Right, unless your recording settings are really off.

Bill, you know you are now DVinfo's H4n specialist, right? :)

One last question from me... I'm a total audio recorder newbie... does it have a "full auto" type mode, or any sort of pre-sets that will get me reliable, good clean sound (from external mics recording dialogue) so I don't have to buy a book on sound recording to get great results from it?

Thanks!

I'm really not an expert on audio. I am more of a barely educated layman.
The H4n does not have a 'full auto' mode per sec. There are some recording functions such as "Lo Cut" and "Comp/Limiter" that are handy to have at an live event. I do not know much about the MTR function. There maybe more adjustments there. I think the MTR is more for the musical application this equipment was originally built for.

Hi Dylan. No, there is no "full auto" mode, there is actually no such thing. There is a lot of info on setting audio levels available on this forum, you can probably glean a lot of info in a short amount of time. John.

Another barely educated layman chiming in to say that with any of the better DVRs you should be able to get very good or better results after reading the manual and doing a little digging here. And, a great thing about DVRs is that you can experiment for free - it costs nothing to erase the card! :D

Interesting Tascam Recorders
 

Those looking at the H4n might also want to take a look at some of the new Tascam units:

TASCAM

What I find interesting about these is that they seem more oriented toward pure audio recording than the 'musician tool' approach of the Zoom.

Note the analog audio limiters - a plus if you are recording 16 bit.

The new DR-100 looks especially interesting to me.

-Mike

Hi guys, I'm looking for a solution record wedding vows. There has been a lot of articles about the H4n, Sony PMD 50 and Marantz models and I'm so confused! My main applications are:

- Placing it on the podium/table to record dialogues between the solemniser/pastor and the couple. I alr have a senny wireless lav that I hook on the groom. It picks up the bride and groom reasonably well but not the pastor if he is too far away. I have heard the recording from the H2 via ME66 shortgun and onboard EX1 mic. The H2 was a clear winner! A lot of noise gets cut out and the dual/four channel onboard mic is great for recording both the couple and solemniser voice. In fact, I think I could have one channel on board and the other channel feeding in via XLR from the wireless.

- To record directly from the mixer. I read somewhere that recorders with 1/8" jack usually cant handle signal voltages from mixers due to the onboard pre amp limitations. I'm not sure about this thou. Do you record directly from the mixer using the 1/4" inputs? I normally use a IFP iriver directly to the line but I have experienced a lot of clipping, or very low levels at times. I'm not sure if it is due to the iriver's poor pre amp or the mixer settings. All I know I set the iriver line input.

- To record from an external condensor mic . I have a AKG C3000B for Voice overs which is really nice but if the H4n can work with it like the Lexicon Lambda I have, it would be a great bonus but not a must.

Budget wise I'm leaning towards the H2 but I could prob sell the Lexicon to go for the H4n or even the Sony/Marantz if they meets my needs well. Appreciate all your inputs.

Mike, I agree...Tascam is worth taking a look at before buying a recorder. The only substantial difference I see is the H4n will recorder both inputs simultaneously. I am not sure what the difference is between analog limiter and Comp/limiter. Something tells me it's basically the same, but I'll let some other more knowledgable person comment on that one.

Agree with you Mike. Now we need a shoot off - Zoom H4N verses the Tascam DR-100

Well, there are two different comparasins here:

digital limiter vs analog limiter - analog is preferable because it helps avoid clipping pre-converter.

comp vs limiter - a limiter is a compressor with a really high ratio.


Hope that helps.

It's all about your specific use, I think.

The only substantial difference I see is the H4n will recorder both inputs simultaneously.

I initially really wanted that. But after some thought about the actual circumstances of my expected use, I realized that if I really needed four channels at the same time, it would probably be far more convenient and flexible to have two separate unts, even if cheaper ones, for that use.

I am not sure what the difference is between analog limiter and Comp/limiter.

