Tascam DR680 recorder thoughts ? long sync ability ?
 

I was looking at the new DR680 tascam recorder. ok, so its "only" 4 mic / line level ins and 2 RCA line level ins... thats not a bad deal at all. I need something to record 2 system sound with a dSLR and this really seems to do the job for a very nice price.

the other recorder I was looking at was the tascam HD P2 2track recorder. its only 2 tracks... enough said but it does take TC in which is nice. however, for dSLR work, TC is a moot point for the most part unless you want to run it to 1 audio track, then use that FCP plug to read it from the audio track.

will the DR680 hold sync for 12 minutes ? as in a 1/2 frame or so or better ?

HD P2 should because I could feed composite from the camera to lock the recorder when possible.. what about when there is no video sync and its completely free running, will it drift over 12 mins ?

I'm shooting 95% 24fps, so I know that has a bit more margin too, sometimes sync never looks dead on.

so if I decided that with dSRL's TC didn't matter, is the DR680 a clean recorder with decent pre amps ? I've got a FP33 to feed it with, but I could almost go with direct feeds if I could. I'd also like to stay under $1k... seems like all the used SD recorders have gotten snatched up :(

Have not had a chance to test one out as of yet but from doing research and speaking with a bunch of vet sound guys most recorders like that with out any TC don't tend to stay synced very long. But I could be wrong just going off what has been said around here and other forums. I would recommend trying to find a place that has it in your area(if possible) and test out or search around and find someone who owns it to help run a test for you. I'm really interested in buying the recorder. The only thing I don't like about it is the RCA outputs and the one value knob used to control the volume of all the tracks. I wish there where separate knobs for each channel.


Nicole

Actually, the dr-680 has 6 microphone inputs, not 4. There are 4 xlr combi jacks, plus 2 TRS 1/4" jacks. Electronically there is no difference. All 6 inputs are balanced and can provide phantom power. A simple mechanical adapter/cable from trs<->xlr is all that is needed for those last 2 jacks to work just like another pair of xlr. The rca input is digital spidf.

I find drift on solid state recorders to be SO reduced from the olden days that I rarely worry about it. I often record 12 minutes on my 7d and sync it with my r-09 with no drift. The biggest drift problems i've read about with the 5d/7d/550d is how the header info is incorrect in the video saved on the camera and causing a .01% drift due to the nle using this misfiled information. Fixing the settings on the nle supposedly gets rid of it. I'm in pal country, so 25 is 25, so no drift due to miscommunication.

The reports from the tapers section geeks is that the dr-680 does in fact have surprisingly clean preamps. They are often a fantastic resource for obsessive audio gear comparisons, but the grain of salt is that most of them are recording high volume concerts. Dialog is different.

Until one is tested specifically for dual audio dialog, its all speculation. I have been tracking the dr-680 as well and am convinced its going to be my field audio recorder. In my opinion the stuff there to love outweighs the stuff to dislike.

For dslr work, where would TC come from to run into the recorder? Unless the camera is generating or syncing to a tc source (dslrs do neither) then there is nothing tying the camera to the recorder. Just having external sync alone doesn't assure anything.

my 2c.

Hi Steve,

I have a DR680 sitting here on my desk. I haven't had time to put it through its paces as much as the DR100 and the HSP82, both of which have been surprisingly well received. If you would like to test this one out, I have no problem shipping it to you on a 2 week loan as long as you'll report back to others how you liked it - and you can bash it or love it, just as long as you're cool with sharing information here on dvi, I can have it dropped in the mail today.

I'm interested in the DR680 too. I wrote Doug Oade, from Oade Brothers Mods to see if he had a mod planned for the unit. He mentioned that to date the DR decks have not been too good in his opinion. But he hasn't studied the 680 yet. I mention the Oade Brothers because you can get a "Super Mod" on a Edirol R-44 for only 50.00 over the cost of the unit from somewhere like B&H. A super Mod replaces the already good preamps with dead silent preamps perfect for dialog. So I'm getting an Edirol R-44 from Oade Brothers. 4 channels is enough, and you can string 2 of them together.

