Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Once recorded it's too late. The best approach for the situation you describe is to record dialog and ambience separately. When recording the interview, focus on the getting the speech recorded as pristine and free of other sounds as possible, shooting in mono. Then record the ambience of the location in stereo in a separate take, focussing on getting the best recording of it that you can. The ambience recordinbg does not need to be at the same time or even on the same day as the dialog ... you don't even need to have the interview subject there. Then combine the two in post. Trying to record both at once is going to be a compromise no matter what you do.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

It's really rather stupid to use a non-standard output on a mic - imagine how many normal balanced mics are out there, and this one won't work without one-off adaptors. Daft!

As for the stereo image of a microphone attached to a camera, convention in the matching of audio and video is that it depends on what you actually want. If you have a busy soundfield, lets say a railway station, and you pan with mic fitted with a stereo mic then for the person watching and listening it's very very strange. If you watch in a darkened room, it's sometimes enough to induce mild nausea. When you turn your head, you very rarely fix your eye position and let your head do the pan. Try it and see, it's quite hard to do. So for effect, maybe in a whip pan - it does the job extra specially well. It goes wrong too when you zoom. As you zoom in do you also zoom in the soundfield so the sound sounds 'nearer'. If you have the sound source you want, in the edge of the frame, do you want their location to shift there? Imagine the TV weather from the OB, presenter dead centre, sound coming from the middle, then the cameraman pans to one side so the empty space in the frame can show the map - does the stereo image move to reflect what you can see, or not? Normally it doesn't - but it would with a camera mounted stereo mic. That's why I like m/s. You always have the front sound, on axis, and if you want the stereo info in the side channel, you have it. That Audio Tec microphone, like the Rode it's modeled on is a standard x/y near coincident type excellent for stereo detail when mounted on a stand and fixed, but I simply hate them for on camera use. Editors like nice simple sound, so I never record stereo but frequently record twin track/sort it out later audio. There's also the fact that the actual angle the mics are angled at sometimes means there is a slight null at a point directly in front of the camera. They also have the same reach as a hand held mic used on a clamp on the camera body - as in they don't go deep enough. Even a modest size conventional camera mic means that you can work a little further away..

The OP has a camera with proper professional XLRs with phantom, and that audio tec microphone is a real compromise. Easy to bodge up a non standard 3 pin female to two unbalanced XLR males, but just wrong, somehow.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

i've never understood why people insist on getting proper professional level video gear and then screw it up by trying to economize by making do with a bargain-basement consumer-level sound kit (and the OP's Azden mic is pretty much bargain basement).

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

OK thanks Steve. I take the point. Made enquiries and can borrow a Schoeps CMIT 5 U from work. I can use a Rycote shock mount to attach the mic to the camera hot shoe and my juicedLink CX231 pre-amp to convert the XLR output to mini-jack input whilst also reducing the gain on the camera pre-amp. The only weak link now is the camera itself which is HDV which I think is not much better than mp3 quality but at least the source sound should be high quality. The alternative would be to record onto my Sony D-50 but that would require syncing in post which I want to avoid. Can use the D-50 for the ambient recording.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread Sebastian but mostly on topic!

Geoff

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

I find it quite amusing people always talk about mp3s being horrible and wavs being excellent, when the truth seems to be that low bitrate mp3s can indeed sound quite rough, but high bitrate recordings with quality atrac codecs can be very good, and make a very good stand against some wav recordings. In fact, I firmly believe that the cheap audio processing on onboard or cheap card based audio cards is pretty horrible.

Originally introduced to it with local radio, I bought an HHB portadisc, and really think the audio quality is rather good. Frankly, I'm very happy with it. By comparison, the 48K 16 bit recordings made by one of my computers here is simple awful in comparison.

There are good microphones and there are poor microphones - I suspect the Audio technica one discussed here actually has electret capsules that are in fact, quite good. I've only found a few AT microphones that were truly poor. This one is idea for cheaper audio recorders that have unbalanced inputs, which I suspect is what it's really designed for. It will probably be a battery operated recorder, and without connection to the mains, the unbalanced design shouldn't cause major snags unless used in RF noisy environments.

