Extreme Echo in Small Room Help!! at DVinfo.net

Frank Reco · December 15th, 2008, 06:42 PM

I am Shooting in a room with hard wooden floors, no furniture, and mirrors on one wall. I am using a wireless lav for single person speech. The echo is cut down but not perfect.

Sometimes 4 people are "on stage" at once and the echo is too much. I am going to hang up sound reduction blankets on the wall to damper the echo, but this is not enough.

Someone told me to set up two mics facing away from each other to form an "X", reverse the wires in one XLR cable and that will create a cancellation of background noise. Is this right, or a bunch of bul*sht??
Would I have to connect to a mixer, then send the audio out to the camera as opposed to going directly from the mics to the camera?
Should I use shotguns, or handheld?

Is there a better way to reduce echo before post?

Chris Soucy · December 15th, 2008, 07:31 PM

The only way to kill that echo is to acoustically kill the room.

Soft covering on the floors (carpet or underlay) and ditto on the walls using anything that comes to hand - curtains, blankets, mattresses, you name it.

There is no electronic or software way to kill echo in such an environment, it has to be done mechanically.

CS

Ty Ford · December 15th, 2008, 09:08 PM

Frank Reco;978776]I am Shooting in a room with hard wooden floors, no furniture, and mirrors on one wall. I am using a wireless lav for single person speech. The echo is cut down but not perfect.

>>Why lock yourself in to a location from Hell? Can you shoot somewhere else more favorable?

Sometimes 4 people are "on stage" at once and the echo is too much. I am going to hang up sound reduction blankets on the wall to damper the echo, but this is not enough.

>>Four people and one wireless lav? That would cause the problem you are hearing.

Someone told me to set up two mics facing away from each other to form an "X", reverse the wires in one XLR cable and that will create a cancellation of background noise. Is this right, or a bunch of bul*sht??

>>Two mics with reversed polarity can reduce frequency noise, but that's not the problem.

Would I have to connect to a mixer, then send the audio out to the camera as opposed to going directly from the mics to the camera?

>>A good mixer is always a good idea, but would not help here.

Should I use shotguns, or handheld?

>>Definitely NOT shotguns. Youare not giving us enough information as to what you are trying to shoot. One person talking, four people talking? How many mics do you have?

Is there a better way to reduce echo before post?[/QUOTE]

>>Probably.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Frank Reco · December 16th, 2008, 12:32 AM

Sorry if I wasnt clear. I used to use my on camera mic, but that doesnt cut it. I bought a wireless lav to mic 1 person for a monolog or soliloque(forgive my spelling..). This reduced the echo from the 1 person that is speaking a good deal.

Other times up to 4 people do a scene at once. This is where my problem is. I do not use the lav in this case. I switch to the on cam mic, but i need a better solution than this.

I will be able to get just about as many mics as I need. Getting the equipment is not so much a problem, as is what to use and how to use it to reduce echo.

Change of location is not an option bc the person who is running it requests this room. I have no influence over this decision.

I will def pad up the room. Thanks for the advice so far...

Perrone Ford · December 16th, 2008, 01:11 AM

Oh, well that's better.

If you are working with scripted dialog, then you need a good sound person with a boom pole. If you can't get that, then you need to mic everyone seperately with lavs and send it to a decent 4-track recorder and run dual-sounnd. Sync up in post. Just like you were shooting real film. This will reduce the echo, and give you nice sound all around. Honestly, with as live as that room is, I'd be using the lavs hidden under the first layer of clothes. Try to slow down some of those reflections.

Not a fun problem to have.

Steve House · December 16th, 2008, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Is there a better way to reduce echo before post?

Other than Chris's post early in the thread, this part of the question fell through the cracks. ALL echo reduction must be done before post. There is no filter or post-production technique that can remove reverb from the track once it's in there. You have to fix it at the source. Once it's recorded, you're stuck with it,

Marco Leavitt · December 17th, 2008, 09:11 PM

Conventional wisdom is that hanging blankets need to cover two perpendicular walls to be effective. In practice, this is rarely possible, at least for me, due to lighting, time involved, or whatever. It's definitely worth it though, if you can manage it. As mentioned, the on-camera mic is the worst possible choice for this situation.

Frank Reco · December 17th, 2008, 10:19 PM

I have sound resistant blankets. Today was one of the days that I was in the room, but I was unable to hang them bc of a lack of time. Im not sure how to hang them either. I cannot pin, staple, nail, tack or any other thing that would go into the walls. The blankets are too heavy to tape...It seems like the only option left is to support them with a c-stand or something similar. I dont have anything to suspend them like this.

