Video Tearing challenge at DVinfo.net

Paul Newman · May 10th, 2010, 02:21 AM

I've rumbled on about this for ages with many types of video card (all NVidia) many types of NLE (Edius is the cleanest) but have still to find some way to produce clean HD output from PremierePro onto an external monitor via HDMI from an NVidia graphics card.

This explains the issue: Screen tearing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm now running CS5 with GTX285 as recommended by Adobe and have exactly the same errors as always, horizontal tearing on panning or high movement shots - useless for serious editing.

Yes all V-Sync tests have been done, refresh rates are correct etc etc - tested with HD CRT monitor via component output, HDMI to Samsung HD native LCD, everything is always the same, regardless of computer system used, NLE software used or graphics card/ monitor combination.

Who has an HDMI HD output that is clean? what monitor/card/ do you have, does it work with interlaced footage on fast pans without tearing?

Is this only a European 50hz problem?

I really want to get to the bottom of this, it is a well documented problem with seemingly no real fix, every answer says "fiddle with the v sync" or "its a refresh rate problem"

So, who knows the answer? and who has a perfect output from a graphics card with no tearing?

good hunting

Paul

Paul Newman · May 11th, 2010, 07:05 AM

What an ear shattering response! so this means either we all have this problem and just live with it or no one except me has it, or can see it. So even with a $6000 FX5800 with HD SDI output I bet it's the same jittery old picture!

C'mon someone must have it running correctly or or we have to admit to having been seriously hoodwinked by Adobe and Nvidia to boot. I mean a $200 dollar grass valley card gives awsome realtime flawless output from Edius, what gives? is it that Premiere really is just an amateur package in disguise?

....or where's the disclaimer that states "Premiere Pro CS5 used in conjunction with the recomended Nvidia graphics cards and the Mercury Playback Engine can be expected to produce poor output signals, unsuitable for serious viewing or recording on, or to, any external device"

Paul

Steve Kalle · May 12th, 2010, 12:52 AM

I only shoot progressive and have not seen any sort of tearing. Maybe its the way Premiere handles 50i.

I just shot a soccer match with lots of fast camera movement. I will check in CS4 and CS5 and report back. And I'm using a GTX 275 modified to work with MPE acceleration.

Just tested in Premiere CS5 with 720 60p video at 720p and scaled to 1080 with no problems.

Can you use a video camera to record your screen so we can see what you are seeing? Or I wonder if screen capture software would work.

Paul Newman · May 12th, 2010, 03:27 AM

Hi Steve,

Are you outputting one side of your GTX to external full screen playback? I'll also try to capture the effect, I'll probably have to film it. I get the same problems with RED footage (progressive) EX1 footage (prog and intl.) DV absolutely everything, regardless of Video card, computer set up or monitor type - it is always present to a greater or lesser degree.

I have a horrible feeling that this may be a PAL area issue where the GPU cannot or will not correctly sync to 50hz monitoring, that said, I can't believe the entire user base in Europe is putting up with this, if only there was a physical "entity" of Nvidia/Adobe in the UK to demonstrate or test this with - it's so hard by email/forum. The only hope is at an exhibition where everything is so well "managed" that these problems are often hidden.

Paul

Steve Kalle · May 12th, 2010, 11:41 AM

Paul, I just tried playback to my Eizo CG243W 1920x1200 LCD via DVI and using the same soccer footage (720/60p) - no problemo.

Anyway you can provide me with some PAL clips that are giving you problems?

I will make you a deal: I will help find/fix your problem, and you meet me at Amnesia in Ibiza someday :p ( I know you said that you are in London but how can you resist going back)

Roger Keay · May 12th, 2010, 02:17 PM

I shoot videos of trains that results in a lot of horizontal motion in the image. I use an ATI based card rather than Nvidia but I think I see artifacts similar to the ones you describe as screen tearing. A typical shot of a train crossing the screen quickly produces a double image of the moving train cars. The source footage is 60 field interlaced (HDV camera). The display controller seems to take two fields and jam them together into a progressive frame without any motion compensation. Horizontal movement of the train cars in the 1/60 of a second between the upper and lower field results in an overlap of two different images which makes the moving portions flicker. The portions of the image where the cars do not overlap are ghostlike while the non-moving portions of the image are normal. The overall effect is very annoying.