It's just not really a video mic. I do think, however, it's likely to sound pretty good. Many far eastern small format mics use what appear to be almost identical elements, sourced from OEM manufacturers. 3 pin xlr to mini jack is a simple way to make the connection - but it wrecks the usual standard, that's my beef!

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Well I did mean against high quality 24bit 48K audio which is uncompressed. At 384kbit/s, MPEG-1 Layer 2, HDV audio is compressed but I agree can sound pretty good and some class it as perceptually lossless.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

The problem with even high-bitrate mp3 is that it is a lossy compression. That means each time a file is opened for editing or mixing it is decompressed and then recompressed when it is saved, if saved back to mp3. Each time it goes through the opening/decompression/editing/recompression/saving cycle, more and more of the information in the file is being discarded. Eventually that loss of information will come back to haunt you as a noticable degradation in sound. That's why mp3 is fine as a distribution format but not as an aquisition format. The consumer HDV cameras get away with mpeg because the manufacturers assume, mostly rightfully so, that the video shot with them of family parties and vacations etc will be viewed 'as is' with no editing beyond perhaps elementary trimming of shot length or cuts-only scene assembly, certainly no audio editing, sweetening, or mixing..

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Sony ECM-MS957 $200

plus

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/308949-REG/Remote_Audio_CAXSTE_5_Pin_Stereo_XLR_Female.html $45

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Then presumably converting to PCM audio at the start will prevent this.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Not quite, it will help but not eliminiate the issue ... you still lose one generation's worth of bits since they are thrown away in the original recording's compression process. Better to record your original in an uncompressed format such as wave or a lossless compressed (if you really feel you need to scrimp on file sizes - storage is cheaper than dirt these days) format such as flac.

BTW the same thing applies to still photos if you shoot as jpeg - editing JPGs in Photoshop or other image editors reduces the file's quality every time you open, edit, and save as jpg.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Thanks Steve, I understand. The problem is practical rather than an issue with storage space: a) having to sync in post and b) operating alone in remote (on foot only) locations means having to boom the mic in order to record it to my D-50 which could be problematic i.e. in just having to carry a mic stand along with everyhting else. I suppose I could still mount the mic on camera and get close and record it to the D-50 but that still leaves the syncing problem. I suppose it's often a trade-off between practicality and quality.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

It may be moot anyway, if you're shooting with the mic on the camera. Even a top-shelf shotgun needs to be within about 18 to 24 inches from the subject's mouth and aimed within a relatively small circle, 8 inches in diameter or so centred on the subject's larynx, to pickup sound at its best. It's a rare shot where that would be a good position for the camera. Conversely, shooting from where the image looks its best is usually a very wrong place for the mic, so your sound is compromised before you ever even get to issues around how it's being recorded.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

I have in the past used mikes on the camera, but only for tight shots or ambient shots, but generally not for important dialogue other than an establishing shot. etc.

Just an open question, how important are mikes such as the Rode Videomike, Nikon E11 and other units that are designed to be used on camera? I would like to know how other users are using these, or perhaps more to the point are they worth the money, given their limited use.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

While on-camera mics do have limited performance because of their placement, it's a necessary evil to record the best audio possible to the camera no matter what else you're recording with.

So it does eventually pay dividends to have a good on-camera mic.

Whether it's run-and-gun, an unexpected moment, as a backup to a failed off-camera recording, as a good signal for syncing either manually or with software, or to simply not drive you crazy when logging footage because you can hear clearly.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

I have found, as others have said elsewhere, that a wide angle lens really does help as you can get the camera pretty close without it looking like that on the image, close enough for the camera mounted mic to pick up a good signal. But I haven't tried this with a shotgun mic though where the positioning is more critical. I think the Videomic Pro looks like a good option for me perhaps given all the limitations of the working environment.