Here's the unit at Oade Brothers: Ordering for Oade Brothers Audio: Edirol R44 Super MOD- Ground Shipping

Here's the unit from B&H, which has more info & specs: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542280-REG/Edirol_Roland_R_44_R_44_Solid_State_Four_Channel_Portable.html

there is a plug in for FCP (from video tool shed ) that can read TC from an audio track. I also think avid can do this out of the box.

you could use an external TC generator ( $300 used ) to feed the dslr audio and one audio track on the recorder TC. you would then for sure have locked tracks. sure you have to be careful about bleed with TC, but on the camera it certainly doesn't matter, and the recorder would be a try it and see thing. you could probably reocord pretty low at like -40... but obviously testing required !

video sync is 1/59.97th of a second ( each field has a sync pulse / front & rear porch in interlace NTSC ) and can lock your audio recorder to your video cam. there are units like the HD P2 that take video in for just this reason - its more accurate then TC. its not quite as good as word clock, but works fine.

I'd almost wonder how much drift there is in the DSLR's and their video compared to a "real" video camera or sync generator. there is probably some, but when you can't go more then 12 mins, its probably a frame or less which is more then good enough for most of us. while we might like to think that the camera is perfect sync, I bet it has some drift, especially considering the market it was designed for. they expected people to use the camera mic or use the ext audio in in single system so it would not be an issue.

In regards to audio quality, the 680 isn't bad at all. I just got one and did a 3 way comparison with an RME fireface, a Great River/Weiss ADC setup (around $10K) and the 680. The differences were smaller than you might think and to my ears the Tascam was 2nd to the Weiss and slightly more transparent than the RME. Not bad for $800.

I've got a 680 here to test. I'm going to write an extensive review on it shortly. I'm planning to take it on a job mon/tues if its not too crazy. a lot of run & gun, but a bunch of assembly line sit downs at the end of each day I think it will work great for. I've gotten some surprising results.... but your gonna have to wait :)

as for its preamps... all I'll say is its not a SD 7xx, but for $800 its a nice intro level 6 + 2 track. not many folks have dual AES outs to record unless you have a couple of the new megabuck digital mics.... but if you can afford a couple of them, I bet you've got a top end recorder too.

Cool! Post that review here, or at least a link so we get email notification.

my dr680 is scheduled to arrive in a few weeks.

Does anybody have the cs-dr680 case in stock? Is there one of the petrol/portabrace cases that work nicely with it and the top-of-recorder button access?

cheers.

Steve, I am 4 days from ordering a DR-680 and would love to hear your verdict before it's too late to change my mind if I need to...it's that or an Oades modified R-44 that will be the heart of my field recording system. I'd love to hear opinions. Also, everyone/anyone, is there a Porta Brace case that works with the 680?

I'm going to be posting my review today if things go according to plan, including a video clip with 680 recorded sound.

you will be happy with the 680.

skip portabrace and get a Petrol PEGZ-1 bag if you all need to hold is the DR680, headphones, and a couple of wireless receivers... and maybe an iPad or iPod touch.

I really want Doug Oade to look at this unit. He was down on the whole DR series, saying past models weren't cutting it. I would buy an Oade Brothers DR680 if they had one. You can't go wrong with the Oade Edirol R-44, but I want the extra tracks. I've already tried prodding Doug to look into this. He's not in any hurry. Maybe if some of you guys would inquire he may actually look into giving a sweet mod to the preamps and make this puppy sing!

I think Mr. Oade might be disappointed to find out his services are not required with this unit.

Having recorded 3 professional gigs with it I can inform you that it is the machine of the moment in every way. There is a huge financial gap to the next best thing; the SD788t.

One thing I have done is sync to aes/ebu digital audio out on a Sony deck to keep sync which worked flawlessly. Obviously most cameras don't have that though.

Oh and also the top panel is not a problem as after the switches are set there there's not much need to refer back to it. The new firmware allows the front knob to do the top knobs job too which is good.

Yes it's a shame to have to do it all on one knob but I guess knobs cost money. Like all these cheaper machines and digital mixers etc.. there is a certain amount of screen navigation to set levels.

So Jimmy the preamps are dead silent? It just seems like a cheap price for all those preamps.