The compresor/limiter in the Zoom is a digital function - it happens after the A to D converter. This means you can have a perfectly fine input that does not overload the mic preamp, but does overload the a/d converter.

At 16 bits, any halfway decent mic and line circuitry will have much greater dynamic range (110+ db) than the 16 bit converters (96 db max). If the limiter/compressor is analog, it does its job before the converter, so you can safely run your inputs much hotter without fear of overload - maximizing your S/N ratio.

The fully pro gear like the Sound Devices preamps take this even one step further, putting the limiter right into the feedback loop of the mic preamp itself - actively varying the gain - which makes these pretty near impossible to overload.

If you are recording at 24 bits this is less important.

A shootout would be great - send me these and I would be happy to do one ;-)

It's really hard to compare these with the information given in the specs, it is just too limited. Tascam for example, gives a noise spec for line inputs and leaves it off for the mic inputs, which of course is where it really counts!

They need to be tested on a proper bench with controlled circumstances. You can't tell much from random bloggers with no controls and who knows what kind of setup.

What I really want is a device with two quiet, individually controlled mic inputs, with proper mic gain controls and pad, and a smooth analog compressor/limiter with an LA-2 or dbx like curve and simplicity of control. It could easily be done in these price ranges, so far none are quite there, as far as I can tell.

I don't want 'ALC', the only feature of ALC I have ever found useful is the off switch. It is possible to do that right, but none I have ever seen in a camera or a small device like this has ever done so.

-Mike

To record directly from the mixer. I read somewhere that recorders with 1/8" jack usually cant handle signal voltages from mixers ...

Whose/which mixer?

Many mixers reference output level is +4 DBu. Most consumer gear expects a reference level of -10 DBu. The right way to handle this difference is by padding down the input of the consumer device to drop +4 down to -10 with a resistive pad. If instead, you are tryng to use the level control on the consumer device, you are very likely to overload its input stage.

Some mixers also have a -10 level switch, but of course if this is a house mixer you will have no control over this.

In a pinch, you can just drop the mixer main fader down, this will make the mixer meters fairly useless, but will have less risk of overloading consumer level inputs.


Budget wise I'm leaning towards the H2 but I could prob sell the Lexicon to go for the H4n or even the Sony/Marantz if they meets my needs well. Appreciate all your inputs.

The mic pres in the Lexicon would likely be much better than those in either the H2 or the H4n. Given that you thought the H2 worked well on one of your primary uses, I'd probably just buy that - and two proper pads! - and keep the Lexicon, which has many uses.

-Mike

Depending on the mixer, you can also tap off a lower amount of signal using the Aux Sends to prevent overdriving an input if a pad isn't available. This will allow running the mixer's main output at full level, allowing the meters to work at normal visual levels. Of course, most field mixers don't have this function, but house or music mixers would if they aren't already being used up for effects or monitors.

Whose/which mixer?
This is pretty important - and likewise to understand how people are using mixers for sound reinforcement. By and large, a live sound operator just doesn't care about running levels per the meters, they only care about how it sounds in the speakers, that they not overload their own mic preamps.

Which means that you might get anything from such a mixer, from very low line level to very hot... Most small and medium churchs won't have a sound op - the pastor knows how to turn things on, and to set the knobs to the marks that they are always set to.

There's been lots of discussion about how to equip to be able to walk into a facility and patch to their board, including:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/all-thing...ion-audio.html

I agree, VERY interesting. But where are the reviews? I can't find a one.

If the Tascam DR-100 does everything the manufacturer says (TASCAM DR-100 Portable Recorder Gets Less Offensive Headline At Winter NAMM 2009 | Gearwire), and does it well, it is a killer product, especially at that price point. I wonder if it's too good to be true???

I agree, VERY interesting. But where are the reviews? I can't find a one.

I can't either, but I think I read somewhere that these are not actually shipping until the end of the month.

So maybe we just have to wait a bit.

