focused on and Rack will be showing an empty chair for several seconds before the person appears in the monitor.

I'll try resetting things and let you know how it goes.

If you're using an FX1 the firewire is about a 2 second delay, I think the Z1 has more of realtime firewire transfer.

Actually, they are the same, a 2 set of GOP behind. Due to the M2T decode, it's not realtime from any camera.
Although it seems a little squirrelly at first, you get used to it really fast, and other than doing a rack focus, it won't bother you, or rather, it doesn't bother me.

Ahh, I was going off this chart which probably came out before the camera was actually in hand.

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php

You are back DSE. How about sharing your views regarding the HDV power pack for DV Rack.

I love the HDV powerpak for HDV Rack. It takes a little getting used to in terms of the latency of the m2t stream, but unless Serious Magic partners with a laptop video card company to decode the stream via hardware....it'll always be there. Once you get past the latency, it's very useful. great for setting up the shot, great for field monitoring.

Can HDV Rack record audio from a separate/secondary firewire audio source, such as a Presonus Firebox, while simultaneosly recording the transport stream of the FX1/Z1 (all on the same PC)?

Similary, can HDV Rack record the transport stream for TWO FX1/Z1 cameras at the same time on a single PC? The FAQ at SeriousMagic mentions that only one firewire signal can be monitored at a time, but it's not clear if only one signal can be recorded at a time.

http://www.seriousmagic.com/help/faq...ck&faqid=1#q37

1 camera requires 1 laptop
2 cameras require 2 laptops
etc. Windows cannot split the m2t streams intelligently, therefore HDV Rack can't know which camera to get what signal from.

I've not tried recording to a disk drive AND to Rack at the same time in the HDV world, I don't believe it would be possible, but...even though Serious Magic says you can't record to a Firestore and to Rack at the same time (in DV) I've done it. They also say you can't stack a 1394 drive and DV Rack at the same time, but I've done that too. I think they're looking to reduce tech support calls; that's what I'd do.

No on both counts. We've had several requests for the ability to record a separate audio stream, so that will be a strong candidate to be among the features in the next major version we release.

While DV Rack does allow you to switch among as many cameras as you can connect to your computer (each on its own FireWire bus), you can record only one at a time, and you cannot switch sources while recording. We're looking into the feasibility of recording multiple video streams simultaneously, but from what I understand there are hardware limitations that make it impracticle with current hardware.

A very informative thread. DSE and Mark...as always, you guys rock. A quick question if I may. I was wondering what main differences between the HDV and SD versions as far as color correction goes? I monitor most of my HDV footage on location with my Sony SD PVM series monitors and I find that it's really accurate.

I downloaded the trial of DVRack and used the SD output while recording HDV to tape, and it also performed well for my purposes. I would only use Rack for monitor purposes, so I was curious as to the benefit of the HDV Power Pack for my specific use. If I don't have to deal with the latency issue, I would prefer not to. Thanks in advance.

Ed,
What do you mean by "color correction"? I normally think of color correction as affecting the recorded content or the output of an NLE, compositing program, etc. (But then I'm still a relative novice in the video field, so my concept of the term may be too narrow.) In any case, let's be clear that
DV Rack doesn't do anything that affects the recorded content.

I'm guessing that your question pertains to calibrating the Field Monitor to get accurate color representation & brightness. I don't have the experience with "real" hardware monitors to offer an opinion on how DV Rack compares, but I will point out that if you're hardware monitor is taking its feed from the camera's S-Video output, then it's showing you the uncompressed image; in this regard DV Rack is superior because it's showing you how the image looks after being compressed and decompressed just as it will be regardless of whether you're recording to tape or direct to disk.

Again, I'll leave it to others to assess the accuracy of color representation, and I'll be interested in their opinions.

Having seen HDVRack on a properly set up laptop, and having seen it next to a Sony Luma monitor which is essentially the same image, they're so close that it would be a little silly to say anything about it. Close enough that the video card in the laptop could easily be blamed for any gamma diffs.

I have a similar situation and would really appreciate a qualified answer to Ed's question.
Cheers,
Bruce

does the HDV Rack support the JVC GY-HD100U at 720p/24p???

I'm not sure I understand the question, which is why it wasn't answered (I assume) by either Mark or I.
HDV powerPak allows you to plug an HDV camcorder into the laptop and monitor it. Without the plugin, you can't monitor HDV.
The latency is a byproduct of the compressed format, as it reads off the camera, your laptop has to decode the stream. Therefore, you'll have latency of up to .5 seconds, depending on the speed of your laptop.
And yes, DVRack with HDV PowerPak supports the JVC format.

