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New to external mics
Hello. I am looking for advice on choosing (not high-end but workable) external mics for a Canon XA10. Total mic budget is 350-400.
Ideally, I am not liking internal mic due to wind. This is needed... 1. Shotgun mic for distant subject sounds (like the AT875 http://tinyurl.com/3xtwy6 ) 2. Omni mic of some sort for stereo ambient sound. Vids are nice when this is clear. 3. A mic for my voice that can record me at a constant level (even with my head bobbing all over the place). Do I need 3 mics? Any hardware recommendations would be very appreciated. Thanks. |
Re: New to external mics
All mics are subject to wind. It's how you dress the mic that can make the difference. Be it a foam cover (minimal) a furry or dead cat or a blimp.
I don't know of any one mic that will be able to accomplish your needs. that doesn't mean it's not out there but I have never seen or heard of one. When you say distance, how far is the distance you want to cover? Many mics will get you ambient sound along with sounds you might not want but again no 1 mic is a do it all. As for not changing levels as you turn your head...mic's generally work on the premise that you are speaking into the mic and turning your head away from it your mic will not pick up the same level of sound as if your head was facing the mic. IMO you'll either need multiple mics running thru a mixer OR you need to decide what is most important to you and let the rest fall where it may. Other, much more knowledgable folks will pop in here and be able to give more precise answers. |
Re: New to external mics
Hi Nick
It would be a lot more helpful if you identified what you are likely to shoot most and at what distance. As an example at weddings, I use a Rode Videomic on my camera for doing "roving interviews" with guests where I am no further than 3 or 4' from the subject so I get good audio...at a wedding ceremony where a camera is around 30' from the couple a shotgun on the camera is totally worthless and you need lav mics on the officiant and the groom....apart from ambient audio an external mic to get good audio needs to be really close to a subject for recording speech.... I really don't know what you are in to and a general shotgun just might be all you need?? Filming race cars would be fine but expecting the same mic to pick up the winner's speech from 100' away just won't work. A little extra info will allow people here to decide what to use...in my gear inventory I have two Rode Videomics, two AKG boundary mics and three Azden radio mics with lavs...and that's just for weddings!! There is often a different mic for a different situation!! Chris |
Re: New to external mics
Thanks for the help. I am mostly shooting wildlife in the woods. Birds, mammals, usually no more than 50' away. The goal is to hear their rustling, calling etc, mixed with good local sound and my voice (level).
I am assuming the Canon xa10 mixes the input from both xlrs. Hope that's right. If I use the AT875 to maximize the primary subject's sound, would something like a stereo lav mic with a wind sock record my voice and ambient sound better than the shotgun? Too bad the XA10's 'MIC' input won't mix with the XLR inputs. Budget won't allow an external mixer, assuming every option is in the several hundreds of $. Maybe I am pushing my luck and tiny budget :-) Is there such a thing as a decent sounding stereo lapel mic with a wind sock? Hmm... now realizing that a lav mic cannot pick up ambient well. :-( |
Re: New to external mics
Huh, 50 feet?
Why not 50 miles when it comes to microphones, same problem only harder, still do - able if you have the Defence Department budget to play with. You want 50', you either go with external mics on transmitters, stragetically placed where the talent is (been there, done that, works great, except they will insist on crapping all over the gear, in the case of birds), or a reflector mic with a dish, no other options. You want ambient - any omni will do the job, even get that car going down the freeway 5 miles away, chainsaw 10 miles away etc without too much efffort. Want your voice "up close and personal"? Lav, no other option that I can see. Beginning to see the problem(s)? CS |
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My laptop screen cleans easily, fortunately. PS I use small sandwich bags on the TX but the little b***ers always manage to get the mic somehow. |
Re: New to external mics
I would say the answer here is a reflector...scount around the shops that sell "spy/surveillance" gear and you will find one.