I spent a lot of time trying to find a solution to the problem. There does not appear to be any means of setting the video card software or the editing program to convert a single field to a frame rather than combine two fields into a frame. The interlaced to progressive conversion explains why progressive sources like 720p60 do not suffer this problem.

I installed a Black Magic Design Intensity Pro card with an HDMI output in the computer to feed the HTDV set that I use as a monitor. If I use their MJPEG codec preset in a project then I can view the timeline without the tearing problem. The BMD card outputs 1920*1080i60 and conversion from interlaced to progressive occurs in the HDTV monitor so the result is the same as a viewer would see from a DVD or Blu-Ray provided that an interlaced to progressive format change did not occur while mastering the disc.

The BMD solution only half works for me because I like to use Cineform intermediate. Using a Cineform 1080i timeline, I can still preview HDV footage on the BMD card and HDTV monitor from inside PP CS4. Unfortunately, I cannot play the Cineform timeline or watch Cineform clips in the preview monitor. The Cineform forum includes comments that suggest BMD might develop drivers for their products that would allow the Intensity card to play the timeline. I guess we will see.

Perhaps these comments will provide some insight into your problem.

Nik Skjoth · May 14th, 2010, 02:57 AM

Nvidia GTX 260 and GT8800 through HDMI to a samsung 32 lcd, no tearing...

However.. I remember having some cable/adapter problems in the begining.. Went to Monacor and bought a direct DVI to HDMI cable, no adapter... And besides giving me a better signal I had a bonus of being able to play copy protected DVD's on my screen as well, which the regular consumer cable did not allow.

Ryan Koo · September 9th, 2010, 04:41 PM

I have the same problem, GTX 285 on a Mac. Not outputting to a separate monitor, but it ruins watching video with the Program viewer maximized. Please share if you find a solution!

May 10th, 2010, 02:21 AM	#1
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	Video Tearing challenge I've rumbled on about this for ages with many types of video card (all NVidia) many types of NLE (Edius is the cleanest) but have still to find some way to produce clean HD output from PremierePro onto an external monitor via HDMI from an NVidia graphics card. This explains the issue: Screen tearing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'm now running CS5 with GTX285 as recommended by Adobe and have exactly the same errors as always, horizontal tearing on panning or high movement shots - useless for serious editing. Yes all V-Sync tests have been done, refresh rates are correct etc etc - tested with HD CRT monitor via component output, HDMI to Samsung HD native LCD, everything is always the same, regardless of computer system used, NLE software used or graphics card/ monitor combination. Who has an HDMI HD output that is clean? what monitor/card/ do you have, does it work with interlaced footage on fast pans without tearing? Is this only a European 50hz problem? I really want to get to the bottom of this, it is a well documented problem with seemingly no real fix, every answer says "fiddle with the v sync" or "its a refresh rate problem" So, who knows the answer? and who has a perfect output from a graphics card with no tearing? good hunting Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

May 11th, 2010, 07:05 AM	#2
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	What an ear shattering response! so this means either we all have this problem and just live with it or no one except me has it, or can see it. So even with a $6000 FX5800 with HD SDI output I bet it's the same jittery old picture! C'mon someone must have it running correctly or or we have to admit to having been seriously hoodwinked by Adobe and Nvidia to boot. I mean a $200 dollar grass valley card gives awsome realtime flawless output from Edius, what gives? is it that Premiere really is just an amateur package in disguise? ....or where's the disclaimer that states "Premiere Pro CS5 used in conjunction with the recomended Nvidia graphics cards and the Mercury Playback Engine can be expected to produce poor output signals, unsuitable for serious viewing or recording on, or to, any external device" Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

