Two Shotgun mics or just one?
 

Recording in an outdoor environment - football field halftime show focusing on presentations and band playing...



Is it better to use two shotgun mics one to each channel, or use one shotgun mic inputing to both channels?

How far away from the presentations will you be positioned? Unless you're down there on the field right at the ceremony, a shotgun is not likely to do you much good - they are NOT "telescopes for sound."

For the band, 'guns will probably have too narrow a pattern. A stereo pair of cardioids in an ORTF arrangment on the sidelines at the 50-yard line on a stand fairly high in the air would be my first thought. An A/B arrangment about 10 feet apart might also work.

I will be positioned on the bottom level of bleachers on the "rail" at or around the 50 yard line I should be about 20 yards or less from them...

"A stereo pair of cardioids in an ORTF arrangment"

Ok now you lost me :) I was going to mount the mics to a Video Camera, I do have a 5 foot mic stand that I could mount them too instead but not sure what an ORTF arrangement is?

There is a possibility of inclement weather as well so I may have to be stationed under an umbrella.

20 yards away from the ceremony is about 19 yards too far away for a shotgun mic to pick up their voices well. Contrary to popular belief, shotguns DO NOT magnify distant sounds. What they do is supress sounds arriving from the sides and rear, thus isolating the sounds coming from the direction in they're aimed from the surroundings. But they're no more sensitive to sound than is any other mic. From your camera position the sound you'll be hearing will be coming from the PA system, not directly from the ceremony. The PA speakers are likely to be off to your side somewhere, not somewhere along your camera's line of sight, and a mic that supresses those side-arriving sounds is the last thing you'll want. If you're there in an official capacity, perhaps you can tie in to the PA. If not, concentrate on getting the sound from the PA speakers clearly.

ORTF is one of several different mic arrangements for stereo recording, one that is well-suited for large spread out groups like a marching band. It consists of two cardioid-pickup pattern mics arranged about 18 inches apart and aimed away from each other in a V making about a 120 degree angle between them. See this link http://schoeps.de/PDFs/stereo-record...chniques-e.pdf for an illustration. A/B is another arrangement, also illustrated on that page, where two either cardioid or omni mics are mounted anywhere from 1 metre to several metres apart. In the case of your stadium, I think omnis would pick up a lot of the crowd and so I'd probably go with cardioids in order to favour the band. In any case, once again a shotgun or shotguns is not likely to be a viable solution.

If possible go observe the band rehearsing and experiment with different mic arrangements.

Thomas, the answer to your question is zero. If you want to mic it professionally, do what Steve said. Otherwise, you might as well just use the camera mic which is probably omni stereo. Given what you said, your sound will be coming from the sound system for the presentation speakers (20 yards is really far) and acoustically from the marching band. A shotgun serves neither of those applications. Do a test during some other similar event in that venue and compare your camera built-in versus your two shotguns.

Thanks for the answers, I'm not there in an "official capacity" so won't be able to tap into the PA system. I am there however trying to do the best job I can for some potential work later so I do want to get the best sound possible.

I won't have time unfortuanetly to test ahead as I got this job last week and have to do it this Friday...

If I have to use the onboard mic as this sounds like it might be the best soulution should I put a dead cat on it at least?

I don't have a problem renting mic's as this could lead to some potential work down the road.

For more information the camera I'm using is a AG-HMC150

And would something like this work better then the onboard mic?

RØDE Microphones - StereoVideoMic

The pattern is better but you'll have a problem connecting it to your camera. The Videomic uses a stereo miniplug with the left channel on the tip and the right channel on the ring. Your camera's external mic connectors are two XLR, normally a good thing because that's what pro mics are. But the VXLR adapter plug Rode sells is for mono, not stereo. While the Stereo Videomic's miniplug will fit into it, the channels will get combined to one mono track AND the right channel will be flipped out-of-phase with the left - not good. So you'd need two adapters, plus a stereo to dual mono Y cable. Then if you put it on a stand off the camera, you've got a longish unbalanced line from the mic to the camera. All in all, not conducive to to a trouble free setup.

This ... Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : AT8022 X/Y Stereo Microphone

or this ... Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : BP4025 X/Y Stereo Field Recording Microphone

would be much better bets. See also detailed specs http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/re...o_mics_lit.pdf

In the Rode line, consider this ... http://usa.rodemic.com/microphone.php?product=NT4

And rather than mounting on the camera, still consider placing the mic on a stand up 8 or 10 feet in the air to get better coverage of the band.

I think you have a good idea of the message... given the constraints you are working under, your sound capture will be a compromised effort - at best. That said, I guess the question then is - given my constraints is there any way I can possibly "improve" what sound capture I will be able to effect?

You said you had the capability to rent. Assuming you cannot have someone closer to the field holding a boomed mic on long XLR cables (that would be a HUGE improvement), and hence the mic placement is static - that is to say with you in the bleachers, then I would suggest you consider renting a mic with high sensitivity and output - a so called "hot" mic. Others may have other ideas, but in the shotgun category I'd consider renting an Audio Technica AT-4073.

Get a blimp for it and have someone either hold it off camera, or find a mounting for it.

Don't risk the wind noise issue. Blimp it, period.

Even if you can get it closer on cables (you can run LONG XLR cables without problems) stay with that blimped setup.

Good luck.

Chris

Thanks again I stopped by my local music store who rents gear. They recommended a AKG414 with a 7 foot boom pole. Thought is to run it to both channels so I have both although mono.

I'm wondering your thoughts on this setup and should I use the Wide cartoid settings or the normal. In post can I invert one of the tracks to get a
more stereo sound?

yea, thanks definetly understand this is going to be a challenge :) but if it was easy and controlled environment what would be the fun in that?

When you say "blimp" just want to make sure we are talking the same thing, I am assuming you mean a dead cat cover?

First things first. You made an improvement so far. Did you get a blimp for it too? If not, and the day turns off windy, you will not get recordable sound due to wind noise. Trust me on this. You may luck out and get a windless day... but that's a big risk.

Next, will you be able to safely run a cable down to the sidelines? If so, and you can either static mount the mic or have someone on the boom pole following the action (?) I think you may be pleasantly surprised at what you might be able to get. (warning, long cable runs almost need someone just to monitor the cabling against pedestrians and curiosity seekers). That would be the ideal, but if not, go with whatcha got in the bleachers. Me, I'd do anything I culd to run a cable to a sidelines boom. The boom could be kept low and unobtrusive on the sidelines.

I'd worry more about capture at this point and less about pseudo stereo effect. Switching phase won't do that, and will work against you. Let's focus on getting clean decent sound first...

Chris

ps. If it is real windy, (even with a blimp) a little trick that can help is to bring some electrical tape and tape over the low cut off switch on the mic barrel and also tape around where the XLR connects to the mic barrel as well.

pps. By blimp I do not mean just a foam windscreen.

Blimp - let's start in order. You have the naked mic. Next up is the naked mic and a foam cover (ok in VERY light wind up to a couple mph), the naked mic, a foam cover AND a fuzzie or deadcat - same thing, (good up to maybe 5-7 mph depending) and then the enclosure the mic goes inside - the "blimp", looks like a minature Hindenburg, and these almost always have a deadcat placed on them (good up to several times the wind of the best foam cover and deadcat combo. You can even put the foam cover on the mic and place it in a blimp, and if you tape the mic barrel as described, ought to be fine in pretty stiff winds... depending on blimp orientation vis a vis the passing wind).

Blimps often come with an attachable handholding stub... that a person can hang on to and aim the blimp with, sans boom pole. (Still thinking sideline help here).

OK, yea did some looking and see what a "blimp" is I will have to ask the store if they can provide this as well.

A dead cat was part of my order btw...

Thanks for all your help, once I have the audio I'll have to ask for tips on cleaning it up if needed :)

My wife is looking forward to being a boom operator lol...