Ok, the video review is up ! judge for yourself how well it holds sync, and over all sound quality just recording my voice. something I missed during the initial test, I have my iPhone pretty close, and it didn't pick up any hits. I'm off to try the phone right on top :)


between this unit at $800 something and a 788T at almost $8k, there is nothing in-between. to make this unit ideal I'd want XLR's out for the stereo mix, a metal or metalized CF case, and maybe a couple of knobs on the front. if you could add a USB keyboard for take labeling, that would be great too.

*** for the price *** there is a lot to like, and you can't complain too loudly !

Nice review! Thanks for putting this up.

I still wonder, if you took away the extra tracks, how would this DR680 stack up against the Edirol R-44. Preamp quality being a big factor. I want to love this before I actually pull the trigger. I already know the R-44 is solid, but this dang 680 is really giving me G.A.S. with the extra tracks.

The pre amps are very good. I have not noticed any noise with them. They are as good as anything else I ever use from 2" tape Dolby to mini disc to numerous other things. The truth is I did not think about them when I set levels as I was very busy and afterwards with six tracks up including 3 audience mic's and high end mic's on acoustic guitar on a soft angelic singer, I still did not notice any background s/n hiss.

I record professional music and dialogue and they are quite good enough for me. I do notice noise though. My schoeps ccm 41 for example always sounds hissy to me. I guess it is compared to the MKH60.

Stick an sd552 infront of this machine and use the aes/ebu out and then you get all 8 tracks too. Cool in'it.

We would all have an sd788t if we could but this is nice for us mere mortals. Fun having all those tracks! 4 never was enough for me. I had 3 audience mic's on one channel via a double y split the other day as well as 3 other audience mic channels out there. This unit happily powered 3 mic's off one xlr too.

Right on Jimmy. That's encouraging to hear. I record live music, which totally covers noise, but I also do dual system audio for indi films. That's where I need the dead silence. And If I can have a little more assurance of quiet pres for 100.00 or so more bucks to Doug Oade, I'm more than happy to oblige.

Hey Steve the top data dial functions are available from the front panel now with the firmware update that has been out a good month or so.


It's the firmware upgrade that adds mp3 recording. It also allows you to do a few other arming things whilst not in record standbye I think.
It's a sensible improvement and worth doing not just for mp3 which I never use but mainly because the front dial now does everything the top dial does except scrubbing.

Nice office by the way.

yes I did update the firmware right out of the box actually. I just got used to using the data dial. the one thing thats weird is that hitting enter doesn't lock in the value you are changing and return you to menu item selection. you have to hit the < button. hope that gets fixed.

the preamps are pretty quiet. if you turn on the low switch for mic input, then turn up the level to get back a good level, you will hear the hiss.

another thing is that when just using the headphones / making a stereo mix, be sure to disable unused inputs because they will add quite a bit to the hiss... as would just about any preamp without a load on it.

Yeah I agree the that < navigation thing is a bit awkward. I've found having the recorder in the front of a Pegz 2 to be ok though and I can find most the top buttons by feel. I just pull it out and rest it on top to make changes to switches. By that time there are cables everywhere too so I'm not realy going to move much.

The headphone amp is a bit hissy, yes. It seems to jump up as you hit 2 o'clock. I've learnt to trust the noise to be only on h/p output but that is certainly a week point here compared to more expensive machines. I guess they missed that at Tascam.

I wonder what Doug Oade will say about this machine then. But in reality I know what I think.

cheers

One odd thing about this unit is there is no 88.2 sample rate. There's 44.1, 48, 96 and 192. For those wanting to record at 88.2 and do a sample rate conversion to 44.1, you can't.

I would assume Tascam's marketing target is towards ENG/EFP which normally works in the 48k realm.

Here's the first line from the Tascam DR-680 webpage.

"TASCAM's DR-680 brings multi-channel portable recording within reach of any musician for polished live, location and surround recordings".

There are a bunch of guys on the music sites inquiring about these things, just seems strange to not include 88.2, especially given Tascam's long history of making products for the music industry.

One welcome improvement in the 1.10 firmware upgrade is that the front "home/function" key now also activates the top menu key so you can access both menus from the front panel. (Press and hold the home/function key).

didn't want to start a new thread on this but anyone have one and using a mixer in front of it? I was thinking maybe routing outputs from a mixer to it to control the inputs since there are no value knobs for each track. Let me know.

