Capturing dialogue
 

Hi. My apologies if this is thread topic too often created. I am shooting a low-budget feature and need to be able to record good quality audio, specifically dialogue. I have an EX1, but doubt it is the best medium to record audio to. What do the pros on a budget use? Obviously I'll need a good shotgun mic, but after that, I don't know a thing about recording dialogue. What are all of the components I'll need to get "good" quality audio? (By good I mean, good enough so that no one can say the sound is bad) I have a budget of around 2-3 grand.

P.S. for curiosity's sake, how much would I need to spend to get pro-quality hollywood sound capturing gear? Probably upwards of $30,000-$50,000...

Hello Spencer,

A good kit has
a shotgun, a hyper or supercardioid for boom, each with wind gear
a boom with a suspension mount
a boom stand for locked down shots
a couple of lavs, hard-wired and wireless
a good omni handheld
a mixer
headphones
cables
bag and shoulder straps to carry the gear
maybe a small hand truck to cart it all around

Depending on what you get, that could be $5k to $15 to even more. Top of the line wireless systems from Audio Ltd 2040 run about $5k each. I didn't use them in coming up with the $15k figure.


Regards,

Ty Ford

Spencer:

You may find this helpful, it outlines, gear, budgets and the basics of all of this http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage...ion_sound.html

Enjoy!

Dan

Ty, it seems you know a lot about this subject. Could you point in me in the direction of some quality gear? Mics, the omni handled, a mixer etc. Also, what is the industry standard, bread and butter setup? Even though it won't be within my budget, I would like to know, just to have a yardstick to measure gear by.

Dan, I am reading the article. Very good introduction to the subject.

Let's assume for a moment that you cannot afford the cadillac of equipment, but want the best quality audio a "reasonable" budget can afford. Further you want to buy equipment that, as you CAN afford to upgrade, will bring back a good portion of its value on resale after you decide to move up. Ok?

That said, here is one lowly amateur's recommendation.

Boom Pole - Gitzo carbon $200
Shotgun Mic AT 4073 $550
Wireless Lavalier Sennheiser G2 $500
Shock mount Audio Technica $60
Wind Screen for shotgun www.thewindcutter.com $60
Blimp for Shotgun $200 (www.dvaccessory.com)
Hand mic (dymanic) Shure 57 $100
Wired lavalier - your choice (I have a couple Sony EC-44's I picked up on E-bay used for under $100 apiece) You may wish to read Dan's article on lavalier's on www.kenstone.net
Field Mixer - Sound Devices MicPre $700
Headphones (cans) Sony 7506 $100
Cables etc ($100 is my estimate. Do not fall prey to the "Monster Cable" myth. Decent cables can be had at a reaosnable price.)

For interior booming, a hypercardiod condensor is a good choice. The Cadillac is the Schoeps, but for less an Oktava MC-012, with a hyper capsule and modded to improve sound quality can be had for around $300. The Schoeps is about 3 times that and IS the Industry standard.

Now will this produce the cadillac sound? Probably not Hollywood Cadillac, but damn close for now as you learn and slowly move up in your gear.

Just my 2 cents. And close to your $2-3K.

Wow. That is detailed. I am going to check that gear out. Ideally, I like to buy gear that I don't need to upgrade right away, if at all affordable. As I already own my camera gear and editing equipment, I can afford to stretch and spend 3-5 K if it would get me close to a pro level.

For a next step up and candidly pretty darn good stuff would be to make the hyper the Schoeps CMC641, the wireless an Audio technica 1800 (adding AT899 mics to the kit) and a MKH 60 shotgun. You'll find all of that in use on pro sets (although the AT1800 might be passed over in favor of the high end wireless stuff like Ty mentioned.) The wired lav I will leave to you. Read Dan's article and decide for yourself. I suggest whatever you get for a wired lav you buy two identical ones. The field mixer could be upgraded to the SD302, but unless you think you are going to need all 3 channels the MixPre is the same guts on two channels, more or less.

ps. The AT4073 is a nice shotgun for my tastes...I've never done a side by side comparison to the MKH60... but I like its sensitivity and reach. If you need a slightly better rejection and thus longer "reach" you might look at the AT 4071a.