BTW: All pro cams with two XLR inputs will record one to channel 1 and one to channel two but if you only use one XLR channel you can always mix/duplicate the signal in your NLE Chris |
Re: New to external mics
Nick, shotgun mics are NOT for distant subjects. It sounds like you're falling for the common myth that a shotgun mic is somehow a "telephoto lens for sound" magnifying distant sounds so that you can record them clearly. This is not at all what they do. A shotgun does not have any more sensitivity to distant sounds than does any other mic; instead it has reduced sensitivity to sound arriving from the sides and rear so as to better isolate the sound source towards which it's pointed from the surrounding environment.
Why record your voice at the time you shoot in the field? Sounds like you want to include narration but the time to do that is in post-production, not when shooting. A single omni mic does NOT record stereo ambiance. Stereo requires two mics that are placed one of several specific patterns with regard to the sound source. Simply recording to two channels does not make it stereo. In point of fact, stereo is only rarely recorded in the field and is generally limited to music. |
Re: New to external mics
Here is a link to a wildlife rig
Parabolic Microphones SME PR-1000 Parabolic Microphone Reflector : SME Nature Division I'm sure there are many more online. If you have to do narration then you can plug your dish into XLR1 and then plug a lav mic into XLR2 and clip it on your shirt collar and do your narration. Chris |
Re: New to external mics
The Shure web site has some interesting white papers on recording and on microphones. Worth reading.
The above comments are generally spot on. A microphone is dumb, all sound reaching it is heard. Some mics just are less sensitive to sound off axis according to its directionality pattern. Unlike the human ear-brain system, a mic cannot differentiate among sounds coming from the same direction ignoring some in favor of others - the loudest sound is heard best. As the mic moves further from the person speaking (or other sound source) the venue acoustics and background noises come more into play and what you record sounds different, and it will not be quite the same as your ears hear. A compressor is a solution to varing sound levels as you turn your head, found in most audio editing programs, and a potential benefit (of sorts) of the audio AGC in camcorders. Using a lav mic can help. Recording wishes among folk at a reception. I find a wireless with handheld mic works great. Because the mic is a few inches form the lips of the person speaking the obnoxious DJ playing distored music does not drown them out if I am shooting from the other side of the table. |
Re: New to external mics
Appreciate the "input" on this. :-)
I understand the point about shotgun mics achieving their effect by cancellation as opposed to some sort of magnification. While I have no experience with professional external mics, I used the Canon DM–50 on a consumer camcorder for a couple of years. In shotgun mode, that mic was able to pick up all sorts of sounds that would otherwise be drowned out by ambient noise. We love to head over to the airport and film small aircraft takeoffs and landings. That basic shotgun mic hybrid was able to somehow grab the sound of landing gear retraction at 500 feet, that I had never heard previously. By marvelous coincidence, I just found an Olympus ME51S electret condenser microphone in my desk drawer. Olympus ME-51S Stereo Microphone 145037 B&H Photo Video It was originally bought to record natural sounds to an Olympus digital recorder. It is not directional so I think it might serve to blend my voice and ambient sounds and an acceptable way, provided I can cover it somehow. Does this arrangement below, for the olympus lav mic make sense? Connect mic to this adapter... http://www.soundprofessionals.com/ma...RM3-MINI-3.jpg and then connect that to the camera's 2nd xlr input by a 6 foot xlr female to male. Not sure if hum is an issue at 6 feet but preventing it is the point of adding xlr adapter right at the olympus mic. |
Re: New to external mics
For wildlife sounds maybe a mic with a parabolic reflector would be good. Search Wikipedia for "Parabolic microphone".
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I looked into this, but the need to travel light prevents it. The xa10 shotgun mount prevents any mirror, assuming even a small one would help.
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Re: New to external mics
You'd never attach a dish to the camera, it would always have a separate mic. However, the closeup sounds you often hear on the big TV docs are often not the sound of the subject, because with long lenses, there really is no audio equivalent that is not seriously BIG! good quality sound at a distance is possible if you can set it up in advance, but doing wildlife and expecting good audio at a distance at random locations is going to mean complex and expensive audio, or an effects session in post!