Yes but neither of these units can record 4 channels of audio via built in mics and external XLR inputs like the H4n can. If they did I would drop the bones on them in a second over the Zooms. As I trust Tascam's ability to build a proper unit with great pre amps and limiters.

Aaah! I just pulled the trigger on a Zoom H4n 12 hours ago!

Had I known about the Tascam, I probably would have gone with it, since I don't really need the 4ch recording of the Zoom. Oh well, c'est la vie.

H4n initial impressions from an H4 user
 

Tascam seems to be $100 more in street price - but when a manufacturer says it that usually means that $450 will be the minimum advertised price. It may go for less. For that, you also get a remote.

Wow, does the Tascam look like a reengineered H4?

I've been using the H4 for several years, my H4n arrived yesterday. I'll do some more in-depth reviewing, but briefly:
* This box seems much sturdier. The microphones are mounted in a chunck of metal that comprises the front part of the body - very beefy.
* The box now has its own tripod socket - no more silly plastic cradle. This feature has actually proved to be very useful for stereo music recording, which I do all the time.
* In addition to the built-in mics, and the phantom-able XLR-1/4" dual inputs, the H4n now also has a 3.5mm mic socket with switchable plugin power. That's a nice addition, especially for those who have some mics like the small Sony Mid-Side that was so popular with minidisc recording. Also, an MS decoder, for those who want to decode to stereo on the fly rather than in post.
* Gone are the mic sensitivity switches. I've not found any pads - instead, there is now an easily adjustable hardware control for recording level.
* All controls are beefier, feel more solid, and promise to hold up well. The original H4's controls were nowhere near this solid.
* Menu is now much easier to read, and the regular recording/playback display too.
* Menu structure has been reworked. Those tools that non-musicians don't need? They'll never see them, they won't be in the way, they don't take up space in the controls. The new menu system is very easy and intuitive.
* As anyone who has read the manual knows, the H4n doesn't have a full-featured timecode generator. You don't get to choose DF vs. NDF or any other modes - it's really just a clock, albeit a much better clock than the H4. However, the file system has been greatly improved with choices to include recording date in the filename, as well as the timestamp in the BWF header. Is this a fully featured pro sync recorder for double system sound? No. Will its timestamp system get your takes matched up with your prosumer camcorder so you can do fine sync in the NLE? Easily.

All in all, it seems to be a big improvement over the H4. Zoom seems to have listened well to their users and created a fine 2nd generation product. Well worth $50 more (street) IMHO. I'm looking forward to receiving the (optional) remote, currently backordered.

Those impressions gathered in 30 minutes of poking at it at my desk. I'll have a chance to use it tomorrow and will write back. So far, so good! I expect I'll be selling my original H4 with high capacity rechargeable battery pack next week... Alas, the external power voltage has changed in the H4n.

Yes but neither of these units can record 4 channels of audio via built in mics and external XLR inputs like the H4n can.

I am curious about what specific circumstance that would be essential in?

I don't actually need to make a decision for some months, but my current thinking is to buy something like the Tascam unit, plus an inexpensive Zoom H2 which seems really optimal for catching ambience, but could in a pinch be used for dialog, hidden mic, etc.

H2 - no hassle quickie four channel use with built in mics.

Tascam - Better quality 2 channel unit for most voice work, plus both could be used at once, widely separated even. More flexibility this way.

But everyones uses are different. I haven't really decided between them yet. Should have some good info from Dylan Couper soon, it seems. ;-)

If I really needed more tracks, I'm thinking something like this:

MOTU.com - Traveler-mk3

plugged into my MacBook would be handier. Look at the sync and other capabilities on that.
Also runs on batteries, has decent metering, real knobs, etc. A dat could be used to record, everything would be digital and in sync. Even better, if I could find a four track flash recorder that accepted digital in, well, that would be a pretty serious recording setup small enough to fit into a briefcase with room to spare for the mics.

-Mike

Good news and bad news
 

The good news:
The BWF formatting Zoom has included carries markers created on the H4n all the way to the timeline of my NLE (Vegas Pro 8.0c)!!!!