But I will try a dual method on the next interview shoot (which is with a friend so less critical when I'm trying to get everything sorted) also recording separately to a D-50 using a shotgun then compare the two and see if it's really worth it. I think, with the wide angle, I'll be able to position the shotgun below just out of shot but we'll see.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Be careful. Faces shot up close with a wide angle tend to appear very distorted, with an unnatural emphasis on the nose, chin, etc. You often get what used to be call a "Wallace Berry Nose" from the actor who was famous for the size of his schnozz. That's why in still photography fashion and portraiture is often shot with a short telephoto in order to reduce distorting the features and giving a more pleasing overall rendering. An ECU of the face looks better through a telephoto lens from an increased camera-subject distance than it does shot with a wide-angle with a reduced camera-subject distance, even though the face is rendered exactly the same size in both images. Perspective, the relative rendering of the various objects within the frame and their relationship to each other, is governed completely by the film or sensor plane-subject distance, the size of the frame itself is determined by lens focal length. That implies that shooting interview closeups using a wide angle lens is not a strategy that will endear the filmmaker to the subject.

Beeeep beeeeep beeeeep
 

This is really weird. I got the two RCA to XLR adapters, and I short 3.5mm female to 2 RCA male cable to connect the Azden SMX10. The sound is better than the built in mic, with one big problem: it captures the noise from the camera writing onto the card, to the point where it's unusable. I'm not talking raise the volume of the home theater all the way up audible, I'm saying that at normal voice speech level, you can hear it. Not terribly so, but still to the point where it's a nuisance. It's like a high pitched noise that is one second long, every other second. And the weird thing is that this happens whether the microphone is sitting on the shoe, on the holder with the clamp, or even if I move it around as far as the cable will go.

It took me a while to realize where it was coming from, at first I thought it could have been something in that particular room, so I went around the house while recording, and also outside. This noise is noticeable even outdoors, along with the noise of all the critters typical of this time of the year. I even put my ear half an inch away from the compartment that holds the two memory cards and I can hear the high pitched noise coming from there.

Even weirder, the built in mic doesn't make this noise at all, even if I record in a silent room, with the levels on manual and the highest they will go.

Then, I put the SMX10 in the other camera I own, the Panasonic AG-HMC40, and this annoying noise is not present at all, even when raising the volume really loud.

So I'm puzzled. Is this a noise present because of the XLR adapters and extra cabling, or is it that the AX2000 has this terrible defect and even if I buy an expensive XLR mic for it it will still capture the noise of the card writing?

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

If the camera is electrically noisy when writing to the card, an unbalanced cable like you have with the Azden is inviting interference. That's why pros use balanced mics - the balanced wiring is less susceptible to such outside interference. Stacking the adapters adds to the risk, as you were warned.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

So what you're saying is that this is not an acoustic problem, such as the microphone capturing too much ambient noise, but an electronic interference, the kind that balanced mics are meant to deal with, right?

Still, it has to be design defect in the AX2000, right? Because the Panasonic HMC40 has a direct 3.5mm input and this noise is completely absent from it. I mean, it this was caused only by using unbalanced audio, then the HMC40 should also have this problem, and it doesn't.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Are you saying you can hear the sound with your naked ear when you put your ear next to the camera? Can you still hear it when you put your ear close when the mic is not connected at all? When you said you hear it when the cable was at it's maximum I interpreted that to mean it was audible in the recording even when the mic was removed from the holder and held out several feet away from the camera body.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Right, that's what I meant. If I keep the Azden connected, and the inputs switched to use it, the noise is still there, even when I pull it away from the holder and extend it as far as the cable will go, and even then, the noise is still the same volume, which I think confirms that this is an electronic interference rather than the noise being picked up by the microphone acoustically, because if it was, then it would make sense that the farther I extend the mic, the less the noise is audible, but it remains audible even at about two feet away.

And to answer your first question, yes, if I put my ear really close to the camera's card compartment, I can hear the same noise. I haven't tried with the mic not connected, but I'm sure it would make no difference. At the same time I hear that noise, the green LED next to the card turns red.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Heap big mess bad voodoo.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

The what now?