Mark,

I have the HDV rack and have just started to use it with the HD100 and the Sony Z1. So far so good, with a lot of testing to go.

Do you know if it will work with the new Canon H1 (another camera I'm very close to purchasing). I'm guessing that it will work very well in 1080/60i mode, similar to the Z1. The wildcard is their 24F format. It has me guessing to know if your stuff will jive with it, and record it with their intended 24p emulation.

Please advise and thanks much,

Shawn

24p modes and HDV PowerPak
 

Hi Guys,

As of today, the 24-frame recording modes on the newer JVC HD-100 and the new Canon XLH-1 have not been officially tested and qualified with the HDV PowerPak. The HDV PowerPak was designed to meet all specifications used in the HDV format, and the 24-frame modes were added later (JVC calls it "Pro-HD".)

Is Serious Magic seriously looking into DV50 and DV100 capture for camcorders like the HVX-200 as a alternative to P2/FS-100 or even FCP on Powerbooks?

Absolutely. I'd say it's not a matter of if but when. In fact, at Serious Magic we're currently in the process of evaluating all of our product lines towards the end of mapping out our R&D course & schedule. As one of the proponents for putting DV50/DV100 support at the top of the list, I'd encourage all of you who are eager for that to make yourselves heard by dropping a note to me at mmapes@seriousmagic.com. The more the merrier.

Hello.
Any idea when this will happen and what the upgrade process will be? I just bought a JVC HD100 and will be purchasing DV Rack/HD add on tomorrow.

Thank you.

I'm also wondering about compatibility with the JVC HD100 in 24P mode (HD of course). What works, what doesn't and what is the timeline for full functionality?

Mark,

That's great news! While I'm dreaming, let's talk to R&D about a portable system that can capture two or more streams of time code synced DV50/DV100 and 4-8 channels of 24/96 discreet audio via a small format fire wire based outboard mic pre mixer. Just image a laptop or portable box capable of such a feet. The engineer/director would have the luxury of two calibrated on-sreen monitors and a virtual (pro tools/logic pro style) audio mixer. Control rooms and video trucks would become a thing of the past! Imagine how much folks would pay for such a thing!!!!!!!!!

Let me strongly add my voice to the necessity of a separate audio stream recorded in sync with the video, but as a separate uncompressed file, with the ability to choose the audio Source.

Case in point: FX1/Z1 audio is not very good. So double system is needed. Double system = major inconvenience in post since one has to re-sync video with audio. Since audio did not start/stop when video recording did, it's hard to find the sync points.

Audio (in my case) is being recorded on a PC (same as used to capture live video stream!) via a very good quality mic preamp that outputs to PC via USB.

So... all the HDV rack has to do... is allow for USB sound source to be chosen as audio input... then record video as usual (including its audio data) PLUS a separate uncompressed audio file with the same name as video file, simultaneously. The system must provideo an accurate sync of audio and video, so later on, in NLE, all you have to do is manually adjust the audio file's beginning frame with video file's beginning frame to get a sync.

Possible?

Worse, HDV recording in Rack does not record accurate timecode from the camera (every clip starts at 0:00), so we lose a major tool one would use in syncing double-system sound in post. HDV recording in Rack is useless to me until it lays down camera time code. The general idea here is that timecode can be used to sync two devices or two sources (duh). For some reason this wasn't recognized by as important by SM when HDVRack was released. Of course it is extremely important for multicamera iso and double system.

Strangely, DV recordings in Rack do lay down camera time code accurately, but when we get to the more "pro" HDV format, we lose basic functionality.

I'm just very frustrated with this, and have been since November when I bought the upgrade only to find out that it's not really functional with timecode. So far, product and company do not meet my expectations.

DV Rack's lead developer tells me he has conquered the timecode issues. We have not yet run a build to test, but it's a good bet that a forthcoming update will clear that issue off the boards.

We've recently discussed adding support for multi-track audio, and it's safe to say that it will be coming. It's too early to set even a target for the version that will include that capability.

Hello Mark.
Thank you for addressing this issue. This has been the one thing that has held me back from purchasing. Could you give a time frame for this fix? Also, if I purchase DV Rack/HDV now, would the upgrade be free for the fix? This is in regard to the time code issue.

Thank you.

Has Serious Magic addressed the issue of HDV camera timecode in 2.0?

I'm happy to report that Sony Vegas now supports HDV camera timecode for firewire captures from the Z1, I've seen it work. Haven't yet tested out with other HDV cameras.

Would love to see this basic functionality in the HDV version of 2.0 - is it there?

This didn't make it into the 2.0 release, but will be in the update coming hopefully next week.