I'm hoping against hope that I can get down on the field during this (I'm going to ask maybe when I show them a prosumer camera they'll be aw'ed into letting me) but if not then I'm still in the stands with boom pole :(

I really appreciate all the insight so far!

pps. I have Sony Vegas 9.0b, if you have any insight into working with the audio once I get it :)

"I'm hoping against hope that I can get down on the field during this (I'm going to ask maybe when I show them a prosumer camera they'll be aw'ed into letting me) but if not then I'm still in the stands with boom pole :("

You may have much better luck getting an inobtrusive sound person on the sidelines rather than a tripod and camera. Remember camera and microphone are not ONE unit. Get 150-200 feet or so of XLR cable and see if your lovely wife cannot charm her way onto the sideline or closeby... she can squat down holding the blimp and aim it at the action. The cabling will carry the signal back to you, up in the "cheap seats".

Good sound is 90% about microphone placement close to the source. (ok I made the 90% up - did you know that 88% of all statistics are made up on the spot?)

If you are familiar with setting up the audio on the camera, I'd experiment with setting ONE channel fairly hot, signal wise, and the other more medium. That way you have TWO signals to play with level wise. In the end we'll select the best one, but it adds to your capabilities during editing. (I can give you more detail but suspect we're fine with this 30,000 foot view right now).

Not too familiar so I'm not sure how to set one channel more hot?

BTW, the 30,000 foot cable - OK 150 foot is not an option :) don't think they are going to rent me a cable that long in my budget :( I like the way you think though and this would be great if possible - but alas we are going to be ~15 feet apart.

If I can be so bold as to ask, the manual for my camera is available at ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni...-HMC150_OI.pdf

if you can suggest how to set one channel more hot?

XLR cable is relatively cheap and commonplace, and long cables are not unusual or odd. Heck you can BUY a 50 foot cable of an inexpensive brand for as little a $15. You might be surprised how cheap XLR cabling is to rent...(in other words it would likely be the least expensive thing on the rental menu) but anyway....

I'll look at the manual, but hope someone familiar with that camera might chime in and offer you a quick and dirty.... if not I'll see if I can assist.

Ok here's what I get....by reading the manual.

First, plug the XLR cable to the mic into Input 2. Set CH1 and CH2 to Input 2.

Now you have fed the mic feed into both channels.

Turn the mic power switch on for ch 2.

Now you are feeding the mic 48v power which it needs to operate.

You won't have a mixer or tone generator, so during periods when the sound levels seem to be like you expect during halftime, watch the meters.... using the sound audio control knobs, set channel 1 so that it "almost touches" the right hand side of the meter readout (0 db), set channel 2 so that it just touches the vertical line (-12 db) during those same stretches using the same sounds - (which I hope will be constant enough to make this seat of the pants setting up workable....) then watching channel 2 to make sure the levels are approximately the same as when you were setting up, back channel one off by a three dotted lines (looking at the meters in the manual) during the same loud sounds. (This is a HOT setup. If you have a sidelines mic you could back things down a dotted line or 2)

Channel one will be the hot channel, and channel 2 will give you some breathing room. In digital, if you overmodulate, you are a cooked goose. So channel 1 gives you a hot signal, and SHOULD the overmodulation occur,channel 2 can save the day.

Watch your level meters during the show. So long as 2 isn't exceeding 0 DB you should be ok.

Others may have better suggestions. Your mileage may vary.

Audio
 

If the audio is so important to this project and the cabling is a challenge, why not consider a dedicated audio recorder?

I suspect cabling is not really the issue... renting cable is easier than renting a recorder. For that matter wireless Xmit/Rcvr may be too. But that is certainly one option worthy of consideration.

Thanks Chris I will give that a try! So by having this channel running hot what benefits will this give me in post?

And really dumb question... run the input as "Mic" correct, and -50? < edited for stupidity

Should I leave AGC and ALC on?

The cable may be cheap but the real challenge is I don't know the location well enough to know if they will let me run cables accross the field or even let me down on the field. I will find out how much it will cost to get a longer cable and if it is within budget I will get one as well so in case I can deploy it I'll have it with me.

