On re-reading, you're right. They state "Totally passive signal path" BUT it does provide the 48v phantom as well so there is a power supply in there. It better be a darned good along with the best transformers made for that price!

The 3.5mm mic input worked with ease - just plug a mic in, select plugin power if needed, and away you go. I ran some recordings with a small sony MS mic that was very popular in the minidisc era - it worked just fine.

Please confirm this: you can turn the 'plugin power' off?
If so, that means this could be used as a general purpose input. With a resistive pad, as a line input. With something like a JT-13K6-C transformer ( JENSEN TRANSFORMERS, INC. - MICROPHONE INPUT TRANSFORMERS ), a quiet, balanced, dynamic mic input. (You get 13 db of 'free' noiseless gain this way.) No phantom, but it doesn't cost $499.95 either. ;-)

No input pad - Lots of mics have pads built in, plus this is a cheap and simple thing to add to the cable anyway. Not a serious worry to me.

This keeps looking better.

-Mike

I'm talking about the Zoom H4n here:
Yes, the plugin power is defaulted to "off", it can be turned on in the menus (right next to phantom power controls).
The H4n has a good assortment of inputs - 3.5mm "consumer", dual XLR, dual 1/4", as well as its two built in cardoid xy mics. The XLRs provide dual "nice quiet dynamic mic inputs"!

As to using the 3.5mm as a general purpose input, I suppose so, if the signal is at the right level - but then we've also got those 1/4" inputs which were very handy on the original H4.

Regarding built-in pads - I'm trying to apply my experience from the original H4, which had three levels of pad (H, M, L) on the internal mics and the external inputs, which were very much needed because the recording level control was awful. Now, on the H4n, we've got recording level control which seems to be pretty good... my hope is that I won't need padding, internal or external, period. Will probably work on this over the weekend.

Finally put my $ on the H4n 3 hrs ago and its a BLAST. The onboard mic works pretty well so far, picking up voices clearly even with a loud TV blasting in the background. It also works perfectly with the condensor AKG-3000B. There is an option for mono mix so I can record on 2 channels in stereo mode directly into it, making it a portable Voice over station!

Still trying to figure out if auto of fixed rec levels is better. I must say I'm very pleased with it so far. Built quality is good and price is reasonable. The only thing is it doesnt come with the mini tripod stand by default. But you could get a great package with that on Ebay.

I'm enjoying my H4N as well. Since I play first and read manual later. It's been all the joy of exploration the past day or two. I'm amazed at how much you get for the money - not only feature wise, but quality wise. As a GUI/SUI SME by trade, it's great to see someone in electronics getting the user interface right for a change. It's not perfect but better than the rest and Sony is always a PAIN IMHO.
Just tested it doing some VO. Will grab some field recordings to back up my crappy HV20 takes.

For VO I use my DIY version of the PortaBooth and I picked up a terrific tripod from Amazon that is a height adjustable desk mike as well. Make & Model on request since I can't remember it.

I'll make a 'deadkitten' wind cheater for this next.

Funny you should mention that because my Ebay purchased H4n arrived today (along with mini tripod and 16GB Transcend SDHC card).

I agree with all that has been said so far, as the pre amps do appear improved, the construction and display are MUCH better and robust, manual controls are easily accessible now. And most important the circuitry seems to be laid out properly. So when you adjust teh level input down, then the input gain actually is lowered. So if your audio clips, do this will prevent clipping, rather than giving you lower recorded clipped audio like with the H4 or H2. This might be why there are no L/M/H gain switches on the unit. I must say though that I like the option of having switchable gain on the unit. I'm going to have to do some testing to see which Limiter setting (I have heard Limiter 2 Concert) is best for loud environments.

I am curious of one thing though. I am planning to use the H4n to record PA stacks at receptions, and also use the onboard mics to record ambient reaction audio. I plan on using the 1/8 "Line Out" port to send a wireless feed to my camera for backup/sync purposes. I wonder if I am recording in 4 Channel mode (using 2 mics and built in mics), which signal is being sent out of the "Line Out". Is it a mixed down 4 channel or simply 2 channel from either the onboard mics or XLR/1/8 input. If it send the onboard mics only, then that would suck, and do me no good, as I would want the miced PA stack and not the crowd reaction onbaord mics. If it's a mixed down 4 channel, then that's ok.

Gonna have to test this one.