This really isnt a huge production and I am starting to move out of my budget, so I will just lay some blankets around and thats the best I can do.

I really appreciate the advice from all of you. Thanks to all.

Dean Sensui · December 18th, 2008, 04:41 AM

Use light stands to support the blankets out of camera range.

Marco Leavitt · December 18th, 2008, 07:33 AM

Dean, what do you use for the cross beam when you do that?

Dean Sensui · December 18th, 2008, 11:33 AM

Marco...

I just use a 1/2" diameter aluminum tube. The sound blanket is fastened with spring clips. Fast, easy and cheap.

Marco Leavitt · December 18th, 2008, 02:29 PM

Interesting. How do you attach the crossbeam to the stands?

Bill Davis · December 18th, 2008, 11:43 PM

Mafer Clamps. (aka Super Clamps)

(Tho there are probably 100 other ways to do this as well.)

Steve Oakley · December 19th, 2008, 05:28 PM

new trick, siamese a pair of 40" arms ( one grabs the other facing opposite direction ) in a C stand. makes for a nice wide reach, grip clip as usual. even just a single 40" arm will do, better then nothing, problably sitting there on the set to start with. you could also use a 4 / 6 / 8 ft side from a frame, mount that on a C and hang 2 blankets.

going with the DYI approach, I'd get a 1" - 1"1/2 peice of Aluminum pipe or square tube, drill 5/8 holes in the ends so they line up vertically, and you can just drop it onto the top of a stand. I'd drill the middle too. no clamps required.

Andrew Dean · December 22nd, 2008, 04:45 AM

i'm a big gear whore, but... if its a choice between not hanging the blankets due to cost of proper gear vs. using ghetto gear, i'm all about the ghetto. screw brooms together. tie tree branches together with rope... anything you can use to get padding on the wall will help. Yeah, c-stands with a truss would be ideal... but i guarantee if you get creative you can get some fabric on the walls for less than the cost of a trip to starbucks. Might be ugly, but sound isnt about looking pretty. Photos of professional audio guys will reinforce that point. OY! :,>

December 15th, 2008, 06:42 PM	#1
Frank Reco New Boot Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 9	Extreme Echo in Small Room Help!! I am Shooting in a room with hard wooden floors, no furniture, and mirrors on one wall. I am using a wireless lav for single person speech. The echo is cut down but not perfect. Sometimes 4 people are "on stage" at once and the echo is too much. I am going to hang up sound reduction blankets on the wall to damper the echo, but this is not enough. Someone told me to set up two mics facing away from each other to form an "X", reverse the wires in one XLR cable and that will create a cancellation of background noise. Is this right, or a bunch of bul*sht?? Would I have to connect to a mixer, then send the audio out to the camera as opposed to going directly from the mics to the camera? Should I use shotguns, or handheld? Is there a better way to reduce echo before post?

December 15th, 2008, 07:31 PM	#2
Chris Soucy Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Fairfield, Dunedin, New Zealand Posts: 3,682 Images: 18	Hi Frank............. The only way to kill that echo is to acoustically kill the room. Soft covering on the floors (carpet or underlay) and ditto on the walls using anything that comes to hand - curtains, blankets, mattresses, you name it. There is no electronic or software way to kill echo in such an environment, it has to be done mechanically. CS

December 15th, 2008, 09:08 PM	#3
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Frank Reco;978776]I am Shooting in a room with hard wooden floors, no furniture, and mirrors on one wall. I am using a wireless lav for single person speech. The echo is cut down but not perfect. >>Why lock yourself in to a location from Hell? Can you shoot somewhere else more favorable? Sometimes 4 people are "on stage" at once and the echo is too much. I am going to hang up sound reduction blankets on the wall to damper the echo, but this is not enough. >>Four people and one wireless lav? That would cause the problem you are hearing. Someone told me to set up two mics facing away from each other to form an "X", reverse the wires in one XLR cable and that will create a cancellation of background noise. Is this right, or a bunch of bul*sht?? >>Two mics with reversed polarity can reduce frequency noise, but that's not the problem. Would I have to connect to a mixer, then send the audio out to the camera as opposed to going directly from the mics to the camera? >>A good mixer is always a good idea, but would not help here. Should I use shotguns, or handheld? >>Definitely NOT shotguns. Youare not giving us enough information as to what you are trying to shoot. One person talking, four people talking? How many mics do you have? Is there a better way to reduce echo before post?[/QUOTE] >>Probably. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