Do NOT record dual mono and then invert one channel. It will NOT give you a stereo sound, instead it can introduce all sorts of phase cancellation problems. When listened to in stereo, the mixing of the signals in the air can cause comb filtering effects and if the two channels are collapsed to mono - as happens very frequently when video is played back on a mono TV or during cable broadcast - they will cancel each other out and you'll get silence. Not too long ago I was watching a show on National Geographic channel ("Things That Move" railroad episode) where this happened - can't imagine whoever cleared it through QC kept their job! - where all the sound except for the FX was missing from the broadcast for what I suspect was that exact reason.

You record dual mono with one channel hotter than the other to give you a backup. Normally you would use just the higher level channel, recoded in mono and then sent to both left and right during post production. But if a sudden extra loud sound drives that higher level recording into distortion, you have the undistorted lower level one to fall back on.

I'm not very comfortable with the music store's advice on the AKG414. First of all, it's a side-address, large diaphram mic, more at home in the recording studio than it is in the field. As a side address, rather than aiming it like a flashlight it's held more like a lantern, positioned at 90 degrees across the axis from the sound source with the front side of the mic facing the sound. Hard to do accurately when it's out on the end of a fishpole boom. The large mic and its shockmount are going to be awfully heavy - that's a lot of mass to have out on the end of a 7 or 10 foot lever arm and it's going to be very cumbersome to handle. The large diaphram is going to be sensitive to wind and while AKG makes a foam windsock that fits on it, I've never seen a blimp that would hold one.

Thanks Steve, what about the Wide Cartoid thought?

And if you don't think that is a good choice, what should I ask them for?

If pointing it is so important should I instead use my 5 foot stand?

'Scuse me for butting in with a correction, but the foam windscreen should come off when the mic goes into a blimp. The wind protection comes from the blimp's enclosing a cushion of still air surrounding the mic, trapping air between the mic and the blimp's basket, and filling that cushion with foam instead of air can actually reduce the wind protection the enclosure provides.

The wide cardioid, cardioid, or hypercardioid patterns are more a matter of how broad an angle the desired sound source extends over in front of the mic - it's not that one is better than the other but rather a matter what you want to get into the most sensitive pickup zone and what you want to exclude from it. If you were micing an entire orchestra from the conductor's podium where the group is spread out around a 180 degree arc in front of the mic, wide cardioid might be a good choice. If you were micing an individual trombone in that orchestra, the hyper would be the way to go in order to minimize the bleed from the other instruments in the group. So for your band, it gets complicated to give advice sight unseen. How big a group is it? How far away are they? (In other words, from the mic position, how broad an angle will they cover?) Will they be marching around for the half-time show or performing standing in place?

IMHO, a 5 foot stand is too short. I'd want to get the mic up into the air a bit more so it better "sees" the instruments in the back of the group over the heads of the people in the front. But I'd put it on a tall stand with an extension arm rather than a handheld fishpole boom. Perhaps I misread your intentions - when you said you were getting a boom, which were you referring to?

Aim is important because cardioid and wide cardioid (and hyper too) are directional patterns. Cardioid = "heart shaped" and that's essentially what they look like - the pickup is a hemispherical or teardrop shape in one direction with very little response on the other. You need to make sure the sensitive side is toward the source. Mics also fall into side-address and end-address categories, depending on whether the direction of their pickup is along the long axis of the mic or at 90 degrees to it. The mics you see singers and comics holding in their hands on stage are end-address. The desk mics you see Carson, Letterman, or Howard Stern using are side-address, as are many of the vocal mics you see in recording studios. The 414 is a side-address vocal and instrumental, stage and studio mic. I just don't know how well it'll work out used outdoors like you're planning.

The music store recommended a 7 foot boom pole that would be held...

The more I look at this and read responses the more scarier this option becomes as you state pointing the mic is going to be crucial for good sound pickup. The tallest stand I have is 5 foot with a extension arm, but I'm assuming I can rent a taller one instead of the hand held boom which should be better I am assuming?