Also check the line out to see if it contains any delay since your intention is to send that signal to the camera. A significant delay would require slipping the camera audio in relation to the matching video when you edit.

Interesting thought on the delay. Would be easy to fix in post, but I wonder as well. I also wonder how well the audio recorded to the unit inself will stay in sync over time with the audio from the camera. Time will tell............

Ben

Well, I don't rely on using very long stretches of audio for my edits.
So, even though sync is easy t do in post, I don't worry about drift too often.

As for delay, his is also not a concern, as I'm not working with timecode for the audio from the H4n and my camera. I simply line up the waveforms in my NLE and I'm good to go.

What I think Jay meant by delay was not recorder to camera delay, but actual delay of the audio track on the video itself. If the audio is being delayed at the H4 and then sent over the wireless to the camera it may be out enough to cause a lip sync issue. Still fixable, but I have never had to adjust the audio track from the camera's sound to match the video track from the same camera. But in this case I think its possible to have to if its delayed enough. Though I have never heard of it being and issue.

Ben

Ah, now I see what he's talking about.

I'm not too worried about this, as my plan to use a wireless and the H4n's output is just for reception use only, where I would use 2 mics to mic the PA stack, one on woofer and one on tweeter, and the onboard mics for ambient audio. This would generally be for music only.

So if I need audio for things such as toasts and the like, I could simply adjust in post, by using the onboard shotguns mics audio waveform.

But I have done this in the past using a M-Audio Microtrack, a Zoom H4, as well as an Edirol R44 recorder, and the results on tape from the wireless signal to my camera were in perfect sync. So while this might be a possibility, based on my past experience with other recorders, it's probably not a concern.

Just got my H4n yesterday. So far, the best part has been reading the "Engrish" in the manual. :)
However, I'm also happy with the sound quality for the price.

I had to laugh at that one, as this has to be one of the worst manuals I have ever seen. ;)

John what exactly does the MS matrix do.
I notice that it seems to enable you to pad your signal up or down. Is this correct.
Could one use the MS Matrix to pad the signal on the onboard mics and/or inputs?

4-channel independent record levels!
 

The MS Matrix appears to be designed to decode while recording, allowing you to use an MS mic but record in stereo.

This isn't going to be good when using other mics. The decode is Left=Mid+Side, Right=Mid-Side. The ratio of side to mid in those formulas is what determines stereo spread, *edit, and is what the MS level control adjusts*. So, no, this isn't a good choice to get indpendent control of recording levels.

For me, I'd much rather record M/S straight, then decode in post, where I can evaluate spread.
*************
I've been fooling around with the 4ch and MTR modes. MTR appears to strictly be a mixdown mode that will let you mix various files and bounce; I'm not likely to get into that further.

4ch. is more interesting. In that mode, one can record two stereo pairs - the built-in mics (or, probably, the 3.5mm input) and the external XLR-1/4" inputs. Yes, the volume of each pair is linked. However, you can adjust the recording volume of each pair independently from the other pair, using the hardware record-level control.

HOWEVER!!!
4ch. mode also enables a new menu choice, "mixer". You get a little 4-ch. software mixer, that works in the 4ch. recording mode, and, YES, it has a balance control on each pair.
******************************************
*YES WE CAN* adjust each of the 4 available input levels independently using the mixer!
******************************************

H4n Software Update
 

New system update posted (version 1.3):

Download Software

Bwf timestamp
 

Seth...did you ever hear anything more on the bwf timestamp issue you refered to in post # 62 of this thread?

I received a nice email on 4/1 stating that their engineers were looking into it and that they would get back to me. Any fix did not make it into system 1.3, which was released just a few days after my email.

I remain hopeful that we'll see this addressed in system 1.4, whenever it is released.

I'm still pretty impressed with the H4n, solid, professional performance, very well thought-out in so many ways.

After going over the info in this thread I'm almost ready to get the H4n...almost...if the fix for the bwf timestamp had been in the latest update, would have done it immediately...tax return is comming... so it wont be long after that. Several posters' seem to be inclined to get it from BH for the added security of warranty... but some have purchased from ebay listed companies...if anyone whos gotten theirs from the ebay stores has any good or bad opinions on their purchase from these venders, I'd appreciate any feedback.

i did my first live speech recording on Sunday and it turned out a little low on the levels. I had set the level to 65 which is too low. there was a ceiling fan which was creating too much distortion in the onboard mics during my setting. They turned it lower but I didnt pull up the levels.