May 12th, 2010, 03:27 AM	#4
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	Hi Steve, Are you outputting one side of your GTX to external full screen playback? I'll also try to capture the effect, I'll probably have to film it. I get the same problems with RED footage (progressive) EX1 footage (prog and intl.) DV absolutely everything, regardless of Video card, computer set up or monitor type - it is always present to a greater or lesser degree. I have a horrible feeling that this may be a PAL area issue where the GPU cannot or will not correctly sync to 50hz monitoring, that said, I can't believe the entire user base in Europe is putting up with this, if only there was a physical "entity" of Nvidia/Adobe in the UK to demonstrate or test this with - it's so hard by email/forum. The only hope is at an exhibition where everything is so well "managed" that these problems are often hidden. Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

May 12th, 2010, 12:52 AM	#3
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	I only shoot progressive and have not seen any sort of tearing. Maybe its the way Premiere handles 50i. I just shot a soccer match with lots of fast camera movement. I will check in CS4 and CS5 and report back. And I'm using a GTX 275 modified to work with MPE acceleration. Just tested in Premiere CS5 with 720 60p video at 720p and scaled to 1080 with no problems. Can you use a video camera to record your screen so we can see what you are seeing? Or I wonder if screen capture software would work.

May 12th, 2010, 11:41 AM	#5
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Paul, I just tried playback to my Eizo CG243W 1920x1200 LCD via DVI and using the same soccer footage (720/60p) - no problemo. Anyway you can provide me with some PAL clips that are giving you problems? I will make you a deal: I will help find/fix your problem, and you meet me at Amnesia in Ibiza someday :p ( I know you said that you are in London but how can you resist going back)

May 12th, 2010, 02:17 PM	#6
Roger Keay Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Toronto Canada Posts: 75	I shoot videos of trains that results in a lot of horizontal motion in the image. I use an ATI based card rather than Nvidia but I think I see artifacts similar to the ones you describe as screen tearing. A typical shot of a train crossing the screen quickly produces a double image of the moving train cars. The source footage is 60 field interlaced (HDV camera). The display controller seems to take two fields and jam them together into a progressive frame without any motion compensation. Horizontal movement of the train cars in the 1/60 of a second between the upper and lower field results in an overlap of two different images which makes the moving portions flicker. The portions of the image where the cars do not overlap are ghostlike while the non-moving portions of the image are normal. The overall effect is very annoying. I spent a lot of time trying to find a solution to the problem. There does not appear to be any means of setting the video card software or the editing program to convert a single field to a frame rather than combine two fields into a frame. The interlaced to progressive conversion explains why progressive sources like 720p60 do not suffer this problem. I installed a Black Magic Design Intensity Pro card with an HDMI output in the computer to feed the HTDV set that I use as a monitor. If I use their MJPEG codec preset in a project then I can view the timeline without the tearing problem. The BMD card outputs 1920*1080i60 and conversion from interlaced to progressive occurs in the HDTV monitor so the result is the same as a viewer would see from a DVD or Blu-Ray provided that an interlaced to progressive format change did not occur while mastering the disc. The BMD solution only half works for me because I like to use Cineform intermediate. Using a Cineform 1080i timeline, I can still preview HDV footage on the BMD card and HDTV monitor from inside PP CS4. Unfortunately, I cannot play the Cineform timeline or watch Cineform clips in the preview monitor. The Cineform forum includes comments that suggest BMD might develop drivers for their products that would allow the Intensity card to play the timeline. I guess we will see. Perhaps these comments will provide some insight into your problem.

May 14th, 2010, 02:57 AM	#7
Nik Skjoth Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cph Denmark Posts: 136	Nvidia GTX 260 and GT8800 through HDMI to a samsung 32 lcd, no tearing... However.. I remember having some cable/adapter problems in the begining.. Went to Monacor and bought a direct DVI to HDMI cable, no adapter... And besides giving me a better signal I had a bonus of being able to play copy protected DVD's on my screen as well, which the regular consumer cable did not allow.

September 9th, 2010, 04:41 PM	#8
Ryan Koo Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 92	I have the same problem, GTX 285 on a Mac. Not outputting to a separate monitor, but it ruins watching video with the Program viewer maximized. Please share if you find a solution!