Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Does anybody know if there's a decent but cheap 5 pin stereo XLR mic that sells for about $200-300? I have the Audio Technica AUAT875R, which sounds very good, but it's mono, so it's great for voice, but not for ambient sound. I wish AT had something similar in stereo, but their cheapest stereo mic is over $600. I'm not looking for perfection, just anything that is better than the piece of junk built in mic in my Sony AX2000, which sounds like the equivalent of those $5 Coby headphones. So something that sounds as good as the AUAT875R but in stereo would be perfect for me.

Thanks

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I used to use one of these on my Sony V1E for general ambient/background sound:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/290399-REG/Beyerdynamic_465461_MCE72_Portable_Stereo.html
Great for recording trains and getting the nice stereo effect of it passing the camera, for example.

It sounded pretty good to me, but then (a) I'm not an audio pro with $10,000 of gear and (b) I didn't subject it to in-depth scientific testing, I just used my ears!

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Don't know whose price list your looking at with the everything >$600 figure. Audio Technica offers both the AT8022 ($399 @ B&H) and the AT2022 ($249 @ B&H) for under $600. The 8022 outputs on a 5-pin XLR connector and comes with 2 cables, one terminating in two XLRs and the other a single TRS stereo miniplug. The 2022 outputs on a 3 pin XLR but it's wired non-standard as two unbalanced channels and the included cable terminates in a stereo miniplug.

IMHO, a stereo mic should never be camera-mounted, even for ambience. The reason is that as the camera pans, the position of sound sources within the recorded soundfield will shift as the mic's orientation changes along with the changing camera direction. This can be very disorienting for the audience. For stereo recording, the mic's should generally be stationary, thus mounted on a stand. So another approach for recording stereo is to use two ordinary cardioid pencil mics - I have a pair of AT3031's for this - in a stereo mount set up for either X/Y or ORTF recording.

It's considerably over your budget desires but one should also mention the option of adding the Ambient ATE208 Emesser figure-8 mic ($775 @ B&H) to your exisitng shotgun to convert it into a M/S stereo recording rig. Ambient Products Emesser

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I use an Audio-Technica AT825 (X/Y configuration - purchased used $190) and a Sony ECM-MS957 (M/S configuration - purchased used $90) with great results.

Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : AT825 OnePoint® X/Y Stereo Field Recording Microphone- (DISCONTINUED)

Sony Model ECM-MS957

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I second the recommendation about the AT825 (and the use of it off camera for the reasons stated). I bought two used ones on eBay about 3 years ago (one for me and one for a friend, both about £100 at the time as I recall) and we've had some really great results. It has got a higher noise floor than some more modern, expensive stereo mics (e.g. from Rode) but gives a lovely open sound.

It's pretty suspeptible to wind noise when used outside but I now have a thin 5 strand stereo cable made for me by Rycote that allows me to use the AT825 inside my Rycote S330 Series - that helps a lot!

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

To me it's quite the opposite. If the camera is panning, but the sounds keep coming from the same place, that would be terribly disconcerting to me. Putting the stereo mic on the camera is as close as you can get to human ear perception. Let's suppose you're on the shore of a lake, with the camera facing towards the water. You have a group of ducks quaking on the right about 30 feet away, you have a motor boat more or less straight from you in the water, and a group of kids playing about 50 feet to your right. If you were there by yourself, without a camera or mic, and you start turning your head to the left, the sounds are not going to stay in the same place. If you turn left 90 degrees you're going to hear the ducks behind you, the motor boat on your right, and the kids in front of you. So if you're panning the camera with the mic on top, you're going to get about the same thing. But if you leave the mic on a tripod facing forwards towards the lake, and you pan the camera to the left, the video is not going to match the audio. You will see kids playing right in front of the camera but you will hear them on the left. You will hear a motor boat in front of you that you will not see on the screen, and quacks on your right that you won't see either.

I remember now when we were talking about mics a few months ago that the AT8022 was mentioned by you or somebody else, but now I remember why I didn't consider it: because it would look awful mounted on a camera. It looks to be great as a stage microphone, not for camera. Besides the AT is $400, so I might give that $239 Beyerdynamic a try. I've never had anything from that brand before, but if I don't like at worst I lose $5 shipping it back. My doubt on that one is if it can be used as a real XLR stereo microphone, because it comes with a XLR to 3.5mm cable. I can always get the 5 pin XLR to two 3 pin XLR from Monoprice, as long as the microphone works that way.

It would be great if companies would post an audio sample of their microphones on their pages, right now you can either buy a mic and try it yourself, of you can see if maybe somebody did a test on YouTube with it, but with highly compressed sound.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Some do ... check out Schoeps Microphone Showroom

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Wow! Great info. Thanks!