The speech was pretty clear but there is a humming noise which i cleaned up with noise reduction Fx. I understand this humming is due to my low setting of the level. I was worried to set it on auto levels as I hear of distortion cases. I guess I have to pull it up a little in future.

Would the Tascam HD P2 be a better recording option than the Zoom H4n?

Tascam HDP2 is different. Better? Certainly for some uses.

HDP2:
Also records to flash memory (CF)
Actual knobs and dials are quicker/easier to use on the fly.
It's way bigger, 3 or 4 times the size of the H4n.
Designed to use in a location audio bag, knobs & display can be seen/operated in a bag.
Way more money, about $800 US street price.
More flexible as to timecode, can jam to a camera or TC gen.
Has a sync input and will clock to video sync from cam or syncgen.
Digital ins and outs.
Can plug in a PS2 keyboard for transport control, file-naming & such (handy on a cart or studio).
More robust set of editing tools onboard.
About 4x the power consumption, expensive if you're on AA batt power.
Generally good preamps and audio quality.

Now, a lot of the above doesn't make much difference for a lot of casual recording, but could be very handy, especially if your cam has TC out, or, you're ready to jam to a TC generator. Still though, this is probably aimed at low-end pro rather than hi-end prosumer.

H4n:
Way smaller.
Way less expensive, about $350 US street price.
Extremely basic time-of-day TC capabilities - good for rough sync, but have to do fine sync in the editor (however, even with full pro TC gear fine sync frequently needs to be touched)
Built-in stereo mic pair that really isn't bad.
More flexible on inputs - XLR, 1/4", 3.5mm.
Can record 4 input channels (built-in mics plus xlr-1/4")
2 AA batts get you 6 hrs, or, 11 hrs in stamina mode (16/44 only).
Recording to WAV/BWAV and various MP3.
Generally good preamps & audio quality.

So, what were you looking for in an audio recorder? Small and fast? H4n. Better integration into TC workflow and more "pro" appearance & operation? HDP2.

After close reading of the HDP2 manual, I'm still not quite sure if its TC gen will do standalone time-of-day code. Perhaps someone knows for sure and will enlighten us.

" Now, a lot of the above doesn't make much difference for a lot of casual recording, but could be very handy, especially if your cam has TC out, or, you're ready to jam to a TC generator. Still though, this is probably aimed at low-end pro rather than hi-end prosumer. "

Then...would the H4n fall into the category of "high end prosumer" ?

137 pages! Sounds like the manual is bigger than the recorder. :)

Ty Ford

Pro and prosumer markets
 

Yes?

We use the language differently in different circumstances. If you want to be perceived as the owner/operator of fully pro systems that "everyone" knows represent the state of the art, get yourself a petrol bag and stuff it with a sound devices recorder, a sound devices mixer, and lectrosonics wireless. Better get a battery system, a timecode slate, a listen system, and upgrade your mics at the same time. $12,000 US to $20,000, or more! That's not the end of equipment, either; go above 4ch. recording and now we're into some serious money!

Of course, now you've only bought credibility for your hardware. Establishing your own credibility as a location recordist is a different and more important thing.

That's a game with its own rules and conventions, and informs us as to what is truely "professional", which, in this case, means that someone can earn their living as a location recordist if they have the skills and can borrow, rent, or own the equipment.

I've used some of that equipment. I've not used the Tascam, but to all reports it is a credible entry-level recorder.

The H4n, by comparison, comes to us from the amazing home-recording market, which places it squarely in the prosumer category. $350 US. For that price, you get a very solid little recorder, that on a good day, with a good mic, and in the right hands can produce a recording hard to distinguish from real pro gear.

But the H4n is not going to be one of the choices for someone paid to record double-system location sound 10+ days per month. They might start out with the Tascam, but probably don't stay with it when they can afford to move up.

For all that, I'm really enjoying the H4n, just as I did the H4, keeping it with my musical instruments to record rehearsals, collecting wild sound, location recording of VO, and occasional double system sound at events. For me, little, light, handy, and inexpensive is very good. When I need something else I rent.

Well said...thank you Seth.

I just got my H4N tonight. I must say that it is amazingly intuitive!

I plan on using it with my D90 for personal short films.