Is there a ballpark figure for how much all of this is going to cost?

My current needs are concordant with my ability to secure locations, which at this point is quite low. As such, my locations are going to consist of houses, barns, garages etc. Mainly any larger, open spaces with little ambient noise where I can build sets etc. I don't have a lot of ambitious location shoots on my itinerary just yet. Mostly interiors.

The other thing I am going to do is budget for at least 2-3 semi-pro guys to help me shoot my next feature once I have this one completed. I have no idea how much it will cost though. I imagine that people in film schools who want the experience will work for less than fully pro guys. I guess I would need a boom operator and a mixer, and then a DP. It may be prohibitively expensive, but I have to see. Is there an hourly rate most semi-pros accept?

My initial post was in line with what you are describing. You then expressed a desire to add to the pot and go higher, and I gave you my idea of the next step up. The first setup will give you good sound. If you are doing mainly interiors go with the schoeps. and see if you can't hold off on the wireless.

Is this the same mic you mean?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...phone_Set.html

That set is over six times more expensive than the Oktava. Is it because of the included pre-amp? Can't seem to find just the mic on B&H.

Hello Spencer,

A good kit has
a shotgun, a hyper or supercardioid for boom, each with wind gear:
Shotguns: Sanken CS-3e, Sennheiser MKH 60, Sennheiser MHK 416
Hypers: Schoeps cmc641,

a boom with a suspension mount
K-tek carbon fiber, K-tek or Rycote invision suspension mount.

a boom stand for locked down shots
C-stand or light stand with grip head and boom jig.

a couple of lavs, hard-wired and wireless
Lectrosonic wireless or Audio Technica 1800 wireless
Countryman B6 mics.

a good omni handheld: EV RE50
a mixer: SOund Devices 302
headphones: Audio Technica ATH-M50
cables
bag and shoulder straps to carry the gear: Portabrace
maybe a small hand truck to cart it all around

Depending on what you get, that could be $5k to $15 to even more. Top of the line wireless systems from Audio Ltd 2040 run about $5k each. I didn't use them in coming up with the $15k figure.


Regards,

Ty Ford

Call me a newb, (Because I am), but in the article by Ken, I didn't see him recommending either using the video camera to record sound, OR an alternative sound recording device. He said that camcorders are by and large crappy to record to, and that using other recorders will cause syncing problems. I have an EX1, so the sound can't be that bad, but there is obviously a better alternative they use in the industry, I just don't know what it is.

Hello Spencer,

Does your camera output time code? It's easier to slave a time code capable audio recorder to a camera by the camera's time code output.

There are many audio recorders that can be used.

Sound Devices makes excellent ones. I own a 744T. They have just put out the 788T; an eight channel hard drive recorder with excellent specs.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Hi Specer:

I have been shooting a lot lately with the EX-1. The sound is okay, not the best, not the worst by any means. The 744T and 788T that Ty is mentioning sound better than ANY camcorder by far. Think about it, in the overall price of a camcorder, how much of the build budget do you think is alloted to the audio chain? Not very much.

The EX-1 does not have a dedicated TC output. With a consumer camera like the EX-1, when used with a professional outboard recorder, you must manually sync audio in post. Not as big a deal as most people think it is. If you are using the EX-1 for a feature or narrative show, if you have a sound mixer, double system sound is a viable way to increase quality. If you are a do it yourselfer and are not hiring a sound mixer, I would advise against double system sound, it will be more trouble than it is worth.

Best,

Dan

It seems that sound devices are the only ones in the pro price-range available at B&H. Would I be able to get by with only 2 channels, or will I need 4? What happens when the HD crashes? Can you replace them?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...n_Compact.html

Now you have expanded the idea to include sound recording. Which is ok. I am exploring that area myself. Field mixers have not changed in a long time. Recording devices have.

The Edirol R44 (4 channel 48 bit...) has my attention at the moment... $800. As Dan says the camera is not usually the best place to record sound (trust me I know I have the SONY Z-1 with the awful compression in HD). Ty is the consummate professional. Not everyone can afford to emulate his high standards, but he maintains them appropriately. If dual sound is what you are after (e.g. a second recording device that is better than your camera,) then you have opened an entire new arena.

