Pocket Recorder for Wired Lav
 

Can anybody recommend the best pocket recorder for a wired lav?

The Olympus LS-10 has been suggested already.

Any others?

I'm looking for something high quality, affordable, that will fit easily into a pocket.

Thank you,

Trey

I use Sony MZ-R37 minidisc recorders for the weddings I shoot. By no means are they the highest quality recorder (wish I could afford a Zoom H4 or three), but they record WAV at 92 or 96khz (can't remember) and with a decent lav mic I get great warm vocals. I just bought another one off ebay as a backup, they're like $20 a piece including shipping, and often include a couple discs.

Chris

Thank you
 

Hi, Chris.

I'm actually looking for something digital so as to save time during playback, capturing, etc..

Also, isn't the H4 just a tad big for a pocket?

Trey

Look at the MicroTrack II:
M-Audio | MicroTrack II - Professional 2-Channel | 9900-52278-00

Small. Takes pro or mini-plug mics. Phantom power. Mini-plug power. Limiter. Records in 24 bit wav plus other variations (mp3, 16 bit, etc.). Removable media that plugs directly into a card reader on a laptop. Switch to lock controls so won't be a problem jostling in a pocket. And more.

It's the width and thickness of a pack of cigarettes, and a bit taller. The dimensions given on the B&H site are for the box the recorder comes in, not the recorder itself.

I use a couple of Microtracks myself with wired lavs. Happy so far.

Need I say it?

...

IRIVERS!

ifp-890/895/899

There is no 'best' pocket recorder....just what works best for you within your budget/size/needs. I have the iRivers, the H2, and I'm getting a LS-10. I feel that each of these have pro's and con's. I would never stick the H2 in a pocket...way to big. The iRivers are okay for pockets, but limited in recording quality. Hopefully, the LS-10 will be a bit of both.
Do you need built-in mics? then go with the Olympus. Do you value size over everything? Try to find an iRiver. Do you need XLR inputs or phantom power...then you're barking up a different tree. Pick a unit that has already been suggested, or take a chance on waiting for that 'best' pocket recorder (and let us know what you get).

I use two MicroTracks (II) like the other guys. Never had a problem although sync will drift if you are rolling at 24P. If I were more serious about audio, I'd go with the Tascam P2-HD although this isn't a pocket recorder.

-C

How bad is the drift?

Depends how long your clip is - the longer the take, the longer the drift.

If you have a "big" pocket... I'd suggest the Sony PCM-D50

The recordings with just the PCM-D50's on-board mics are incredible. Really clean, with low noise. The plug-in use of mics through the 1/8" miniplug adds a bit of a hiss due to the not-so great pre-amps. But it's still pretty good. You can hear what I mean...

Here is a sample with a Countryman B6 plugged directly into the PCM-D50. http://www.dvcreators.net/media/SONYPCMD50_MONO_B6.mov

I have the Sony and like it a lot, but, as you say, it really does need a BIG pocket and the weight is another issue.

I did a couple of side by side comparisons with the Sony and my Schoeps mics and the Sony did better than one might imagine - it's a real price performer and the mics are far better than one would expect at this price point.

By the way, I've been thinking of getting a Countryman, but got totally confused by all the cable and connector options. What would I have to specify to get one that would plug directly to the Sony or the MicroTracks?

The Countryman B6 with the Sennheiser Evolution connector is the one we carry. On the Sony PCM-D50, you'll need to turn plug-on power in the menu. If I remember correctly, its smart enough to ask you if you'd like to turn it on when it senses a mic has been plugged into the MIC port.

Pre Amps
 

I keep seeing comments about pre amps.

What specs determine whether or not a preamp is of high quality?

Trey

I'm not sure there's any particular spec that is definitive enough. And even the term "high quality" has to be understood in the context of how expensive the unit is. The more one spends, the "higher quality" one usually gets when buying from reputable makers. Sacrifices have to be made in the interests of cost and physical size - I wouldn't expect the same "quality" in the pre-amps of the Sony PCM-D50 as in one of the Sound Devices recorders for example.