Nicole

It would certainly work to use a mixer in front of the dr680, but I've opted not to. While there aren't dedicated "knobs" for each track, the virtual knobs work decently. You can see on the backlit screen the level of each track. In fact, I'm starting to prefer the virtual knobs. Even in darkness, you can press the buttons for the various tracks and see visually what track is selected before adjusting the value.

If you are used to tuning mixer knobs by feel then you probably wouldn't like the dr680, but the functionality is there to adjust all the tracks. I personally bought the dr680 so i could run discrete tracks for each mic and minimize the amount of "mixing" i needed to do on location. I just need acceptable levels from each source and I'll choose how to mix them in post. If you are doing excellent mixing work then you can probably get away with fewer tracks.

For me, the only reason i'll put a mixer before the 680 is if i need to mix down even more than 6 sources, or if I want to take advantage of a better limiter/preamp. Thats me, though.

Thanks for that information. I would love the ability to adjust knobs(which I'm use to). I can't afford a Sound Devices 744T so I'm leaning towards an Edirol R-44 or Tascam DR-680. I will be purchasing one here soon.


Nicole

744t only has 2 knobs, so that requires a mixer as well for more than 2 tracks. If you want a multitrack field recorder with a separate knob for each audio track, the roland/edirol is just about your only choice.

In case you didn't know, the dr680 uses a knob to adjust the levels, you just have to press the button 1-6 to identify which track you are adjusting. (sorry if that was obvious)

Lot of people love the r-44. Seems like a good recorder... if you can live with only 4 tracks. :,>

Definitely go for the 680.
It's the newer design.
Edirol will probably bring out something to rival it soon.
In 24 bit mode once levels are set there is no need to ride levels.
I just recorded a six piece funk band with one. 4 instrument mic's, 2 room mic's, 2 di's.
Could never have done that with a 4 track.

What is the downside to doing a sample rate conversion from 96 to 44.1, vs the preferred 88.2 to 44.1?

I realize the math is more simple, but is there actually a sonic difference, or is it just an unfounded concern?

Like with 16bit: A well recorded 16bit file can not be discerned from a 24 bit recording by human ears (Ethan Werner proved that) but the benefit of 24 bit is that there is more headroom, enabling one to record at a lower level without dipping into the noise floor. But some people still claim that 24 bit sounds better to them. Is the asymmetrical math of the 96 - 44.1 sample conversion really going to adversely affect the sound quality? Or maybe just take a few more seconds to process the conversion?

Inquiry minds want to know, because I record for CD release too.

Depends on the software used for the sample rate conversion. Anti-alias filters and such. I would not trust a low-end video editing program with it.

I would be using a professional NLE - Cubase. So I guess it's really a non issue as I suspected.

The issue with 24 versus 16 bit isn't with any audible difference with the source files themselves so much as it is that 24 bit stands up to more multitrack mixing and processing in the digital domain before the noise floor starts to creep up. For most video soundtracks it probably doesn't make any difference but what the heck, disk space is cheaper 'n dirt these days. Might as well use it.

reality is at 24bits you are are best really getting 20 bits of resolution, but I'll take it ! any more headroom and better S/N is a good thing. 48K sounds nice on the unit as I spent a couple of days shooting interviews, better then the native sound of the HD100 I've been using for years, and no one has ever complained about its 384kbits MP3 recording ! so as always, YMMV. don't get so hung up about Nth degree of qaulity because unless you are using top end mics, and everything else, the difference is often too small to matter in the finished product.

a case!
 

This finally was released. sweet.

PortaBrace - Product Detail:AR-DR680

Are you going to actually USE an uninterrupted 12 minute clip in a real production? This is so rarely needed that the question is essentially moot. Anywhere you make a video transition is an opportunity to pull-up the picture sync to match the audio track. It is so easy to do that I don't even think about it anymore.

Sometimes I'm asked to do a one camera shoot of a band performing or a play. I have used an Edirol R-4 Pro for the audio in those situations, and at least with the R-4 Pro I can get through a whole set without needing to adjust the audio sync. So I would expect the same out of the DR-680.

yes, sometimes. or put another way, I should be able to lock a clip up once, and not need to re lock it thru a take. thats a waste of time, and clients can freak out. also I have been making TC burns of EOS clips to DVD... where again, clients don't want to see drift or they have a problem...