At 50 feet, a creature's purring or growling is likely to be so quiet that recording is not a simple task. You also sound like you want to record you doing on the spot commentary too - not really a problem, any of the usual interview omnis would be fine (my favourite the Beyer M58) but then you'll need extra people to work it all. Are we on the right track? |
Re: New to external mics
Not yet but getting there. :-)
Don't need quiet low frequency sounds of subject. Just their calls and louder rustling sounds are what I am usually looking for. Always solo for the technical part. My wife often helps spotting but that's it. Here is an issue with the olympus lav mic. During testing with the MIC input on the xa10 nothing is being picking up. Is this mic not compatible with the xa10 1/8" mini terminal? Here are the mic specs Type Stereo Electret Condenser Microphone Frequency Response 100Hz - 15kHz Directivity Uni-directional x 2 Sensitivity -40dB @ 1kHz Impedance 2.2 kOhms Plug 3.5mm Stereo Power Supply Plug-in-power System (1.5V - 10V) and here are the xa10 mic input specs f3.5 mm stereo minijack (unbalanced) Sensitivity For microphone input: -65 dBV (auto volume, full scale -12 dB) / 5 kO For line input: -30 dBV (auto volume, full scale -12 dB) / 5 kO Microphone attenuator: 20 dB |
Re: New to external mics
Okay, research shows I probably need a preamp for this sort of lav mic. Guess I'll play this out here for posterity :-)
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Re: New to external mics
The Olympus mic needs "plug-in power" in order to work. (This is fairly common: most consumer-grade electret mics need this.)
Therefore, the Canon mic input needs to supply "plug-in power" to the microphone. You'll need to read your manual to find out for sure. The specs listed on the Canon website say there are two XLR input jacks; these definitely will not have "plug-in power." However, the specs also mention a 3.5mm stereo input jack. If this can be used for the mic input, it may have the "plug-in power" that you need. The specs do not mention it. However, "plug-in power" has been very common on consumer equipment for at least ten years, so it seems likely that the camera provides it. Of course you need to have the input switched to "mic" mode. The "line" input mode will not have plug-in power, and also will not have enough gain for any mic level signal. |
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Greg. The xa10 has +48v phantom power for the 2 xlr inputs. Will this give the needed power if I convert the stereo mic 1/8" to xlr?
Here is a question that will show my ignorance. If a mic has a stereo signal and is fed to one xlr input, will that stereo be preserved or blended to mono? I'm wanting a shotgun mic in one xlr and a stereo in the other. Guess I'm wondering if these camcorders have a mixing function in them. |
Re: New to external mics
No! +48 volt will likely destroy the consumer mic you have, which is designed to operate from a maximum of 10 volts.
+48 volt phantom is entirely different from "plug in power." True phantom is used for professional condenser mics with balanced wiring. You have a consumer mic with unbalanced wiring and "plug in power." You can't burn aviation fuel in your volkswagen, and you can't use phantom power with a consumer mic. A consumer mic like yours has left channel (unbalanced) on one terminal (tip), right channel (unbalanced) on one terminal (ring), and common ground as well as shield on the third terminal (sleeve). A professional XLR connector has "hot" signal on one terminal (pin 2) and inverted signal on one terminal (pin 3), thus giving balanced connectivity, and shield on pin 1. Phantom voltage (if it's turned on) appears equally on pin 2 and pin 3. Of course there are many possible inter-connections between 3.5mm TRS and XLR, so I can't say with 100% certainty what would happen. If sleeve=pin 1, tip=pin 2, and ring=pin 3 (a likely adapter configuration), and if your stereo mic had its own internal power supply (which it does not -- so it won't work at all), then any audio common to both channels (typically your voice if you're equidistant from the two mic elements) would nearly cancel out and become inaudible (or at least very "thin" and wretched sounding). Only the stereo component (sounds that appeared almost exclusively in one channel of the other) would show up in the XLR input; and they would be out-of-phase, at that. To properly use your present consumer mic with that recorder, at the very least you need a battery box which provides the "plug-in power" to the mic, and passes the audio through to the 3.5mm mic input on the