On the other hand, a "lower quality" preamp in a recorder intended to record dialogue from a lav might be just as good for the task as a pricey preamp designed for classical music recording if the expensive recorder were used for recording dialogue with the same lav.

I'm also not sure makers really provide enough detail in the specs to make it an easy call.

So maybe the relevant "spec" is price.

In the end I think it all comes down to listening to the result and drawing your conclusions.

In the case of the Sony, for example, a lot of folks seem to think that the quality of the recording done with the onboard mics seems better than the quality of a recording from an external mic via the 1/8 " jack. Not clear if it's a case of quality of pre-amp as much as a case of how well the mics and pre-amps are matched

I'm sure one of the more technically astute forum members will be able to take issue with everything I said here, but I still think listening is the best way. If you can't hear a difference, then there probably isn't any difference - at least any difference that's relevant to what and how you're recording.

There are toys, then there is a way of doing it right...

"Audio is Time Code referenced, recorded and played back on a removable mini SD memory card via manual commands or remotely commanded from the IFB100 transmitter."

Zaxcom

Surprisingly affordable for probably some of the best quality available period.

Dan

MicroTrack II vs Sony PCM-D50
 

I just did a side-by side. I clipped two Voice Technologies V500 lavs to my shirt almost touching each other and ran one into the Sony and one into the Microtrack and read a short passage.

I couldn't hear any difference whatsoever - at least on the little speakers on the PC.

Whatever difference there may be is certainly slight enough that I wouldn't worry about it

So it just comes down to preferring the MicroTrack for wired lav based on the weight and bulk of the Sony.

I sure like the Sony, though.

Hi Dan,

Funny, but I was thinking of you when reading this thread. I had the feeling you'd be chiming in sooner or later.

I have no particular aversion to spending gobs of money on good gear.

I don't use lavs much, though, and so far I'm sufficiently satisfied with the results I can get by using the MicroTracks instead of going wireless. I'm certainly not under any illusion that they're the best of breed, but so far they've been good enough for my needs.

I think it gets back to my earlier comment that the single spec that most defines "high quality" is price.

I think we're incredibly lucky that thanks to technology we can get reasonable results for not much $$$

Hi Jim:

I have used several of the recorders in this thread and to tell the truth, almost all of them sound leagues better than any camcorder does. Even the cheap ones like the Zoom H2 actually sound fairly good.

I was just intrigued that you can buy a Zaxcom transmitter that will record TC and signal to an SD card internally. This would be a great way for one to work their way into owning a Zaxcom wireless system, one of the best on the market. You could buy the transmitter with the 901 internal recording option, then when your tax return comes in next year, but a receiver and you would have the best of both worlds, a killer internal recording option to SD and probably one of the top two or three wireless systems available.

Best,

Dan

Dan,

Yes, I thought it was interesting also. I hunted around their web page a while, but not being sufficiently familiar with the product line I was having a hard time figuring out what they were really selling. I finally concluded that it was an add in for the transmitter, but then I started wondering why they wouldn't eliminate the transmitter and make the SD recorder available as a standalone product.

You;re right on re the little recorders being better than most (if not all) in camera recording.

My biggest beef with the small recorders is that it's really hard to set anything like consistent recording levels with the miserable metering they give you. The $1k version of the Sony seems to have a pair of readable meters, though

There's some really good stuff in here that's a little over my head.

So by all means, carry on. I'm going to keep lurking for awhile, and I'll chime in when I know what to ask.

Thank you all for your participation in this thread.

Trey

Trey,

Sorry if we went too fast or got off topic. No need to lurk - just tell us straight out to get back to answering your question and stop confusing you. Seriously! We all have a tendency to drift off into side discussions.

As I understood your original question you were looking for a good wired pocket recorder to use with your lavs. I know you said "best" but "best" is really hard to define.

Maybe if you tell us more about what you want to record and what budget you're thinking of and what kind of lavs you have we can target our responses more toward what you want to know. We'll be more than happy to try.