Synch is unchanged in that arena on the low end since the 1930/40's. A synch slate. Works like a champ. Line up the audio spike with the closing of the slate on the video. Modern devices have time code and can synch with the camera TC... $$$$

You seem like a moving target. What is it exactly you want? Dan and Ty are board authoriities in my mind.... maybe if you can be more concrete in what you are after and your budget it would be easier.

I will be concrete about this gear once I know what it is I need exactly. Note that I don't have a background in audio gear, so it has really been the last couple of days where I have been making a real effort to learn about it.

Spencer, I think a decent recorder will blow too much of your budget, and a cheap one isn't worth having.

For me, the order of importance on major items would be:

Pole - Minimum is K-Tek Avalon for $250
Shotgun, hypercardiod combo
Mixer
Recorder (way down on the list)

Notice I don't mention brands (except for the pole), as there are just too many options. You will need decent headphones, cables and a shockmount and probably wind protection. After you get the pole and other essentials, I'd blow most of the rest of the budget on the best mics you can afford. The SoundDevices MM1 is a cheap way to get phantom power, low-cut filter, limiter and some control over gain, but it isn't a mixer. Still, it will be useful to you in the future even after you get a mixer, so it's a solid purchase.

So I should record the audio to my EX1 then, if I don't get a sound recorder? If I use the crappy XLR inputs won't it ruin otherwise good sound?

No, the XLR inputs won't hurt the audio. It's quite a good thing you have XLR inputs actually. The reason I say hold off on double system is that you have a really low budget here. If you can't get good audio on your camera, you won't get it with a dedicated recorder either. It's really all about getting good placement with good mics and recording a healthy signal. Once you're doing all that, then it's time to start worrying about a separate recorder -- and the separate person who is going to be operating it. Before that even, you have to figure out who you're going to get to boom. If they don't know what they are doing you are doomed at the start.

Spencer,

I noticed in one of your posts that you were asking if the pre-amp was what made the Schoeps so expensive and if you couldn't just get the mic itself.

The Schoeps is a modular system (as are some others) so you need both a microphone capsule and a "pre-amp" to have a working microphone. They make many kinds of interchangeable capsules that screw into the amplifier base, which in turn connects to your XLR cable.

So you need a minimum of one amplifier base and one mic capsule (in this case a hypercardioid capsule.)

And yes, they are very expensive, particularly as they just had a major price increase recently because of the falling dollar.

Very expensive, but really excellent mics and most people think they're worth every penny. I think the mic is the most critical part of the hardware equation. Recorders, mixers, whatever are also important, but the mic is what grabs the sound for you.

Hire sound person!
 

Hi Spencer

I am currently finishing post production of my first short.
I highly recommend to hire an experienced sound recordist with his gear or consult him and go rent together.

It will make a huge difference to the sound quality you will end up, even if he uses cheaper equipment. This is what the pros do!

It doesn't make sense to buy even affordable equipment unless you are a sound recordist yourself or a production company.

Also take my word for it and shoot a couple of shorts first, from start to end.
The stuff you're asking should be tried and learnt in small scale before jumping in a feature.

Good luck,
Stelios

To answer your initial question, you will need to record sound dual system;
this is on-camera through the XLR inputs to have a synched master (even with poor audio) AND on a professional external sound recorder for maximum quality and flexibity.

We used the TASCAM HD-P2 with allows 2 uncompressed audio chanells recorded on Memory cards and has robust make quality.

Stelios

How marked will the quality difference be between the Tascam and the Sound Devices 702T?

I come from the school of do-it-yourself. Is it THAT difficult to do? Keep in mind that my shooting style is quite static. If pushed, I can light the scenes, set the camera up, press record, slate it and get my audio gear on and operate a boom. It will be painstaking, but, I can afford to take my time, considering the types of projects I am doing. Laugh all you want. It is pretty absurd, but it is what I am willing to do for good sound. If I had the money, I would hire real actors and a 2-3 man crew, secure good locations, and complete principal photography in a couple weeks. I don't have that kind of cash right now, so I need to be more flexible with my time frames, and as such cannot afford even a couple of sound guys. At least not yet.

