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-   -   HDV still choppy in Pro 2.0 with new processor (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/adobe-creative-suite/80156-hdv-still-choppy-pro-2-0-new-processor.html)

Marty Hudzik November 21st, 2006 10:24 PM

HDV still choppy in Pro 2.0 with new processor
 
Okay. So I mostly edit using Cineform. However I recently shot a wedding in HDV and decided that the quality was good enough without going to cineform. I had a P4 3 GHZ HT with 2 gig of ram and no raid. just IDE drives. After capturing I could edit but the playback was very choppy and not smooth with no effects.

So I build a new PC. New 2.8 GHZ CORE2 Duo with 2 gigs of ram and 4 raided SATA II drives. This system is off the charts.

Yet HDV playback from the PPRO 2.0 is only marginally better. PReview out of the component connections to an HDTV is still way too choppy. Is PPRO that big of a dog? I have virtually the fastest PC on the market and it still cannot play HDV smoothly? This is with no effects applied. Straight m2t file on the timeline?

WTF? Anyone else seeing this? Any advice? Cineform is smooth but I don't want to have have to convert everything all the time when the projects don't necessarily call for that quality.

Thanks!

Deke Ryland November 22nd, 2006 08:15 AM

Hey Marty, I know very little about how your computer should be performing with those specs, however, I would recommend just rendering any unrendered parts of your timeline and with your machine, you should have absolutely no trouble getting a realtime playback of any HDV content. Let us know how it works.

Bill Ravens November 22nd, 2006 08:19 AM

I really don't intend to insult anyone with this reply, but, it seems to me PP2 is just as problemmatic as premiere ever was. That's the reason I switched to vegas, years ago. Vegas is reliable and dependable. It's never let me down. Seems like this website is chock full of people with problems with PP2.

Marty Hudzik November 22nd, 2006 09:28 AM

Premiere Pro has native support for HDV 1080i. When I drop clips on the timeline they do not need to render....so I cannot force it to render. These are clips that are pure 1080i .m2t files with no effects applied thus premiere should not touch them. The concept here is that if I am not applying effects or transitions it should not "need" to re-render anything, thus ensuring no degradation in the quality due to multiple mpg compression passes. If I need to do a lot of color correction and effects I would obviously use cineform for this whic by the way, will play smooth. I am aware that HDV is a processor hog and requires a fast machine to play smooth.....but I have one of the fastest PC processors available and it is still choppy.

Is anyone getting smooth playback to external monitor? I am using a Geforce 7600 and the component out is connected to an HDTV. Premiere Pro 2.0 has the ability to display the output to a secondary monitor full screen. This is what I am doing.

Thanks!

Wade Spencer November 22nd, 2006 09:39 AM

1 Attachment(s)
What is your quality set on?

2 gb really isn't that over the top on RAM...what speed is it?

Ben Winter November 22nd, 2006 09:42 AM

How are the SATA drives raided together?

And Wade, unless you're using a 64 bit version of Windows like Vista, nothing over 3 gigs will be recognized anyway.

I have virtually the same system you do and Ppro doesn't run that much faster. I had issues with a lot of things originally when I raided them together using a raid 5. They should be Raid 0.

Wade Spencer November 22nd, 2006 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Winter
And Wade, unless you're using a 64 bit version of Windows like Vista, nothing over 3 gigs will be recognized anyway.

Ahhh..thanks Ben :-)

Marty Hudzik November 22nd, 2006 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Winter
How are the SATA drives raided together?

And Wade, unless you're using a 64 bit version of Windows like Vista, nothing over 3 gigs will be recognized anyway.

I have virtually the same system you do and Ppro doesn't run that much faster. I had issues with a lot of things originally when I raided them together using a raid 5. They should be Raid 0.

Raid 0. 2 250GB WD SATA II drives with 16MB cache each. FWIW the performance is the same when streaming from my single IDE drive also. So I don't think it is a hard drive throughput issue.

The CPU is a Core2 Duo running at 2.8 GHZ. When streaming in Premiere I checked task manager and it is only at or below 50% utilization. So the CPU is not the bottle neck.

I have tried the quality setting both ways and it makes no difference. The choppiness is there either way.

Any other ideas?

Marty Hudzik November 22nd, 2006 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wade Spencer
What is your quality set on?

2 gb really isn't that over the top on RAM...what speed is it?