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Well, at those prices, they have to, unless they just want to sell by word of mouth. Very impressive sound obviously. Still they should put up downloadable samples in Wav so people can download them and see how much they can tweak them. That's what made me get two of those Giant Squid lavalier mics, they sound muffled compared to expensive lavaliers, but if you raise the high end they sound decent. As far as cheap mics go, that makes them very different from the abomination Sony put in the AX2000. That one is so bad that it's impossible to fix with any EQ. Actually if anybody wants to take on the challenge, I can upload a couple of clips, one from my AUAT875R and the other from the AX2000's built in of me walking on gravel with the camera pointing down, and see if somebody can find an EQ curve to match the Sony to the AUAT875R. I tried but I couldn't. Something tells me it's more difficult than just adjusting frequencies.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Actually that demo is a very recent online addition ... Schoeps did very well strictly by word-of-mouth since the days following WWII, becoming a top-drawer industry standard long before the internet was even a glimmer in Al Gore's eyes.

One of the nice things on that showroom is the comparison between various stereo techniques - if you wonder how an X/Y versus an A/B versus an MS arrangement might sound, the diagram both shows you the mic placement used and lets you hear the different recording quality you get with each. For dialog, the comparison beween the MK41 hyper cap and the CMIT5u shotgun at various distances from the speaker can be especially instructive. Notice the hollow feeling creeping in on the 'gun at 6 feet, even in the controlled studio environment.

There are some tweakable samples illustrating surround techniques other places on their site.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Yes, it can be used via XLR. You just need a 5-pin to 2x3pin XLR lead, which (oddly) it doesn't come with.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I use the sony ECM MS957 as my std stereo mic, it is great value and is a true M/S design.

Have used mine for over 15 years in mainstream broadcast on anything that needs a good stereo image or wild track.

My std shotguns are the AT875R and find they compliment each other OK.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

How about Superlux S502? It is cheap, maybe the cheapest. Some people experience reliability problem maybe caused by humidity. I have no such problem, as I always keep it in a de-humidifier when not in use.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I was at a bar a few hours ago shooting a rock band and it was a small bar, so basically they were squeezed into a corner and I was about 6 to 10 feet away from them. Their speakers were really loud, and I was shooting this with my AX2000, with the input volume to manual and monitoring using around the ear headphones. I started with the built in mic because even though I had connected my Zoom H2 to their mixer, I was getting audio in only one channel, and they didn't even know how to fix that. As soon as they started playing, I lowered the volume to a point where I was sure it was far from clipping, I'm guessing -6dB or so. However, I could still hear sort of an analog distortion at some points when the song got louder, even though the levels were still way below 0dB on the level.

So after a while I switched to the Audio Technica mic, which not surprisingly sounded a lot better, although in mono, so I didn't use it for long because this is music and a whole rock band coming out of one speaker sounds dull even if the mic is great. But I noticed when listening to the audio back home that the AT AUAT875R, even though I had also set the input volume very low with it and it doesn't have any digital clipping, it does have that awful analog distortion at some points.

Two weeks ago I shot an engagement party and the music was really loud. Same thing happened, I set the volume manually very low, and it doesn't have any digital clipping, but then there's a lot of analog distortion, especially when people yell on top of the music.

So that makes me wonder, are there microphones that are made especially for capturing extremely loud sounds such as when you need to shoot a party with loud music, that will not have that analog distortion? I'm asking because I was set on buying that Beyerdynamics MCE72 stereo mic, which even if not great it has to be a lot better than the AX2000's built in stereo mic, but this analog distortion thing presents a problem, because I want to do weddings and other social events with parties, so I need a stereo mic that can capture loud music without analog distortion.

Any suggestions?

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Your AT875R is rated for a maximum sound pressure level of 127dB. That would not make it the highest max SPL mic available but it's certainly respectable. 127dBSPL is in the realm of levels that can cause permanent hearing damage with even relatively short exposures so it's unlikely you're actually encountering levels that high. That means the problem is probably not in the mic itself, more likely you are getting overload in the mic input circuits, upstream of any recording level controls before they have had a chance to tame those really hot peaks. First thing I'd try would be adding an in-line pad, say -10dB to -15dB or so, between the mic and the camera/mixer/recorder input and see if that improves the situation. Also make sure the mic is getting full 48v phantom. Even though it's rated as working with anything from 12 to 50 volts, trying to run on less than full voltage sometimes can compomise a mic's high SPL handling.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Thanks for your reply, Steve. So you think the problem is in my camera and its audio circuits rather than the microphone itself? I'm asking because if at some point in the future I need to buy another camera that would be something to look for in a new camera, the ability to handle loud volume both through the built in mic and the XLR input. Adding the attenuator would make this already long connector on the side of the camera twice as long, about 6 inches, but I will get one to keep in my pocket just in case.