The bad news:
As of yet, the BWF timestamp is not correctly written in the file header. As far as timecode syncing in Vegas goes, it's not happening yet as it should, because without that timestamp Vegas doesn't place the media anywhere but at the start. As you can see on the attached screen grabs, the file creation date/time is written to the header, so workarounds are possible. (latest H4n system 1.2)

I'm contacting zoom tech support - I sure hope and expect this is something they can fix.

Some questions for Seth while he waits for answers from zoom tech support:

Any chance this is a Vegas bug?

Have you tried a dynamic mic, does it seem quiet enough?

Have you tried recording all four channels, does that seem to work ergonomically?

How about the little mini jack to replace the internal mics with external mics - is this useful, performance reasonable?

Have you tried to use the compresser? Impressions?

Bill made this test: I just completed a sync test with my camera and the H4n, and after one hour of record time there is NO noticable difference to the ear. Looking at the timeline waveform the H4n appears to be slower by one or two frames. Are your results on your unit the same?


Good that the musician functions ae not in your face. I'd gladly trade all those reverbs and guitar effects for a sync function that would probably take 1/10 the processor power.

These manufacturers are really competing, diifferentiating their lines. Now if we could just convince one to differentiate a model for US...

Ooh thks for the great advice and links Seth.

H4N Impressions
 

I have to echo Seth's quick review of the H4N. I have an H4 and just received my H4N. I think it is worthy upgrade to the H4. The ruggedness, better menus and better display alone make the difference for me. I have yet to spend much time checking the audio quality in detail, but my quick recordings sound better than the H4 using the built-in mics in both cases.

Seth, keep us posted on the BWF issue (I'm a Vegas user as well).

The Tascam looked interesting but it's almost $100 more. B&H, my normal supplier, did not have it stock when I was there last week, so I found an H4N on ebay (yes I know a little risky) and they threw in a free 16GB SD card + ebay was having a one day 10% off coupon.

In that the file from the Sound Devices 744t works fine with Vegas' interpretation of BWF header info, and that there have been no reports I'm aware of regarding Vegas errors with timecode sync, I'm pretty sure this is an error in the way that the H4n writes the BWF headers. No response yet from Zoom, I hope this will be fixable.

I did a quick recording with an SM58 (dynamic mic) at 16/48 in a quiet room and put it up on the big monitors, to the ear it is plenty quiet enough. Original recording peaked voice at about -15db, noise level not seen on the meters and not heard, after peak normalization to -0.1db, noise was down around -50db and barely perceptible. So, umm... that would mean that I had room noise and/or self noise down in the -60 to -70 range in a room in a house = I think that's pretty good; they have improved the preamps.

I've run out of time for a couple days - hope to run a sync test later in the week. I don't have any mics that terminate in mini-plugs, and don't have immediate use for 4-ch. recording, but I am interested to see how they work and will report back.

Peter:

When you have a chance... Inquiring minds want to know:

1. How are the microphone preamps? Quiet and dynamic or noisy and anemic? Please plug in a quality shotgun or lavaliere and give us your opinion, using 48V phantom of course.
2. Headphone output, hiss filled or quiet?

The H4 sounds great when used line in with a mixer but the mic preamps were lousy, noisy and filled with hiss in the recording as well as the headphone output had excessive hiss. Zoom almost has the recipe correct if they can overcome these two deficiencies. The features, controls, etc. are already there. I stopped by a music store today and did some critical listening of the H4 and I was not impressed, but I do have hope for the H4N since Zoom knew what it needed to improve to win the race.

Thanks,

Dan

Sounds like they definitely responded to the criticism of the H4.

If it will do that with a 58, it should be pretty good for any close miced dialog situation.

Thanks for your efforts.

-Mike

zoom h4n v. tascam dr-100 shootoff
 

Ask and ye shall receive.

Brad Linder's blog: Zoom H4n review

Look at the last few reader comments.