We are also adding a new recording mode for HDV - MPEG-2 Program Stream recording. These files are much more compatible with older NLE's. Plus, in MPG mode, we are able to support HDV time-lapse, stop-motion, and more. This should also be a boon to FCP editors, since Final Cut won't read native M2T files.

HDV - still no camera timecode!
 

Karl, I'm very disappointed in Serious Magic's apparent lack of dedication to their existing customers. Resolution of the HDV timecode issue was positioned to customers as something to be included in an update release of 1.x, and free.

Now, SM is encouraging upgrade to 2.x, and you are suggesting that there will be future update release of 2.x with working HDV timecode.

Do you see the credibility issue here? You only have to read 2 messages up in this thread to to see another SM rep writing that the issue was resolved in February! What happened to inclusion in the 1.2 release?

My story is this:
I purchased the HDV powerpack in Nov. 2005 for an upcoming hdv shoot that involved double-system sound.

Testing revealed that camera timecode was not recorded by DVRack in HDV... while standard def timecode has always functioned correctly.

I called a tech support person, who insisted that it did work, I then spun my wheels through several more rounds of testing, but I couldn't make it work, and I had to take a different approach for the project.

Since that time, in various telephone calls and forum postings I've been told by SM representatives that timecode doesn't exist in a firewire hdv stream, it does exist but in various places depending on camcorder manufacturer, the developer was off working on other SM products but would get to it "next week", and finally, that SM was aware of the issue and that a fix would be included in v1.2 (released late spring, as I recall).

Here we are, 10 months later, after an update release and a new version release, and no fix - but another soft committment that it'll happen next week.

Until this issue is resolved HDV in DVRack offers an incomplete solution for shoots involving double-system sound or multiple cameras, and some real obstacles to workflow. It doesn't work as well as DV. It does not deliver on the promise of enhanced workflow with hard-drive recording in the field.

Having each clip start at TC 0:00 does not support logging, double system sound, or multicamera shoots. Timecode is a foundational tool important in video production and workflow since the beginning of computer-aided editing in the early 1970s.

I'm trying to be restrained in this post, but please be aware that I am extremely frustrated with SM's initial release of an incomplete HDV HD recorder, lack of performance in resolving the issue, and inconsistency in their communications about the product and release plans.

I have no recollection of what derailed the HDV timecode support between Feb. when I posted that a fix was in works and late June when the patch was released--this issue slipped off my radar in the course of bouncing between several projects.

What I can assure you is that your post a week ago prompted DV Rack's lead developer to dig back into HDV timecode. He tells me he has the Sony cams covered. I'm nearly certain that I confirmed the fix, but I'll need to doublecheck that on Monday. We're down to a small handful of minor issues, so this patch should be available next week.

You cite several statements from our technical support personnel. With the exception of the assertion that DV Rack already supported HDV timecode, all of those statements reflected what we knew at the time. Since we were clearly on the learning curve, those statements should have been framed in terms of "as we understand things..." rather than as statements of absolute fact. To their credit, a few of the guys on the tech support crew took the initiative to research the matter to determine whether in fact there was timecode in the HDV stream. I distinctly recall them reporting that two different authorities had confirmed that no timecode existed in the data stream that was sent out over the Firewire.

If you feel that it unfair that an upgrade is required to get the forthcoming Sony HDV timecode support (and you wouldn't have bought the upgrade on its other merits anyway), then I encourage you to contact our customer support desk to discuss an acceptable solution.

Thank you for bringing this matter back to our attention.

Hi Seth, (and others using HDV,)

At this point, there are 3 main flavors of HDV, and Sony is about to add a 4th. Just to be clear, I need to define them here:

720p/30p, recorded on JVC HD-1 or HD-10. Referred to here as "720p".

720p/30p or 24p, recorded on JVC HD-100 (or variant.) Referred to here as "ProHD 720."

1080i recorded on Sony or Canon cameras, referred to here as "1080i."

Sony is about to release a 1080p camera as well.


Now, regarding timecode - The original JVC 720p implentation does not output timecode out the FireWire port. Recording direct from an HD-1 or HD-10 will not include timecode information. This has been confirmed by JVC.

The ProHD 720 format recorded by the HD-100 and its variants does contain timecode.

The 1080i format also contains timecode, but very few NLE's have been able to read it. Vegas 7 is one of the few. DV Rack has always recorded the clips with timecode data, but it did not display the timecode until very recently. Our engineer has addressed that issue, and now the timecode data in a 1080i M2T file is displayed in DV Rack 2.1, which should ship in the next day or so.

According to a couple of sources, the timecode data in 1080i can also be off by as much as 15 frames (1 GOP) because it is only stored for the I-frames. I have not confirmed this yet with Sony, but I've heard it from several sources in the industry.