December 16th, 2008, 01:11 AM	#5
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Oh, well that's better. If you are working with scripted dialog, then you need a good sound person with a boom pole. If you can't get that, then you need to mic everyone seperately with lavs and send it to a decent 4-track recorder and run dual-sounnd. Sync up in post. Just like you were shooting real film. This will reduce the echo, and give you nice sound all around. Honestly, with as live as that room is, I'd be using the lavs hidden under the first layer of clothes. Try to slow down some of those reflections. Not a fun problem to have. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

December 18th, 2008, 04:41 AM	#9
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Use light stands to support the blankets out of camera range. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

December 16th, 2008, 12:32 AM	#4
Frank Reco New Boot Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 9	Sorry if I wasnt clear. I used to use my on camera mic, but that doesnt cut it. I bought a wireless lav to mic 1 person for a monolog or soliloque(forgive my spelling..). This reduced the echo from the 1 person that is speaking a good deal. Other times up to 4 people do a scene at once. This is where my problem is. I do not use the lav in this case. I switch to the on cam mic, but i need a better solution than this. I will be able to get just about as many mics as I need. Getting the equipment is not so much a problem, as is what to use and how to use it to reduce echo. Change of location is not an option bc the person who is running it requests this room. I have no influence over this decision. I will def pad up the room. Thanks for the advice so far...

December 17th, 2008, 09:11 PM	#7
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Conventional wisdom is that hanging blankets need to cover two perpendicular walls to be effective. In practice, this is rarely possible, at least for me, due to lighting, time involved, or whatever. It's definitely worth it though, if you can manage it. As mentioned, the on-camera mic is the worst possible choice for this situation.

December 17th, 2008, 10:19 PM	#8
Frank Reco New Boot Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 9	I have sound resistant blankets. Today was one of the days that I was in the room, but I was unable to hang them bc of a lack of time. Im not sure how to hang them either. I cannot pin, staple, nail, tack or any other thing that would go into the walls. The blankets are too heavy to tape...It seems like the only option left is to support them with a c-stand or something similar. I dont have anything to suspend them like this. This really isnt a huge production and I am starting to move out of my budget, so I will just lay some blankets around and thats the best I can do. I really appreciate the advice from all of you. Thanks to all.

December 18th, 2008, 07:33 AM	#10
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Dean, what do you use for the cross beam when you do that?

December 18th, 2008, 11:33 AM	#11
Dean Sensui Inner Circle Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 2,054	Marco... I just use a 1/2" diameter aluminum tube. The sound blanket is fastened with spring clips. Fast, easy and cheap. __________________ Dean Sensui Exec Producer, Hawaii Goes Fishing

December 18th, 2008, 02:29 PM	#12
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Interesting. How do you attach the crossbeam to the stands?

December 18th, 2008, 11:43 PM	#13
Bill Davis Trustee Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ 85260 Posts: 1,538	Mafer Clamps. (aka Super Clamps) (Tho there are probably 100 other ways to do this as well.)

December 19th, 2008, 05:28 PM	#14
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	new trick, siamese a pair of 40" arms ( one grabs the other facing opposite direction ) in a C stand. makes for a nice wide reach, grip clip as usual. even just a single 40" arm will do, better then nothing, problably sitting there on the set to start with. you could also use a 4 / 6 / 8 ft side from a frame, mount that on a C and hang 2 blankets. going with the DYI approach, I'd get a 1" - 1"1/2 peice of Aluminum pipe or square tube, drill 5/8 holes in the ends so they line up vertically, and you can just drop it onto the top of a stand. I'd drill the middle too. no clamps required.

December 22nd, 2008, 04:45 AM	#15
Andrew Dean Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Motukarara, New Zealand Posts: 475	i'm a big gear whore, but... if its a choice between not hanging the blankets due to cost of proper gear vs. using ghetto gear, i'm all about the ghetto. screw brooms together. tie tree branches together with rope... anything you can use to get padding on the wall will help. Yeah, c-stands with a truss would be ideal... but i guarantee if you get creative you can get some fabric on the walls for less than the cost of a trip to starbucks. Might be ugly, but sound isnt about looking pretty. Photos of professional audio guys will reinforce that point. OY! :,>