800 MHZ dual Channel DDR2

Chris Barcellos November 22nd, 2006 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens
I really don't intend to insult anyone with this reply, but, it seems to me PP2 is just as problemmatic as premiere ever was. That's the reason I switched to vegas, years ago. Vegas is reliable and dependable. It's never let me down. Seems like this website is chock full of people with problems with PP2.

Vegas does no better at rendering or previewing full quality HDV. In fact, I think it may be worse. I have both editors full blown, and the only thing I can say about a blanket statement you are making here is that you are trying to create a problem. And if you switched to Vegas years ago, how would you know what was happening with Premiere 2.0 now.

Fact is that Vegas appears to me in my Dual Processor setup, to render HDV slower than Premiere. Both will work with intermediate file systems like Cineform, for improved speed and editing capabilities.

I have been working with Vegas more, recently, but I still like the user interface in Premiere, as it is something I have been accustomed to as a long time user.

Ben Winter November 22nd, 2006 02:09 PM

Check your virtual memory pagefile settings. Premiere uses a ton of VM compared to hardware memory (of which it uses considerably less, arrgh!) so make sure there's only one large pagefile on your RAID.

Deke Ryland November 22nd, 2006 04:14 PM

I can honestly say something is amiss with your system and that it is certainly not PP2.0 that is causing the shaky playback. I have a much lesser system that when loading an mpeg or .m2t file into a timeline for the first time and played back in entirety, has absolutely NO hiccups and the playback is flawless. Now add some color correction and you will then need to re-render. But like you said, the untouched HDV placed in the timeline should playback silky smooth, especially on your machine. I wish I could give you some help on what is causing your problem... but I can assure you it is not Premiere Pro. My guess would be a virus/spyware. I have a rather deep understanding of spyware (used to work in the biz) and I always tell people that 95% of spyware goes undetected by even the top spyware/virus scanners. So just because your virus scan may not detect anything... by all means does not mean you are clean. If all your other apps are acting snappy... then you probably don't have any infections.

Marty Hudzik November 22nd, 2006 05:50 PM

Just built this system. Clean install. Haven't been on the net much other than to get a few updates and drivers.

Are you previeweing your HD clips out to an HDTV via a component feed? Maybe that is the difference here.....I don't know. But I was expecting something more smooth than this.

Ben Winter November 22nd, 2006 06:15 PM

What kind of graphics card do you have?

Steven Gotz November 22nd, 2006 09:54 PM

Perhaps it is a problem that stems from showing the video full screen on a second monitor. My system runs native HDV at full speed with no chop at all. I have a shot of the Dumbo ride at Disney's Magic Kingdom in Florida, so I would notice chop.

http://www.stevengotz.com/pc.htm

Floris van Eck November 23rd, 2006 03:10 AM

I would test another NLE like Vegas (trial) and then see if the same problems occur. If not, I doubt it could be your system. I have a Intel Core 2 DUO 2.4Ghz, 2GB PC6400, GeForce 7900GS and 3x a Seagate Barrucada 320GB (of which 2 are in a RAID 0 setup and one is a system disk).
And for me, the program is fast without any hiccups and slowdown.

Is Premiere on the same disk as where your project (files) are located?

Marty Hudzik November 23rd, 2006 11:12 AM

It turns out this is a problem only when you tell Premiere Pro to display the output full screen to a second or third monitor. If I disable this feature and stretch Premiere Pro manual across both monitors and resize the preview window to fill most of the second screen it plays fine. Smooth as silk.

So can someone test and verify that the full screen preview is choppy for them also? You need to have at least 2 monitors hooked up. Go into Premiere settings and choose general and then playback settings.

There is an option for full screen preview and you can choose which of your monitors you'd like to show you project on full screen. Select one (preferably not your main one as it would obscure your timeline). Exit. Now when scrubbing or previewing see if it plays smoothly. Thanks!

Oh yeah....Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Chris Barcellos November 23rd, 2006 12:07 PM

Works for me
 
Marty:

Works for me. I set it up as you indicated, and I had smooth playback by dropping an unedited m2t file on the time line. I have a 256 mgb generic video card (ATI X700), and played it off of a 7200 rpm harddrive, connected by IDE. I have a 3800+ Dual Core AMD motherboard set up, self built as with yours. Sounds to me like you have a video card issue (download latest drivers), or perhaps you need to be sure, since you just built the system, that you have latest bios for the board, and have installed the motherboard to the system using the motherboard install disk.

I don't think you indicated what the system you built had on board....

Marty Hudzik November 23rd, 2006 01:08 PM

NVIDIA 7600GS 256MB PCI-X LAtest drivers
Just updated the bios to the DFI Motherboard.