One of the popular magazines, (was it EQ? or something?) did a really comprehensive write up on all of the pocket recorder available last month. It was really great if you can hunt it down.

Dan

Sony Hi MD- MZ RH10 Records PCM level, with a mic input.

No worries, Jim.

My biggest thing right now is that I'm torn between wired and wireless. If I was a rich man, I would just get both and be done with it.

I am predominately interested in short films first and weddings second. I am looking for two very small lavs. Like I said though, I don't know if I'm going wired or wireless. There are so many pros and cons for each of these - makes the decision very hard you know?

Today I'm leaning toward wireless; tomorrow who knows. With that being said, I would like to find a receiver that will attach to the hot shoe of my HV30. It would be especially great if that receiver could receive more than one signal at a time (both lavs). I mentioned earlier that I'm looking for something very small.

However, if I can be convinced that a lav under a shirt can still pick up the talent's voice in a satisfactory fashion, I'd be willing to go a little bigger.

My plan is to use the 2 lavs for dialogue and then use a H2, H4, or Olympus LS-10 for ambient.

I would like to keep this package at or less than $1,000.

Thank you for your help.

Trey

Azden and Audio Technica both have dual receiver packages. The Azden, I have not tested, but I do own the Audio Techncia 1800 and it is way too large to put on a small camera such as your HV30. Plus it's over $1k and I'll have to test more, but it sounded like the Sennheiser was cleaner (less noise). Back to the Azden, while it may look like a good deal, I'd perform quite a bit of due diligence before going that route. They don't have the best reputation for quality. Azden Corporation - Wireless Microphones For Working People - 325ULT Dual-Channel UHF twin Body-Pack Comb System

Myself, I use two Sennheiser Evolution G2's with either a Bracket1 mount or a Mic Mate. The Mic Mate you can find at Markertek.com. It can actually hold 3 receivers vertically.
You'll need a BeachTek or some kind of mixer or cable to input one mic to the Left channel and one mic to Right channel. You don't want to just mix them both down, the control of separate channels in post is essential.
If you're trying to keep it under $1k, we sometimes get in refurb Sennheiser G2 packages if you want to go that route, it'll keep you within budget.

One of the benefits of going with the wireless as opposed to a portable recorder is that you will have audio in sync with the video on tape. It's not a lot of fun hand syncing a bunch of files when you're in a hurry to get a project done. It takes the groove out of editing when you have to make one and two frame adjustments or find a file with some bizarre file name. Although some of the recorders will use time of day for the file name, it's still a nightmare that I'm sure you'd appreciate not having to contend with.

Hope this helps,

I guess there a pros and cons to everything!

Wireless has the advantage that Guy points out of being able to record in camera.

On the other hand, you have to watch out for interference from cell phones, police radios, electric dog collars, whatever, worry about what frequencies to use where, etc etc. A lot of people seem to say " wire when you can, wireless when you can't". And quality of in-camera recording may not be so great.

I think your idea of "do both" might not be so expensive if you get a lav with a connector that would work both with a wireless system or one of the small recorders. Then you could start with a pocket recorder and move to wireless with the same mics.

I know I don't need wireless, and so far haven't even needed to hide the lavs, although the day may come.

You can get a Zaxcom ZFR100 timecode capable SD recorder for about 1000$ for the mono version and 1300 $ for the stereo version.

Zaxcom

[QUOTE=
Myself, I use two Sennheiser Evolution G2's with either a Bracket1 mount or a Mic Mate. The Mic Mate you can find at Markertek.com. It can actually hold 3 receivers vertically.
You'll need a BeachTek or some kind of mixer or cable to input one mic to the Left channel and one mic to Right channel. You don't want to just mix them both down, the control of separate channels in post is essential.
If you're trying to keep it under $1k, we sometimes get in refurb Sennheiser G2 packages if you want to go that route, it'll keep you within budget.


Hope this helps,[/QUOTE]

Hello, Guy.