I am not idiotic though. If it really is EXTREMELY difficult to record dual-system audio, perhaps I will put up with the mediocre audio my crappy little camera picks up. haha.

Haven't tested the 702T but for the same specifications, it seems more expensive than the Tascam.

Again for what it costs (around $1000) you can shoot a nice short with a budget.

Proffesionals don't always work for money; if they really like your project they may come for free especially if you be honest and tell them that you are a no-budget. And as far as I know, Canada has a good pool of talent.

The Schoeps is a modular microphone (as is the Octava) which means that a single complete microphone consists of two components, a preamp section plus one of a variety of different available capsules chosen based on the needs of the situation. The 'preamp' referred to in the product description is an integral part of the microphone itself that powers the capsule and is not the same thing as a mic preamp or mixer that is placed between the mic and the camera or recorder to boost the signal level. The package your link points to is for one complete mic kit consisting of the base preamp module plus the hypercardioid capsule. If you want other pickup patterns, capsules for omni, cardioid, etc are also available separately for about a kilobuck apiece - you unscrew the hyper capsule and replace it with one of the types when desired.

The problem with extreme DIY is that you only have two hands and can only split your attention a few directions at once and do it all justice. Mic aiming on a boom needs constant adjustment as the scene plays out and the action and dialog shift around. Signal levels and the subjective sound itself need constant attention and monitoring throughout the scene - they are NOT a 'set it up and let 'er rip' kind of detail. At the same time, the picture in your camera viewfinder also needs constant attention and monitoring, constantly refining the framing and focus visually. You can't keep your eyes on the camera viewfinder AND the mixer's meters AND the direction the mic is pointing; your hands can't be on the camera controls and tripod head arm AND on the mixer's faders AND on the mic boom, all at the same time - just can't be done by a single human.

Hi Spencer:

Do you watch 24? If you watch the Season 5 DVD, I shot the piece, "Music By Sean Callery" by myself. That was two mics, two moving cameras, all of the lighting and prompting Sean with questions. I am really proud of that piece, not that it looks that great, it doesn't because of the one man band factor. I was proud because I actually achieved a two camera shoot by myself that worked well for the situation. Adding dual system sound in that sort of situation is insanity, you will screw up either your cameras or sound at some point.

The EX-1 sound is not that bad. I just began a series of four pieces for Paramount and we are using the EX-1 sound, its pretty clear and doesn't have too much distortion. Just make sure that you use manual levels, never auto levels. Use good mics and go for it. Double system sound is probably most evident in theatrical releases where the sound will be pumped through a huge theater sound system and really amplified loudly, that's where those differences are most apparent. In television or home video, the differences are still apparent but many different productions only use camera sound. Almost all of the reality and semi reality you see on cable is in camera sound, it's not usually that bad, depending on the camera.

I shot that Sean Callery piece on two Z1s. Even though I did not particularly like the sound on the Z1s, it worked fine and the EX-1 has considerably better quality.

Get a crew of some kind, filmmaking is a collaborative sport. I have shot a lot of DVD bonus material by myself and the quality always suffers. I always tell the clients that if I can have a sound mixer, the end product will be better. Sometimes they care, sometimes they don't.

Good luck,

Dan

You shot stuff for "24"? Cool man. Seriously cool. That show is pretty expensive I'd take it.

I know that it is a collaborative art, and I want as much help as I can get on these projects...I just don't currently know a lot of people willing to sacrifice their time for a newbie. I am sure many in my position also have this problem. I know a lot of amateurs willing to help, but they tend to make things worse when given a set of headphones or a boom to hold. The other problem is that because I don't have the funds to shoot a movie in one fell swoop, it is difficult to secure consistent help. A guy is on location one day, than is absent the next. etc. I will find a way around all of this though. My best buddy would probably be excellent on sound, and he gets back to Canada soon. I am sure he would do sound for me.

Is it possible to set the levels in the mixer, and let the boom operator take it from there? Not ideal, but perhaps it could work. Do you really need to mix on the fly, or can you set the levels and let them be on a shot by shot basis?