The only other thing is that I have 2 video cards in my system. One drives the LCD screen and feed the HDTV via the component out and the other feeds the 2nd LCD screen for my dual desktop. So I actually have 3 displays simultaneously.

Hmmm......wonder what could be causing this. Maybe I'll try an ATI card. What a pain this stuff is! I haven't built a new PC in 3 years! Arghh!

Thanks.

Marty

Chris Barcellos November 23rd, 2006 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik
NVIDIA 7600GS 256MB PCI-X LAtest drivers
Just updated the bios to the DFI Motherboard.

The only other thing is that I have 2 video cards in my system. One drives the LCD screen and feed the HDTV via the component out and the other feeds the 2nd LCD screen for my dual desktop. So I actually have 3 displays simultaneously.

Hmmm......wonder what could be causing this. Maybe I'll try an ATI card. What a pain this stuff is! I haven't built a new PC in 3 years! Arghh!

Thanks.

Marty

What processor ? Remember, playing HDV is processor intensive, as well as putting more on the video card...

Marty Hudzik November 23rd, 2006 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos
What processor ? Remember, playing HDV is processor intensive, as well as putting more on the video card...

Core 2 DUO @ 2.8 GHZ.

When streaming from timeline CPU utilizations is less than 50%. I doubt that is it.

Lars Siden November 24th, 2006 06:49 AM

I've always had these kinds of problems with premiere - running DV & HD.

Sometimes it stutters and chops - and sometimes after a while everything works perfect and smooth. I've never been able to pinpoint the problem. However - often the problem goes away when I restart PPro(without rebooting the computer)

// Lazze

Pete Bauer November 24th, 2006 10:00 PM

Marty,

Have you by any chance had any scopes displayed in PPro?

I don't know if this will help your particular problem, but I was playing a 30F clip in full screen on display #2, while running both the "Source Monitor" and "Program Monitor" windows on display #1. It ran smooth as silk while displaying composite video on the active window (either the Source Monitor or Program Monitor window) on display #1, but when the active window was switched to show any/all scopes rather than composite video, it caused the full screen image on display #2 to stutter severely. It looks like the scopes in the Source Monitor or Program Monitor windows will bring PPro to its knees because they are trying to keep up in real time.

I think a partial work-around for scopes is to create a new reference monitor and put your scopes in there, making sure that "Gang to Program Monitor" is checked in the ref monitor's menu. The scopes won't update while the timeline is playing, but will automatically refresh whenever you pause, and are live for scrubbing. And as far as I can see, no way to use a ref monitor to do scopes on the the source; only the program. No issue for me, but maybe it'll bother someone else's workflow.

Fingers crossed that this solves the stutter riddle. But even if not, it is good to know about this limitation.

EDIT: No, don't go buy a new video card. nVidia is specifically partnered with Adobe in their OpenHD program, and I'm seeing smooth playback with a 7800GTX in an AMD X2 4800+.

Marty Hudzik November 25th, 2006 09:53 AM

Well I picked up an ATI Radeon 1950 Card and installed it. The stutter is now gone completely on full screen playback! Yay!

However tried to install my ATIRadeon 9250 PCI card also to drive my 2nd LCD desktop monitor and the darn PC will not boot at all! I have had 2 ATI cards in my older PC for almost a year....an agp and a PCI. Now I have a PCI-X and and a PCI and it will not work! I have tried every setting in the bios and switching cards around inside the PC to see if that would help and nothing works. So I am back to having smoth playback on my HDTV but I can only use 1 desktop monitor.

Frustrating! I bought the ATI because I knew I already had a good working ATI PCI that is "supposed" to be compatible with it. Now I may be forced to buy a "newer" ATI PCI-X card to pair with it! ANd who knows if that will work! Argh! Will it never end?

The bottom line is I have 2 Nvidia PCI-X cards that will work together to allow me to have 3 displays simultaneously. But the playback from Premiere is choppy.

The ATI card will give me great playback but I can't seem to get 3 displays to work. The PC just doesn't want to boot with an extra PCI card in there.

I'll let you know how it all turns out in the end!

Thanks!

Matthew Nayman November 25th, 2006 10:12 AM

Hey Marty, this is good I checked this out cause I was planing the EXACT same setup with 2 7600's

However, have yo utried the HDTV through an HDMI-DVI connection as a monitor?

Ben Winter November 25th, 2006 11:33 AM

Why don't you just buy one graphics card that's meant for video editing and drives three displays like a Matrox card? I have a Parhelia APVe and use dual screens with another component out to an HDTV I use for previewing and it works great.