camcorder. Otherwise you need a mixer which provides power and proper connectivity for input and output. As it stands now, each XLR input on your camcorder is one channel, for a total of two. If you want to record stereo (two) plus a mono narration track, that's a total of three. The only possibility would be if your camera can mix the XLR inputs with the 3.5mm input. Read your manual. If you really want to do something this complex, you will ultimately need a mixer, and one that has the proper connectivity for whatever mics you're using. If some of them are professional mics needing phantom power, and some are consumer mics needing "plug in power" then good luck to you... that will be a rather strange mixer IMHO. (Translation: you can't get $5,000.00 production audio with a $300.00 budget.) |
Re: New to external mics
Wow this is really helpful. Thanks for jumping in here. You should charge a consulting fee for that level of knowledge... kidding : - )
Can you possibly recommend hardware that might give me the desired effect? Is there a way to get a separate stereo signal to mix with the shotgun signal in a harmonious way? The camera cannot mix xlr and the MIC terminal. The MIC terminal can only mix with the built in mics. Is each xlr a separate stereo input. My budget for a stereo lapel mic and anything else needed (excluding the shotgun) is around 200. Was hoping to add this mic to an Audio Technica AT875, each using an xlr input. |
Re: New to external mics
Nick, you seem to not grasping the stereo / mono bit.
A Stereo mic is actually 2 microphones in a single setup, it has 2 outputs L & R it needs to be recorded separately onto individual tracks, and if your camera only has 2 audio tracks that's all you can record.. If you mix L+R you will get MONO which is the same as a single mic and can't be descrambled back into stereo....EVER Lav mics are MONO mics. Shotgun mics are MONO mics. Hand mics are MONO mics. Stereo mics in many of configurations are regarded as specialist mics |
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If you want to do that, then you'd need a way to record two more channels, in addition to the two channels on your camera. Many people would use something like a Tascam, Sony, or other portable stereo recorder (which you could use for the stereo ambience). Then in post, you'd sync up the camera with the separate audio, and finally produce the desired mix of those four channels. Now, if you had a good audio person working with you, and a portable audio mixer, you could perhaps -- with luck -- achieve a good two-channel mix on the fly, and record that on the two channels of your camera. But working alone, you will never get a good mix of all those different elements, while running the camera and worrying about the image. And once those elements are mixed down to two tracks on the camera, there is no way you will separate them and clean up the mix in post. Quote:
Next, you seem determined to get a shotgun, although that's really not the right tool for quiet animal noises at 50' distance. Then you need a pair of mics if you want stereo ambience. That's a total of four mics. And finally, if you want to record and mix it live, which is a really bad idea, you need to buy a mixer. Fuggedaboddit!!!!!!!!!!!! You are many times over your budget. You are using an $1100.00 camera, you can expect your audio gear to cost at least that much, given the complexity of the track that you want to capture. (Or do you want cheesy "Radio Shack" quality audio to accompany your beautiful HD image?) The simple way out: buy a portable stereo recorder (Tascam DR-05 or similar) and use its stereo mics to capture ambience. That whole works will set you back about $100.00. Get some modest mono lav mic for your narration. Spend whatever's left on a good rig for your "distant animal grunts" recording. (IMHO a parabolic will be much more selective than any other kind of mic.) Record those two mics on the camera, and mix that with the ambience in post. That's your best shot at getting it done within your budget. |
Re: New to external mics
Ok I've absorbed most of this now.
I paid 1999. Expecting this camcorder to come down. Hope it isn't that low already :-( Now understand that the camera cannot possibly mix stereo input and shotgun mono. Suppose that the 2nd xlr is only useful for an additional mic. I guess the stereo recorder is the best option. Since there will be redundant ambient sound in the lav, the recorder and whatever I use to record "grunts," will there be some cancellation or other negative effect? |
Re: New to external mics
"Nick, you seem to not grasping the stereo / mono bit."