Somewhat surprising, but the Zoom H4n seems to be beating the Tascam handily. Don't know who these people are, of course, but they're the only user reviews I can find of the Tascam dr-100.

Hi Greg:

Just stumbled across that. I think I am now sold on the H4N over the Tascam. I listened to his samples with the condenser mic. I think a lot of people writing reviews on these little recorders are musicians and engineers and are pretty discerning about the sound quality. If you compare Brad's dialogue samples with the typical camcorder's sounds, the Zoom H4N blows away almost any camcorder's sound quality.

I was pretty impressed with what I heard out of the Zoom H4N and will be ordering it. The Tascam is said to not sound as good and has some operational glitches that don't work as well as the Zoom either. And the Zoom is $80.00 less.

Thanks,

Dan

Yup...this is why we wait for reviews. I have seen Tascam make some amazingly good bang for the buck stuff...and some real turkeys. :-)

Another real interesting device is the M-Audio MicroTrack II. Like the H4n, this is this companies second try after some serious errors first time around - and much better for it.

It looks much closer to my 'please leave off the guitar effects' approach. It has a battery problem (can be worked around) but: has limiter, apparently very good preamps, has NO internal mics (great for some uses), is really small, and...this is really interesting to me...has a digital input. Think 'digital in from field mixer'. Does bwf, can set cues.

The digital in might be really interesting in regards to sync. Since the internal clock on the converters MUST sync to the incoming digital stream, there MAY be a way to record analog while the clock is synced to the digital stream. Which could create synced sound (phase locked) given a few external things like a video to word clock sync box.

I see this for around $299.

An interesting Craig Anderton review:

Review: M-Audio MicroTrack II

Also:

Review: Edirol R-09HR & M-Audio MicroTrack II | O'Reilly Media


-Mike

Mike,

The Micro Track II sounds pretty good, and it's at Amazon for $269, ... but it doesn't have XLR connections. I don't know enough about adapters -- or if there even are adapters -- to connect it to my Oktava condenser, Phantom powered mic. I was considering the Sony PCM D-50, which some rave about, but it doesn't have XLRs either and the adapter needed to use XLR cables cost as much as the recorder itself.

the adapter needed to use XLR cables cost as much as the recorder itself.


No, no...not in the case of the MicroTrack at least. This is a straight stereo 1/4 to XLR adapter, no transformer, electronics, etc. Should be, like...$10 maybe?
...

Example:

GXP143 Hosa Audio Adapter-Quarter Inch Male to XLR3 Female $6.99

Considering how small the Microtrack is, you could almost get the male version of the adapter above and jam it right into the mic like a mic plug wireless.

No, that's specifically for the Sony recorder. The Sony XLR-1 mic adapter. It's $450 and is as big as the recorder itself. Crazy.

So a $6.99 adapter can give me the same capability (with a non-Sony recorder, of course) as the Sony adapter?

I don't know how close together the 1/4" input jacks are on the MicroTrack. So it may not be possible to get two of those large diameter XLR to 1/4" TRS adapters in there side-by-side.
If that's the case, it would not cost much to make adapter cables, (or new XLR-F to 1/4" TRS mic cables) which may be better anyway considering the weight of an XLR+adapter, stressing the plastic body of the MicroTrack.. which I assume is plastic.

So a $6.99 adapter can give me the same capability (with a non-Sony recorder, of course) as the Sony adapter?

It appears to be so.

You are referring to this, I assume:

"The optional XLR-1 mic adapter ($499.95) runs on four AA batteries, providing phantom-powered XLR inputs. It bolts to the back of the D50."

Wow. I think someone at Sony seriously misjudged their market this time.

Yes, phantom power is built in to the MicroTrack, H4n, and others. I think I need to sit down after reading that price ;-)

I agree with Rick about the cabling on the MicroTrack. I would probably solder two right angle plugs to a couple feet of lightweight Mogami twin pair, so as not to stress the connectors.