Should I be asking for a different type of mic?

And yea I'm flying a little blind here as I don't know if they'll be moving around or not so I guess I'll have to adapt.

On a positive note, I just left message for the Athletic director asking for sideline access so let's hope he lets me...

\0/ Yay... they are going to let me be on the side lines!!

Any recommendation changes?

I'd be happier with one of the stereo mics I linked to in a previous message, about 8 feet in the air or a little more and aimed across the field along the 50 yard line while the band is performing. To be honest, anything you do without the chance to test it before hand is going to be a crapshoot - there are just so many variables. A single mic position outdoors in an echo'y stadium is not the best way to record a band to begin with so CD quality sound is just not going to be in the cards. The 414 set to wide and held aloft might work out okay as long as you can keep its diaphram pointed in the right direction (as long as the wind is calm), and then again it might be a total dud.

The band is bound to be doing a run-through between now and the show, see if you can eavesdrop

Checked with the store, they don't have any Stereo mics to rent so looks like this is the best I'm going to get.

Thanks for all the help up to this point, when I edit the video I'll post some up so you can at least see how it came out :)

Here's hoping for a)little to no wind, b)no rain - which this is a chance of ;(

I didn't realize that the mic they planned to rent to you was in effect a studio mic. As such, it is as Steve (one of our accepted resident sound experts on this site) says, not ideally appropriate for your use. (Not unuseable, just not really an appropriate mic, esp on a boom pole.) Get a shotgun mic if you can. (Wondering whether these guys are more aimed at stage musicians than other users). Oh and congrats on getting on the sidelines, your potential production value just went WAY up.

Steve... thanks for the comment on a foam inside the blimp. I had been told that in he very rare case you might try that (never have personally), the HF loss would lifely be noticeable, but that the loss of airspace would more than be made up for by the foam... 'parently not. Again, thanks for pointing that out.

Ok so we are back to my original question LOL

Should I rent two shotgun mics or just one? Running one channel hot...

Will this give me good coverage of the whole band with the shotguns?

Just one.... set up as described earlier.

I have to disagree with Chris. A shotgun aimed at the PA speakers during the ceremony would be okay but its pattern is too narrow to effectively cover a dispersed source like a marching band. Shotguns are spot mics, intended to isolate the source they're aimed at from its surroundings.

0.o

I was thinking that about the shotguns too, at this point my best option seems to be the studio mic and a prayer :)

Steve... you don't think he will be at a sufficient range from the source for a shotgun to "effectively" accept the better part of the sound source? That was my thinking.

Thomas, accepting Steve's advice, the next best thing would be an end address "pencil type" microphone. (Like a short shotgun without interference tubes in appearance if you haven't seen one.) I'll again defer to Steve but a cardiod or hypercardiod pattern would to my mind be best. I think you may be in an environment with a lot of crowd noise and people talking nearby etc, and an omni to my mind would be overkill insofar as nondesirable ambient sound would be concerned.

My 2 cents.

I agree Chris. I'd go with a cardioid or hyper up on a stand.

The 414 has cartoid, hyper, and wide and I just saw this and now it is to late to change...
I was thinking of using the wide, thoughts?

Late edit, apparently this thing has Cartoid, hyper, omni, and figure 8 so going with Cartoid and if I get too much or doesn't sound right I'll switch to Hyper...

I'm backing myself up with a digital recorder and a strero mic as well that I'm going to attach to the pole beneath this mic...

I shouldn't be too far from them since I'll be on the side-lines and only 5-10 yards at most from them.

Weather is nice but the wind is ~10 MPH this ought to be interesting :)

Hopefully, you'll be able to monitor and control the levels. Marching bands can be REALLY loud at that distance.

Thomas... if the Mic is going to be stand mounted, that means your wife is available for other duties. (g)

Since you have NO windscreen for that mic, get an umbrella and hoping the wind is not coming AT you across the field, have her try and shield it from wind. A POOR way to do wind protection, but it CAN be effective.

Chris