Well it was the xlr inputs that were not understood. Now I do. Thanks very much for clarifying. Why is the field mixer a bad idea? That would eliminate all of the sound remixing. |
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Remember that almost NONE of the sound you hear in nature videos was recorded on the camera or in sync with shooting the video. The right (or safe) place for a camera is ALMOST NEVER the right place for a microphone to pick up nature sounds. The sounds are typically either collected separately (optimized for sound recording, not for shooting video) or a surprisingly large percentage of what you hear in nature videos was created artificially by Foley artists during post-production (perhaps thousands of miles from the original action.) |
Re: New to external mics
I did read it again and thought about it. In spite of my "gaff" regarding xlr (another good pun :-), my chin remains high. Personally I enjoy complex problems and am relishing working this out. Struggling to balance audio levels while sitting on a log is my idea of fun!
So based on everything (and unwarranted optimism), this appeals http://static.bhphoto.com/images/largeimages/294571.jpg and this http://static.bhphoto.com/images/largeimages/495302.jpg Regarding this, Quote:
That ends up with $310 including tax and shipping. I am flat on my face if the Olympus is still not going to work. It would have combined my voice and ambient sources nicely, reducing the input to 3 channels and simplifying things. |
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Okay, I mis-read Greg's post then. Forgetting the Olympus... a stereo lapel mic of some sort would solve a lot here.
Mainly, it would allow me to narrate at a reasonably balanced level (in spite of moving around) and would pick up ambient sound, combining both into 2 channels. From experience, a wearable stereo mic of this size and quality, along with one of these types of covers http://tinyurl.com/9sojctc is adequate for what I do. Can your recommend a "type" of wearable mic that would be compatible with the mixer? Still have $90 in the budget. |
Re: New to external mics
There are no "stereo" lapel mics. Reason: the concept is ridiculous. Only politicians (who talk out of both sides of their mouth) need stereo microphones for speech.
Trying to record speech AND ambient sounds concurrently with the same microphone is just insane. Nobody who knows what they are doing would even dream of trying that. You have no control over the balance or "mix" between the speech and the ambient sounds. |
Re: New to external mics
Nick,
With all due respect to you as a human being, you have mis-read numerous things that have been stated (and re-stated) here. You insist on disagreeing with all the technical information that has been given to you. Numerous people have tried to explain this from various perspectives, and in every case you end up explaining why these people are wrong. You've obviously already decided what you want to do, and you go to great pains to explain that your preconceived idea is more valid than our combined years of experience. So let me boil this down to one non-technical question, which is more philosophical in nature: Are you here to get advice, or to give it? |
Re: New to external mics
Responding to Richard's post first
I'm hoping for product recommendations. The Olympus mic that I own is a stereo lapel mic and does an acceptable (in my opinion very good) job of just this. I'm an amateur filming hawks and armadillos with an xa10, not the audio track for a motion picture. :-) To show these mics exist, its the bottom one in the pic. http://tinyurl.com/9sojctc This is an omni-directional stereo mic that works quite well on one's lapel. Being phantom powered lav mics are expensive (for my budget), can anyone recommend a small battery box that would allow the Olympus to transmit the right voltage to the mixer? It would be very appreciated. Greg Please reread my replies. Your statement indicating that I have said "why" everyone is wrong does not reflect what has happened. Today, you may have gotten angry but I have learned a great deal. Yesterday I knew nearly nothing. Please don't say I still do know nothing, that would be trite. My current plan is to use a shotgun (to everyone's disapproval) based though on my past success with them for my use. The battery pack to connect a stereo lapel (again used in the past with success) comes from your recommendation. You have taught a rank amateur (very appreciated) and were mostly patient with me. Hang in there! Nick |