-Mike

Dan:

I agree with you, when I had the H4, the best recordings were line level in using an outboard mixer. Mic input as you mentioned was pretty noisy.

So far I've only tried the onboard H4N mics and subjectively it sounds better than the same recording with the H4 onboard mics. I don't have the H4 anymore, so I can't do more side by side recording/listening.

Ergonomically, the H4N is so much better though.

Sounds like from a later msg that you are now convinced and ordered one!

The Sony adapter is an actual phantom power supply and preamp add-on for the recorder, not just a cable connector adapter, hence the much higher price, but it's true, the bottom line is the same. The Microtrack provides phantom on its TRS jacks but the Sony recorder doesn't have a phantom supply, hence the need for the circuitry in the XLR-1 to add it on. The XLR-1 is more akin to a Juicedlink than it is to a cable adapter. As to whether the $6.99 adapter will work with to connect an XLR mic to any non-Sony recorder, it all hinges on whether the mic has an internal battery for power and/or the recorder in question provides phantom. In the case of the Microtrack, it works because the recorder's TRS inputs are 1/4 inch, balanced, mic-level, with phantom. This actualy is quite unusual - 1/4 inch inputs are most often line level and may be either balanced for device interconnects or high-impedence, unbalanced instrument inputs intended to work with guitar pickups and the like.

...Sony adapter is an actual phantom power supply and preamp

You would think so. But read closely the description.

No preamp. Transformers. Totally passive device for the audio.

At that price, they had better be some top of the line Jensen transformers in there, too.

Pretty limited market for this, I should think, since you can buy a Fostex FR2LE for $600. And those two together seem to be pushing size and weight for a 'handheld' just a bit.

-Mike

Zoom has responded on the BWF timestamp issue with "our technicians are looking into it".

I remain hopeful!

Further use of the H4n has confirmed my initial impressions and more:

The new display is nothing short of awesome - you really can see the meters and status from several feet away, even with old eyes like mine. As with the H4, I've switched the display light to "on", which of course uses more battery. The factory default switches off the light after 15 seconds.

That teeny built-in speaker is very handy for quick recording checks.

The 3.5mm mic input worked with ease - just plug a mic in, select plugin power if needed, and away you go. I ran some recordings with a small sony MS mic that was very popular in the minidisc era - it worked just fine.

I've been a little hesitant about the lack of pads for input attenuation. Haven't had a chance to properly benchmark this, but at this point I've recorded moderately loud sound with the internal mics, with the sony mic mentioned above, with a condensor instrument mic using phantom, and with a dynamic Shure SM58. I found recording levels between 50 and 70 to be entirely adequate. So far, I've not needed any padding - the condensor mic was close-micing a loud instrument; I'll speculate that turning on phantom may engage a 12db pad, as condensors tend to run hotter than dynamics, but don't really know - will test that one of these days, as well as the 1/4" inputs (which were the only way to appropriately bring in line-level on the H4).

Menus have proved to be very intuitive, a great redesign. I can find stuff when I need it very quickly, and the old thumbwheel that is used for selection of menu items is greatly improved and very quick to use.

The "stamina" mode is a good thing! Unfortunately, it restricts you to recording wav/bwf at 16/44. It would be nice for use video guys and gals if it would also work at 16/48. But yes, it does (about) double battery life.

I found radioshack parts to build an external high-capacity NiMH battery pack that was so handy for the old H4 - this is not going to be quite as easy for the H4n. Of course 5v NiMH packs do exist, you just don't find them at radioshack, apparently there are some RC aircraft control systems that run off 5v. Web sellers have the batts, but I'll be checking RC/hobby shops.

The Linder blog referenced above takes issue with the SD cardslot door. I tried to eject the card with the door closed - it can be done, but on my H4n it takes a very deliberate action, a hard push with a thumbnail directly in the center of the door. I don't think this is going to be a problem, at least for my use.

All in all I am very happy with features & the results of the limited use I've done so far.