However, I still have to try one thing that yesterday I didn't because I couldn't stop shooting to go through the menu. The camera, in the audio menu, has one item that is called XLR set > Audio 1 trim, and you can adjust that anywhere from +12dB to -18dB. Perhaps that works as an attenuator between the microphone and the camera input level knob. I'll see if I can run a test playing music very loud with my home theater, which won't be as loud as the levels I got last night, but the room is also much smaller than the bar, so maybe that will create the same level overall.

As far as making sure the mic is getting full 48v, the switch in the camera where the XLR inputs are is set to +48v, however, if your question is how do I make sure it's getting actual 48 volts, I have no idea how to measure that. But I'm guessing it's working fine, as the microphone works great.

Thanks,

Sebastian

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Also, Steve, what would be the cheapest stereo directional XLR mic you can think of. I mention directional because that is ideally what I need, a microphone that can capture voices well but without the dullness of mono, because mono is perfect as long as people are just talking, but when there's clapping, or when there's music, mono just sounds dull. I noticed that while editing an Indian engagement party I shot a few weeks ago, in which I used the Audio Technica for all the parts where the emcee was talking, but at one point she starts dancing to some Indian music, and even though the sound is very good, it just sounds boring coming out of just the center channel. The rest of the music I shot using the built in mic, and even though I had to raise the higher end a lot, in the end it sounds better because it's coming from all the channels (as long as Dolby Prologic II is used in the receiver).

The Azden SMX-10 microphone I have gives me that, pretty good sound (not as good as the AT, but still far better than a built in mic) and at the same time it captures voices very well, while still capturing the clapping and ambient sounds pretty well, but it doesn't capture everything around the microphone, it focuses much more on what's in front of it. Unfortunately the Azden is 3.5mm and I need an XLR stereo. Can you think of a less than $400 alternative?

And, what do you think about adding a second AT like the one I have? I know that would not work for ambient stereo, but would it give me a kind of directional stereo, since both would be directional mono?

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

The internal software menu trim adj. will probably give you the attenuation you need.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I'm going to have to disagree with Rick and express my doubts that the menu "trim" adjust will fix the problem. By being adjustable between +12 and -18 it sounds like it's a coarse gain adjustment for the recording circuits and I'm concerned the signal overload is occuring before those gain control circuits have any chance to act on the signal. Some cameras that have a mechanical switch for their mic sensitivity actually do switch an internal pad right at the input but I have my doubts that's how this control works. It would be nice if camera manufacturers published block diagrams of the audio stages the way some of the better mixer manufacturers do but alas, that's not to be. No harm in trying it, but the in-line pad is cheap at $20 to $50. In any case, I doubt your 'playback on the home theatre' test is going to be a valid simulation unless you have the speakers and the amplifier power required to crank up the volume to window cracking levels. Driving a consumer level theatre system that loud is going to introduce distortion in the playback itself which of course will be recorded during your test.

Mentioned the phantom voltage thing because some devices have a switch that selects either 12v or 48v phantom while others, like some of the Zoom recorders, may claim to be supplying 'phantom' power but only put out 24 volts or so. Since your camera says it's 48v I'd accept that that's not the issue.

A second shotgun would not give you stereo (as well as making your camera look like it has antlers). The narrow pattern of a shotgun doesn't lend itself to setting up a stereo array. Shotguns are like narrow beam spotlights, isolating the single sound at where they're pointed from the surroundings - that's what they're made for for. Stereo mics are like diffused floodlights - spread over a wide angle and picking up multiple sounds coming from across a broad area, preserving the sensation of their locations within that area. Narrow single point pickup, broad area pickup - two diametrically opposed criteria. And to continue the analogy, imagine a dark stage with two people on it, one far right and the other far left. At best two shotguns would be like hitting each person with a spot but leaving the rest of the stage dark. For true stereo, you want to light the entire stage, including the area between them.

How did you handle the audio where you had the 'dull sounding' music? Your camera would have recorded it to one track I'm thinking. Did you pan that track into both channels in post?

If you want to try the Azden, it can be done with your camera with a little ingenuity. You could wire up a female TRS 1/8 jack to two XLR3-M plugs if you're handy with a soldering iron. (Haven't spotted any ready-built on the web so it may be a DIY proposition.) Or you could just get a stereo breakout Y cable such as the Hosa YMR-197, 1 female stereo TRS jack to 2 male RCA plugs, and two RCA-F to XLR3-M adapters such as the Hosa GCM-133. That would let you connect your Azden's 3.5 plug to the left and right mic inputs on your camera.