Pete Bauer November 25th, 2006 12:01 PM

Marty,

Do you mean your motherboard and cards are long-in-the-tooth PCI-X or the newer industry standard PCIe (also written PCI-E)?

Is this a "latest, greatest" PCIe motherboard that is specifically advertised as supporting Core 2 Duo, or an older LGA 775? An "older" board could pose limitations...might help others help you to know the exact model number of your motherboard and other components.

No PPro vectorscopes or waveform scopes being displayed?

Matthew Nayman November 25th, 2006 04:58 PM

Yeah, I could use this information. My comp has to go in this week, as I just bought the XHA1. I am planning on an Asus SLI board and 2 7600 GT's which are PCIe

Ben: How much is a matrox card? Compaible with all NLEs?

Deke Ryland November 25th, 2006 06:08 PM

I think you guys are placing WAY too much emphasis on the video card for editting in Premiere Pro. A $150 video card will do you just as good as a professional $1k card within Premiere. The ability to playback smoothly, even across dual monitors, has all to do with the cpu/HDDs/RAM... and barely anything to do with the video card. Now, I never shoot interlaced footage, so I don't know if video cards are taxed with any de-interlacing you guys might be doing, but if you are shooting progressive like me, it is all about the CPU. I have a cheap video card and the new quad-core and it runs flawlessly.

Pete Bauer November 25th, 2006 10:45 PM

I'm jealous -- I'm ready to build a quad core, but the processor isn't in stock at my usual vendors yet.

I agree that having a latest, greatest video card isn't necessary to play a simple timeline even in HDV, but since Adobe specifically says they make use of OpenGL shaders and such, having a recent, fast card is probably of some benefit for complex work, especially in AE (try doing the Timewarp effect in HD if you want to see your system work for a living!). Supposedly the extra OpenGL capability is what makes the nVidia Quadro line so good for editing and compositing.

In any case, my point wasn't about the video card per se, but Marty's mention of the almost-defunct PCI-X made me wonder whether he's piecing together a system with a mix of old and new parts, which would open the door for all manner of incompatibilities and bottlenecks.

Also, we still don't know if Marty had a vector/waveform scope open. At least on my system, it happens. That reminds me...would appreciate if others would check to see if they get the same stutter when a scope is up as I described earlier?

Marty Hudzik November 26th, 2006 01:35 AM

No scope of any kind. Sorry I was vague but this computer is using all new parts. Brand new Intel 975 motherboard and brand new core2 duo. Brand new Ati radeon PCI-E and Nvidia PCI-E cards. I did try an older PCI Radeon card as a 2nd graphics card but it will not work. I am not looking for a power house as far as graphics go.

I was looking to get a card that drove 2 displays and an HDTV and still have decent 3d for apps that call for it. This card does not exist in the sub $300 market. I opted for a main card to drive one LCD and the HDTV and the other lower end card to drive the 2nd LCD.

My problem comes from stuttering due to a video card problem. It should playback smooth but no matter what I do I get stutter on HDTV unless I use an ATI and in that case I cannot get 2 cards to play together inside the PC.

I will post my finding tomorrow as I am testing a new setup.

Peace!

Pete Bauer November 26th, 2006 06:49 AM

A new Core 2 Duo system should not have any trouble running a smooth full-screen 2nd monitor display...certainly a lot of us have lesser systems that do it fine. So yeah, unfortunately it does sound like the wild card is having two video cards in the system. I'm afraid I can't be of any help on that.

Has anyone else been able to get PCIe and PCI to play nice together on a PPro editing box as Marty is trying to do?

Matthew Nayman November 26th, 2006 07:08 AM

I am trying to get the 2-card thing going as well, because most cards only have 2 DVI outs and then an HD TV out, but I have heard the HDTV is terrible so I want to run my HDTV over DVI-HDMI as a third monitor. However, if I am hearing the HDTV out isnt too bad (no interlacing artifacts and such) I might change my mind.

Are you going to try a 2nd 1950 Marty?

Marty Hudzik November 26th, 2006 01:56 PM

I think I stumbled onto a solution for the moment but as always it entails a little workaround.

First, I can say that I never got 2 ATI cards to work together. I did "not" try 2 X1950 cards though. These are super expensive cards and since I really only need the 2nd card to drive a single LCD it would have been overkill. But the X1950 would not work with a 9250 PCI card or a x300SE PCI express card.