I'll give my 2 cents of a review after I play with it for a while

~Jay

Seth,

Where did you buy it and how much did you pay for it?

Thanks,

Ty Ford

Jay, I think that the H4n will be a nice compliment to your D90.
On a side note, how do you like working with the D90?
Any desire to move to the Canon 5D, over the D90, or is the D90 working nice for you?

I picked one up from fullcompass.com for $349. First use was as second system sound with two AT4073a's to cover a small venue stage play. Most impressed.

There is an incredible desire to move over to the 5D, but this is just a hobby for me, not my job. The D90 offers something that high end consumer HD cameras do not-- a film look.

The D90 like most DSLRs are terrible video cameras, they just happen to make beautiful videos in the right situations. I bought the D90 as a still camera first. For me the purpose of a camera is primarily to capture memories, not create art. Sometimes video is better at capturing memories than a still photo, but I didn't want to carry two cameras. I grew accustomed to the convenience of a point and shoot digital camera that has good still and poor, but better than nothing video.

The D90 is an outstanding still camera - almost professional. In the right situation it can also make outstanding film-like video!

The reason I bought the H4N was because my wife and I, for fun, not revenue, want to do a web based travel show. My real job is an audio engineer and I dabble in television a little.
Therefore I have high standards for audio, even for my hobby. The audio in the D90 is sub-standard.

I think Canon and Nikon were caught off guard with a huge success of their HD DSLRs. Next year I expect to see news of proper video camera that uses DSLR lenses and a large CMOS. Something like the RED scarlet, but cheaper.

FYI, I got the H4N from a company I have never heard of- UniqueSquared, I found them on ebay. I don't know if we are allowed to talk about prices here, but their service and price were both outstanding.

~Jay

Everything I've seen says the street price on H4n is $350, which is what I paid through an online music supply retailer. If everyone is selling for the same price... buy from a trusted source locally, or, at least, if online, try to reduce/eliminate shipping costs. I guess I'm cheap, cheap, cheap!

Audio Sync with H4N
 

I had an opportunity to use my H4N to record the audio during the taping of a high school show. I was using my Sony VX2000 recording the video/audio and the H4N with a couple of AKG mics.

The entire show was 1 hour and 53 minutes, so I used used two DV tapes. The first act was one long (1 hour) take. Bringing in the camera video/audio on the timeline and the audio for H4N I was pleasantly surprised that the H4N audio track was out of sync by only about 2 frames from the camera audio by the end of the hour.

Big improvement over the H4.

RE: Audio Sync with H4N
 

Peter that's great to hear.
One of the major objections to the Zoom recorders by users is that it doesn't hold sync well over medium to long periods of video. Personally I don't edit using 1-2 hours straight of the same video and audio so it hasn't been a huge issue for me.

But I can see it being a problem for long recording needs like recital and stage work.
In the past I have used my Edirol R44 for stage productions and it has worked great. I recently picked up the H4n and am anxious to give it a try for stage productions as well. So this is good news.

H4N Sync
 

Michael:

I was very pleased after the sync issues I had with my old H4. I was also impressed with the sound quality using the xlr mic inputs. To my ear, there is a large difference from the H4. All in all the H4N has been pleasantly surprising experience as I wasn't expecting that big a change, except for the user interface which drove me crazy on the H4 (especially since I'm doing video and audio recording solo).

Peter

How many milli-amps of phantom power does the H4n provide? I've searched for a while with no results. I learned today that some mics may require more power than some phantom power units provide.

The H4n can provide up to 48v of phantom power.

Right, 48 volts, but how much current at that voltage? I had assumed all 48 V phantom power units were created equal, but they are not. If the H4n provides 2 mA current and a mic requires 3 mA then the mic is not going to work well.

Does the H4N have any audio wandering? I use an iriver now and it has a small amount of wandering in FCP. I'd be more than willing to drop the extra cash for an H4N if I can just drop it in no problem. It'd be used for audio backup and capturing 5d wireless audio.

Can my Giant Squid lav mic work as an external mic for this thing as well?

Much thanks

Yes, I've tested this with voice.

Due to the physical arrangments, the right-angle 3.5mm option from GS is more convenient than the standard 3.5mm plug, but, the standard works fine - just a little awkward.

There is a menu setting to turn on micpower / plugin power to the 3.5mm input.