If it were me, after testing the concept of a stereo mic on the camera with your Azden, I'd bite the bullet, get a proper professional stereo mic and be done with it. I'm not wealthy by any stretch but the right tool is the right tool and sometimes you just have to figure out a way to pay the tariff. If it's any consolation it whould be tax deductable if you're charging for your services. The right question to ask is not "what can I get for less than $400," it's "what tools will I need in order to deliver the job at the level of quality I require, where do I get them and what's the least I'll need to pay for them." (Okay, that's three questions.)

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I think a "directional stereo" mic is a contradiction in terms. Maybe what you need to do is record a stereo ambience track (perhaps on a separate recorder) and then mix that with a close-up mono track of the speaker, from a mic mounted on a lecturn, on the speaker's collar or perhaps from a shotgun mic (boom, or on-camera if the camera's quite close).

You might get the effect you want with a "Mid/Side" stereo mic, which mixes the output from a directional mic (for the real subject) and a figure-8 mic (for the ambience). Some MS mics give you a fixed mix (or maybe a choice of 2 or 3 - such as the Sony ECM-MS957 mentioned earlier), but to really control things you need one that gives you the raw output from the two capsules that you can mix on the time-line. This can be tricky, as I understand it (not tried it myself yet). Also, figure-8 mics are VERY susceptable to wind noise - tricky outdoors.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

I was thinking that maybe it could get close because of the size of the room. My home theater is far from the high end models that are thousands of dollars, but it still can put out a decent level without distorting. While it wouldn't get close to the amp and speakers at that bar in raw output, if you consider the small size of my entertainment room when compared to that bar, wouldn't the levels the microphone capture be similar?

I synchronized the track from the camera with the one from the mixer, which was mono on the left channel so I copied the left channel to the right channel to get it centered, and it works well with the stereo from the AX2000 built in mic, because the latter produces an extremely wide stereo, and the mono track from the mixer gives it a little more presence, especially the voice. I also applied to both tracks the Izotope Mastering EQ that comes bundled with Edius 6, raising the low and high ends. This is always necessary with the AX2000's audio because its built in mic drops the high end quite a lot. It still sounds bad whatever you do, but at least it sounds a little better raising the high end.

Of the songs I chose for the highlights video (that's all I'm doing with the footage) there was only one where I had used the AT mic so in that case both tracks were in mono and it sounded a little dull, so what I did was to use the Voxengo Stereo Touch VST plugin, which produces a fake mono that normally sounds awful by itself, but since this is in combination with the mono track from the mixer the end result sounds fine and gives it a little more ambiance. I will post the link to the video as soon as I upload it to show you what I did.

You might not remember, but we had talked about this on another thread a while ago. I tried the Azden using a 3.5mm female to two RCA male short cable, and two RCA to XLR adapters to connect it to the camera, and I had two problems: one, that I couldn't use any of my Kingston memory cards because it introduced a weird screeching noise every second, which it didn't do with the other cards, but my 32 GB cards are Kingston; and two, even with the other cards that didn't have this problem, it had a low frequency hum that was very noticeable.

I'll probably end up buying the Beyerdynamics at first and then if business goes well something much better in the future.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

Why is it a contradiction? I can tell there's a big difference between the stereo field of my Azden SMX10 and that of the typical built in microphone. Built in mics usually get a 180 degree stereo while the Azden seems to get a 90 degree or less, which is great for an on=camera microphone, because it allows you to get voices well while still having some sort of stereo when you need it for applause, or if you're shooting a wedding outdoors and you want some ambient sounds and clapping, but still being able to capture the voices with some clarity. With typical stereo ambient mics voices are not captured very well, a directional stereo mic may not be as good as a directional mono one, but it's still good.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

As well as being expensive. I'm not aware of any figure-8's that are down in the couple of hundred dollar range. If I were personally putting together an M/S stereo mic array with a highly directional mid, I'd get an Ambient ATE208 Emesser figure-8 kit and mount it on my Rode NTG-3 ... but that's going to run way over the budget Sebastian wants to keep within.

Re: Cheapest 5 pin XLR stereo mic?
 

In the end, I decided to go for an cheaper solution, although it will make things a bit more complicated when editing, but at least I will get the best of both worlds. I bought these two things:




So I will keep on using the AT directional mono microphone, but I will also use my Zoom H1 recorder mounted on that bracket, while also being able to use the on camera light. That way, I can still get the good voice sound of the AT microphone and at the same time get the stereo capture that will give me great audio for applause, or if there's music, or even ambient sounds if it's an outdoor wedding or something similar. And I already checked that the H1's microphone sounds a lot better than the built in mic in the AX2000.

The biggest problem with this solution is that I have to remember to press record on two buttons, and if it's an event that is 6 hours or less I will just leave both camera and the H1 recording the whole time so I don't have to worry about synchronizing several times.