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Then it does sound like electrical noise of some sort being picked up, probably related to connecting the unbalanced mic to balanced inputs via the adapters, most liekly a ground issue of some sort.. Exactly what is causing it would be hard to guess from a distance. It's likely it wouldn't happen with a balanced mic instead of the Azden - either one mic feeding one channel or a pro-grade stereo mic going into both - but you'll need to try it to know for sure.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

It turns out it was the card causing the noise. It can be because the original card that made the noise was a class 4 and this one is class 6, or that the other was 32 GB and this one 16, or that the other one is a Kingston and this one a Trascend, who knows. To answer that for certain I would have to format all these cards one by one and make several recording tests.

Still, I'll probably order a mono XLR mic because even with the class 6 that doesn't make the annoying chirping noise, I can still hear this hum that while is not excessive and probably wouldn't even be audible when recording a room full of people, it's still there and the built in mic, while inferior in audio quality, doesn't have it. That's the kind of hum that seems to me might be caused by trying to use unbalanced audio with balanced inputs in the camera. I may be totally wrong, but well, I'll order the MXL FR-304 and see, at worst I will have to lose shipping back and forth if I don't like it.

What really sucks is that Sony makes a camera that is superb in almost every aspect but has an internal mic that is worthless. Because if the mic was the same quality as the rest of the camera, then having an external mono XLR mic would be all you need; you flip the two switches to switch to external when you have to record voice, and then flip back to the internal mic when you need stereo. But as it is, with this camera you need two external mics, one mono and one stereo depending on the type of event, but if it is an event where you will need both mono and stereo, you have to disconnect and connect XLR plugs, and if you're using a camera light, then you also have to remove one microphone and put the other in the holder. I couldn't really recommend this camera even though the picture quality is excellent, because the audio part in it is pretty bad.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Cameras in general are their weakest in the audio section, even those costing many times over your Sony. The earliest incarnations of the Red had audio so bad it was virtually unusable for anything beyond a scratch track, for example.

That MXL is kind of long (14.5 inches) for a ' short' shotgun mic and mounted on the camera you likely to have trouble keeping the end from intruding into the edge of the frame when you're zoomed wide. You can only pull it so far back into the holder - all the vents have to stay in front of the clamp. Something like the Rode NTG-1 or -2 at 10 inches long would be a far better choice. Even though it costs double the MXL, IMHO it is a far better value and will actually prove cheaper in the long run. Give some thought to your mount and wind protection. Note that any mic, no matter how directional, is still going to be susceptible to camera and handling noise - a directional mic is not completely deaf to sounds at its side and rear, just less sensitive to them than it is to sounds in the front. The whine of the camera's zoom motor 4 inches from the mic might still be louder than the voice of someone standing 6 feet away.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Good observation. That made me measure this with a tape and it turns out up to 8 inches it's good, then it shows. If I were to put in on a holder on the shoe on top of the camera I have a lot more room until it shows, about 15" or so, but that shoe I want to save in case I need to put the light on it.

I'll probably end up getting the MXL FR-303 for now, which is even cheaper and it's 6" long. Later when I have money I'll look into something way better.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Voices work best in MONO. Ask any professional. I've already explained why. If one wants to get stereo ambient audio as well, that's perfectly fine, but if you only have one mic and have to choose between stereo and mono, you best go with mono, as the voice/dialog is the most important element. You don't sacrifice the most important element so you can hear the birds chirping better, or applause in true stereophonic sound. If stereo ambiance is so important, then make sure you have enough tracks/mics for it. But no, even a Rode SVM at 2 feet is not going to sound as focused as a Rode VM at 2 feet. Dialog is king, and should be preserved.

Remember that most of the Beatles albums were recorded in mono. Stuff sounds good in mono! If you guys want to go rogue and record vox in stereo - go for it. I'm just telling you the proper way to record voice. It's up to you to decide if the trees rustling and crickets and applause is more important. My suggestion is to get enough tracks / mics to do all elements of your sound-scape properly.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Even 320kbps mp3s cut off some frequencies, and their lack of fidelity is more apparent when you start to process them with plugins and EQ. It's like low bitrate video not standing up to color correction. Sure it looks OK off the camera, but when you apply polish it breaks down. IMO wave files don't take up much space compared to video, and disk space is cheap. Don't intentionally use MP3 - there's no real up side to it.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

FR-303 from B&H $120. Rode NTG-1 from B&H $249 Difference = $129 Take PB&J sandwiches instead of visiting McD's for lunch the next two weeks and you've covered it. Buying cheap and later upgrading IS ALWAYS more expensive than figuring out how to get the right stuff with your first purchase.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Well it might take a bit more than two weeks, but that's certainly the right direction to go. McD's lunch = $5.00; three soft drinks = $3.00; there's $8.00 per day = $40.00 per week, buy a better mic in three weeks, very conservatively.