Booming and mixing takes a lot of skill and practice. You should let your boom guy just concentrate on booming. If I were you, I'd get the MM1 for the boom-op. This will let him/her hear what's getting picked up by the mic. It will also give you a line level signal back to the camera, which will help protect you from interference from power cables and such. The MM1's limiter will also help keep the dynamic range under control, which is important because it seems unlikely that anyone is going to be giving their best attention to the levels. You also get phantom power, low-cut filter, and lots of extra gain. At the camera, you split the track (essentially record the same signal to both channels), and set one level higher than the other. It's best to have a third person keep an eye on the levels, but the camera operator can do it if there is a limiter earlier in the chain and you split the track. This setup will give you a reasonable margin for error. Using line level should also get you a little better audio performance from your camera. You basically want to record as hot a signal as possible. Camera operator, or other person monitoring audio, MUST MONITOR WITH HEADPHONES AT ALL TIMES.

if levels are consistent and you get to do a rehearsal, A GOOD boom op should be able to ride the levels

"A GOOD boom op should be able to ride the levels"

Absolutely. But a novice? No way. And that's what we're talking about here. I think this particular boom op is going to need all of their attention on getting good placement. I think the camera operator will have better luck managing the levels, as problematic as that is. Far better to have a third person. No doubt.

One last thing (okay, I seem to have too much time on my hands today), but you really ought to try and get some help with this stuff. It's not that hard. Find other local filmmakers in your area and volunteer on their shoots. Expect they will do the same for you, or they are not cool people. Network, network, network.

I've got that Tascam too. One thing it has over many other budget recorders (though I guess it has to be close to the top of what you could call budget, granted) is it can receive timecode. Of course, your camera doesn't have that. Neither does mine. What it does have though, is an ability to detect the clock rate of the camera by "watching" the video. Connect it to the composite out, and it'll run at the same speed as the camera. At least, that's what they claim. This won't help you sync up at the start, for which you'll still want a slate and good record keeping...but it should prevent drift, wherein an audio track that *was* in sync at the start of the video, is no longer in sync after the passage of time.

The only thing I'd say about it is that it seems to prefer quite hot mics, due to the preamps getting a little noisy towards the higher end of the gain.

I have no ability to judge the quality of the limiter, I have no experience of other devices (besides the one built into the DVX100B camcorder).

These latter two elements- pre-amps and limiters seem to be what people are willing to pay the big bucks for (actually timecode also seems to be something the manufacturers want to use as leaverage, but for me, would be a long long way down the chain of importance).

The ideal is to use a mixer and a recorder in conjunction with each other, using the mixer's usually better preamps and limiters and controlling gain with its faders and sending line level on to the recorder. Having both gives you the most flexibility, with the ability to record direct to camera or to the separate recorder, with or without the mixer, as the situation requires.

I've given consideration to getting, say, an SD 302 to augment the Tascam. However, I'm loathe to, as my understanding is that the Tascam, when switching an input from mic to line merely applies a simple attenuator. Why oh why it wouldn't have been just as simple to by-pass the pre-amps, I don't know.

So while it might be that I can have the gain much much lower (and that does seem to produce pretty great results in fairness) when feeding the Tascam with a much hotter signal as pre-amped by the SD 302, I still feel it might be a bit silly.

Of course, I'd gain a bunch of other things too, such as better levels indicators, better limiters, and a third input...oh, and of couse, I could feed the camera with it, or hang it off a boom op...

Good lord, I really need to be saving up for some lights!

I'm primarily a sound person, but I also shoot and edit.

Finding a sound mixer that will work with you rather than for you is a good thing. Extra hands, eyes and ears always come in handy.

You know enough to recognize that you have reached your limitations. The next step is improving your craft by smart division of labor.

Regards,

Ty Ford

The one thing I don't understand about audio recording is exactly why I need a mixer. Why does someone need to "ride the levels"? Can't I just set a limiter or a compressor up to prevent the audio from peaking, and then let the boom operator go for broke? If you mix the sound while recording is taking place, won't it sound inconsistent?