Do you have any pictures of the G2 on a bracket mount?

Also, it sounds like from your post that you might be a salesmen? Would I be correct in saying that?

If you are, I'd like to know a little more about the G2 set up (refurb).

Thanks for the helpful post.

Trey

I was also wondering how useable is the bracket 1 for handheld situations?

Is it heavy?

Is it cumbersome?

Is it unbalanced?

Trey

I have been using the Bracket 1 for about a year. Is it heavy? The Bracket 1 itself? No.

Is it cumbersome? Relatively, yes. You are adding one or two wireless receivers to the side of a smaller camera, with audio output cables to the side of the camera, yes, it is more cumbersome than a bare camera but all things considered, it is pretty slick.

Is it unbalanced? Yes, definitely. The camera will heavily lean to the right with one receiver and very heavily to the right with two recievers. That's the breaks. If you were using a big heavy 2/3" camera, wouldn't be a big deal but with a 5lb HVX, you will have sore wrists at the end of the day. Nature of the beast.

I have nothing but good things to say about the Bracket 1, excellent product. I just wish that good wireless receivers were a lot smaller and lighter than they are. I use with Lectro 400 series and with Audio Technica AT100 series. I shoot more with a tripod on the days I have to use two receivers ;-)

Dan

Some pics
 

Hi:

I dug these up from my Prison Break shoots in Florida last year. Both show the Bracket 1 setup I use with the Lectro. It is quite a hefty little package. The long XLR in the one picture has a wired lav at the end of it. Like a good sound person, I never use wireless for sit down interviews, that is lazy and stupid. Since we alternate between on-set BTS, then nail the crew and actors for interviews periodically, I have to be ready for both.

Also note Hoodman (a must for the Florida sun) and Cokin circular polarizer on lens.

Dan

Thank you all for the feed back.

Streamlining is a must in my opinion.

With that being said it's looking like I'll probably be opting for a receiver that can be mounted on my HV30 - black would be nice.

Trey

You might look at the Audio-Technica Pro88:
Audio-Technica | Pro 88W - Camera Mountable VHF | W88-68-830

Color is a dark gray with a black antenna.

You want to make sure you get one with the 830 mic. This mic is very good. It has the shape of a Tram. (Don't get the other mic offered. I think its the 829... not good.)

This unit will plug directly into the HV30 without any kind of adapter. This is the only unit in its price/quality category.

I have more expensive "pro" systems, but I still use 3 of these for certain things.

The receiver smaller and more lightweight than any other option. It uses a nine volt battery that lasts a pretty long time.

If you are in relatively close range, this unit is excellent in my opinion. Each unit comes in two switchable frequencies. I have always found that one or the other is working for me, and I am in L.A.

The Mic Mate would probably be your best bet if you want something really streamlined and balanced on an HV30. If you jump over to this thread http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/945307-post8.html
you can see a few pics of the Bracket1 Mini on my Sony SR11 palm sized camcorder. It definitely leans to the right... If you're interested in seeing it, I can get a shot of the Mic Mate with two receivers on it to give you an idea of what it looks like.

And yes, we're a proud sponsor of DVinfo.net so you can use the coupon code "dvinfo" to get a discount. So a refurb G2 set is 10% off of the $549 + with the dvinfo.net 5% off of that is about $474. Give a call and we'll hook you up. 1-877-353-8077

Do you know how it plugs into the HV30?

Is it the hot shoe?

Trey

It has a mini-plug that plugs into the mic jack on the right side front of the camera.

To mount the receiver on the camera, their is a plastic piece that connects to the receiver then goes into the hot shoe mount. The unit sits horizontal, like a flying deck of cards over the top of the camera.

Thanks for the clarity.

Trey

Come on this an audio forum! If you are judging audio on a pc speaker then you wont hear the difference.

eh rant over..

Smallest Wireless Lav
 

Can anybody suggest the smallest, high quality wireless mic available?

Also, how difficult is it to wire talent under the shirt without sacrificing quality?

Trey