So I am back to the Nvidia card for the moment. All 2 displays are working but I am seeing stuttering only when playing back to the HDTV through the component out. I am using a 7900 Nvidia card now so it is a more powerful card. I stumbled onto a setting that I had not seen before in the control panel where I forced the output of the Component to 720P instead of 1080i and the stuttering is gone completely. However I can see a loss of resolution versus the 1080i mode.

It does not stutter when playing to the 2nd LCD which is 1680x1050 res.

This is where I am at. My HDTV does not do DVI connection so I am forced to use the component out.

Can anyone else try previewing out through the component HD at 1080i and see if it is stutter free?

Thanks!

Hoping that I am finally starting to get somewhere.

Don Blish November 26th, 2006 05:15 PM

Why not Cineform for all projects?
 
If you use the Cineform preset, the Cineform intermediate is created in background while capturing so there is no "extra step" (though the file is 3X larger). I also have a dual-core machine (P4 840 EE, so hyperthreaded) and have very smooth preview/playback.

I am using the Matrox Parhelia APVe video card with the desktop connected DVI and my second 1050x1680 panel connected analog/component HD.

I only see 100% CPU utilization on capturing and on long render-outs. It loafs along in preview/editing.

Chris Barcellos November 26th, 2006 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik
.

My HDTV does not do DVI connection so I am forced to use the component out.

...

My HDV TV only has HDMI input, but I bought a conversion cord at Walmart for $25.00 that does the conversion fine. I actually now am running my 1620 by 1050 Dell Wide screen as my program monitor, and bring the HiDef TV up as the preview monitor. My TV is only 1366 x 768 resolution, but obviously scales to 1080i, because I can tell the difference between 720 p, and 1080i.

Marty Hudzik November 26th, 2006 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos
My HDV TV only has HDMI input, but I bought a conversion cord at Walmart for $25.00 that does the conversion fine. I actually now am running my 1620 by 1050 Dell Wide screen as my program monitor, and bring the HiDef TV up as the preview monitor. My TV is only 1366 x 768 resolution, but obviously scales to 1080i, because I can tell the difference between 720 p, and 1080i.

Mine has no digital inputs at all. So component is the only way for now.

Marty Hudzik November 26th, 2006 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Blish
If you use the Cineform preset, the Cineform intermediate is created in background while capturing so there is no "extra step" (though the file is 3X larger). I also have a dual-core machine (P4 840 EE, so hyperthreaded) and have very smooth preview/playback.

I am using the Matrox Parhelia APVe video card with the desktop connected DVI and my second 1050x1680 panel connected analog/component HD.

I only see 100% CPU utilization on capturing and on long render-outs. It loafs along in preview/editing.

I decided to use the cineform output and it is giving me problems. This particular piece is a wedding shot at 60i and the cineform output from premiere appears to lose sync and it looks like I have the fields reversed. There is a stagger to the clips as they play as if the field order is wrong. However that has nothing to do with it. Sometimes it works for a few seconds but it always seems to lose it. This is with the disable preview moded option unchecked for full res previews. IF you don't check this CIneform downsamples for preview and you can see the loss of resolution.

There seems to be a problem every which way I turn. Arggg!!

Mike Teutsch November 27th, 2006 08:41 AM

Marty,

Don't know if this will help, but have you checked he "Playback Setting" in the "Project Settings?"

There are three differant settings for the "Desktop Display Mode." Compatable, Standard, and Accelerated GPU Effects.

Compatable: uses system CPU for render and playback

Standard: Renders with CPU, displays with Graphics card or GPU

Accelerated GPU Effects: Uses uses GPU for rendering the frames for display, and viewing.

Accelerated GPU Effects is for those who have those neat fast graphics cards, which I don't have.


If your footage is 24p, then above Desktop Display Mode, there is the 24p Conversion Method. May make a difference to some.

These are new to PPro 2.0, and I just found them. Hope it will help, but at least I'm trying! :)

Mike

Marty Hudzik November 27th, 2006 10:30 AM

Mike,
I have tried all of these! None of them seem to make any difference. To be clear I am getting full screen playback to my PC LCD screens with no choppiness. However playback out the HDTV component at 1080i from the same NVidia card gets choppy on my TV. Changing the resolution of the component output to 720p seems to alleviate the problem however I lose visible resolution on my tv for monitoring. I am thinking for now I have to preview playback at 720p and switch to 1080i for critical color adjusting and effects. not Ideal but at least it is working somewhat.

Thanks for the tips but unfortunately I already tried those!

Marty


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