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The mic does not provide the DC power to the mixer or recorder or camera. The mixer or recorder or camera should provide DC power to make the mic work.... or else you need the battery box. Really, Nick, you have so badly misconstrued the technical details that I'm afraid to give you any further suggestions, for fear that you will misinterpret them and either waste money on the wrong hardware, or muck up something (e.g. blowing up a mic by using the wrong power). (If I needed such a power supply, I'd build one. Obviously since you continue to confuse phantom power with "plug in power" and have no basic understanding of electronics, it's not safe for you to even contemplate building such a thing.) If you get the correct mixer, it will provide power for the mic; you won't need a battery box at all. On the other hand, if you get the wrong mixer, or use the wrong adapter, and feed the wrong power to the mic, you have a very good chance of blowing up the mic. Read the specs for the mic. Read the specs for the mixer in question. That should answer all your questions. If not, you'd be better off consulting a reliable dealer who can hold your hand and hopefully avoid any fatal errors. In fact, you obviously don't have very high expectations about the audio quality. I think the simplest thing for you to do is just go to the local Radio Shack (not to be confused with "reliable dealer") and let them sell you some consumer junk. If it works to your satisfaction (i.e. getting $50 sound to accompany your $1100 picture) then that's great. If it doesn't work, or blows up something else, then at least you'll know who to blame. |
Re: New to external mics
Mr. Mirro, Those are cheap plastic consumer toys. They are not "lav" mics as witnessed by the fact that most of them have a 3.5mm stereo jack where they are intended to plug directly into your little toy recorder, not hang from your necktie or clip to your blouse.
I shouldn't have to even say this here, but nobody seriously believes that you can get any significant "stereo" effect from two microphone capsules (especially omnidirectional ones) spaced less than an inch apart. Those things are sold to technically ignorant consumers who don't know any better. But of course if you have your mind made up, nothing we write here will have any effect on your decision. OTOH, for others who are reading this, get a clue and do some reasonable research. I regret even getting into this hopeless conversation. |
Re: New to external mics
So Richard said this regarding whether the mixer could power the Olympus mic.
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Richard, The separate $69 (my price) Olympus stereo mic comes with a tie-clip and an extension. |
Re: New to external mics
Nick:
What are the specs for the "desired mixer" ? I think I've stated more than once that you need to check the specs. You seem to be ignoring this. |
Re: New to external mics
Nick, why do you want to record your commentary in the field as you're shooting? You're going to be busier than a one-armed paper hanger trying to handle the camera and record clear, coherent narration at the same time and both elements of a successful video are going to suffer as a result. Record and add your narration commentary later as part of the editing process.
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Ok well I guess its not a high school science project. Maybe I'm something like a doctor and owner of a software business. For what this is worth, I've been a serious wildlife photographer/naturalist for 17 years. I'm just new to the idea of videography with improved audio, a very steep learning curve if compressed to a week, as here.
Oh well, pejoratives aside, here are the specs for the mixer. I still appreciate the input :-) from experts in this area, even if it comes with some freshman hazing. Input Connections 4 - 3-pin XLR female Output Connectors 2 - 3-pin XLR male Max Input/Output Gain +55dB Input Impedance: 600 Ohms Output Impedance: XLR 500 Ohms Signal-to-Noise Ratio 84dB Phantom Power +18V DC AC Power Requirements x2 9-Volt Alkaline Batteries Current Draw: 30mA Dimensions 6.3 x 2.3 x 3.7" (160 x 58.41 x 93.98mm) (WxHxD) Weight 1.5 lbs (680.38 g) Regarding field narration, I am looking for that option but don't to do it exclusively. As you suggest, live narration is very tough to do even fairly well, but it is a skill you can build. I have been working at it since starting with the prior HG10 in 2009. Hope that clarifies a bit. Photography in the bush is like hanging paper with one arm (upside-down as my wife says). That is part of the appeal. :-) |
Re: New to external mics
What ...... Phantom power 18volts? NEVER get a mixer that will not give you 48v phantom power other wise it will dramatically limit your choice of usable mics.
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