Another problem with buying cheap is that you eventually end up with a house full of old abandoned cheap stuff that didn't quite make the grade. Sure, you can sell it on eBay for 25% of what you paid (unless it's computer gear, in which case take it straight to the recycling dump). All that money down the drain.

Dang, I just figured out where all my money went!

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Chad, we already argued back and forth about this. Yes, voices sound better in mono, but I'm not willing to record a whole outdoor wedding in mono especially when I have the people talking with a mono lavalier on them recording to a digital recorder. Truth is, unless you are like four few feet away from the bride and groom, which is normally not the case, their voice is going to sound awful even with the best mono directional microphone. Sames goes for let's say, a corporate event with a stage and a speaker. Unless you are four feet away from the speaker all the time, which no company will allow, you gotta have a digital recorder plugged into the mixer and get audio from that.

So a mono microphone on the camera is only useful if you do interviews yourself without a journalist, or in the event that you are not allowed to plug your digital recorder into the mixer.

And most of The Beatles albums were not recorded in mono. They were all published in mono as well as stereo. I know because I have the full collection box set, the one that you could buy in either mono or stereo. Even the first album from 1963 is in stereo.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

LOL, what makes you think that I go to McD's for lunch every day, or even once a week? And I eat sandwiches, just not PB&J. That's disgusting, at least to me.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

OK, just eat the bread, leave off the meat, cheese, lettuce, and condiments. It might take a few more weeks, that's all. ;-)

Seriously, here's another way to look at the issue.

For $500, you can get a $500 quality mono mic. Or you can get two $250 quality stereo mics. Would you rather record with $500 audio quality, or with $250 audio quality?

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

That's not really the issue here. I can barely afford to buy a $140 mic, more than that is out of the question. Sometimes it's not a matter of what you want, it's what you can buy that affects your purchases.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

OK, would you rather have a recording with $140 quality audio, or a stereo recording with $70 quality audio?

I guess it depends on the intended use, and on the expectations of the audience. Some people use point-and-shoot cams, some use DSLRs. Depends on whether it's quickie vacation snapshots which will be glued in a scrapbook and never seen again, or professional quality photos with some potential market value.

I have to admit I often carry a DR-03 in my pocket, and get some "audio snapshots" if I hear an interesting street musician, or flock of geese, or passing train, or whatever. But I'd never expect to market something of that quality.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Price and quality don't always go together. Like I said earlier in this thread, my consumer Canon HF100 has far better audio quality than the AX2000's internal mic. To give another example, my $100 Zoom H1 digital recorder has far better quality than the AX2000's internal mic. So the production cost of the H1 is what, $50? So why the hell can't Sony include audio circuitry that is at least the same quality as a $100 digital recorder in a camera that sells for 35 times that price? To me that's outrageous. One thing is for sure, I will seriously look at other brands when I have to purchase my next camera.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Hi the stereo mic that I use is the sony ECM MS957 which is a true M/S mic terminating with a five pin XLR, I then have extension cables to make it into two 3 pin XLR's for hook up to my mixer or camera.

It is mounted on a rode pistol grip with its windgag and a dead rat softie type cover, I use it as my general purpose stereo mic and for collecting stereo sound FX and wild tracks.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Thanks, but after hearing the dreadful quality of the internal mic, I'd rather stay away from Sony.

Re: I need a very cheap stereo XLR mic
 

Nope, as a professional you're buying the tools necessary to do your job. You have to find the money somewhere. You client doesn't care whether you can afford a Schoeps or only an Azden ... all he cares about is you delivering the same or better sound than he would get if he hired your competition. As I've quoted before, to get where you want to be, you have to look (and sound) like you're already there.