recording railroad audio??
 

Hi all,
After many years I'm finally stepping up to a "serious" camcorder for my railway adventures..LOL
I'm considering a Sony HXR-NX3 or similar, but the big question is , what is the best way to record train audio trackside? Before I go into the "stickies", here's a few things to help you point me to the right sticky! I will be solo most of the time , so a camera mounted mic will have to be the go. I will be using a tripod most of the time and doing a lot of pan and zoom shots, trains passing etc. I would love to record in stereo , but from what I have read so far, it is hard to do properly and get good results. I also know I will need more than one type of mic in my kit!

Also I'm traveling from Australia to the US in May ( my first time overseas) so I need to be mobile.
Thank you !
Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

If you want a generic stereo camera mic the sony ECM-MS957 is a good choice and as it is an M/S mic you will always have one capsule pointing in the direction of the camera lens, as for stereo it can be very limiting if you are panning the camera around as the image will shift but you could always place the mic on a stand beside you so that the image remains more locked to the camera image.

As others will say trying to get anything decent stereo from a cam mic is nigh on impossible as you will also get all sorts of servo creaks and possibly your own breathing and nose farts.

It would be far better to keep any train effects mono and my recommendation for a generic on camera effects mic would be the AT875r as it is very short but gives a tight focussed sound. You can always add a location stereo ambience without the train in post to give a sense of depth to the video.

Stating the obvious if you are recording trains effects you may have problems if you are trespassing on the railroads land as they will have strict safety standards but I appreciate that this may not be such an issue in Australia, bear in mind though that a place that is available to the public may not possible be defined as a public place and under the control of a private company etc.

If you are planning to do the same in the USA I would be very careful as you may get arrested or deported if you are caught without a permit if one is required there.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Hi Gary,
Thanks for the detailed reply! I have a lot of learning to do before I depart , that's for sure..LOL
I know most people record in mono and add stereo later, but I'm recording loco sounds from trains I've modeled since I was 12, and as you say, getting good stereo from a cam is pretty hard. I also wan't to get a quality sound, so if it means recording good quality in mono , then so be it. I have read about MS mics , so I will look into that further, also the effects mic , as you say is a good idea. I'm assuming a good quality mono mic will be the proper choice.
As for filming in the US, that's good advice on keeping off railway property. I'm actually a Signal electrician for Queensland railways, so I know about security . I'm a member of the "friends of the BNSF railway" in the US, so I will be in contact with them to see where I can film. I watch a lot US rail videos on YT, so I have a fair Idea of how far you need to be away from tracks, but very good advice sir!

I use FCXpress on a Mac, so I have no excuses for getting poor audio mixing..LOL , but it is a new world from my old stereo camcorder ! I have also seen the Rode stereo mic as Brian mentions, but I don't think this will suit me ?
Thanks again for the reply and infomation!
Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

An option to consider is to buy a small recorder to allow field recording with mics that are further form the camcorder.

I bit of Google-ing might turn up what others have used with success.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

What I would do it a combo of the suggested solutions so far, buy a short shotgun to put on the camera and an AT875r is my preference but a rode NTG1/2 is also an option.

Then get a small stereo digital recorder such as the zoom or tascam etc and set it in a static position so you can get a good stereo soundstage relating to the camera position. Just in front on a stand or even mounted on the tripod but in a fixed static position.

Then match the two in the edit with the camera mic central for the best closer effects that will be panned central and add the stereo ambience to suit the picture.

It is sort of an M/S type of thing but using three tracks that are more phase detached and you may get some quite nice interesting effects.

Others will pipe in regarding phase issues but I doubt if that will be a problem as what you are after here is the soundstage and we cheat those all the time in film and TV land, I have even added different train sounds just to confuse the train spotters in some dramas and it all is about getting what suits the picture best not what is happening in real life. ;0)

P.S clap your hands together and shout and ident when the train is coming so you have an audio sync point for the mono and stereo FX.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

I concur with Gary, a short shotgun on the cam and separate stereo recorder (with good Windjammer type windscreens), sync audio in post, mix to taste.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

I'm sure you could also make or buy a sharp-ended mini monopod to hold the stereo recorder separate from the camera tripod. Something like the Twig Pod, or a DIY solution that's simply pointed on the bottom and has a 1/4"-20 threaded stud on the top.

+1 for the AT875 and a furry windscreen if you select a camera with phantom powered XLR connectors.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

A small tripod would work. This is my remote setup for M-S recording with the wind protection removed. The little Manfrotto adapter is real handy. The mics are Rode NT1 and NT2A.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

I think you want a stationery mic so the camera can pan without affecting sound. A Tascam DR-40 gives you built-in stereo mics and will record stereo at two levels. That goves you a safety recording in case the noise of the train blows out the main track. It's light and can mount on anything that has a 1/4-20 thread like a Gorilla pod or even a light stand. Your builtin camera mics can record ambient sound.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

There is an extensive thread on this forum from 2011 about this very issue, with quite a lot of good information: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-thin...ain-audio.html

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Yes Don, I think this may be the way to go!
Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Thanks Gary,
I remember a few years back when I was first looking at cameras, the fellow showing me also said to forget recording stereo with the camera...of course I knew better...LOL. I like the idea of a good shot gun , I have around $400.00 budget , so maybe the AT897 or Senhieser Mke600? , and then a small good quality digital recorder with built in mics? I am doing the US solo and mostly on trains, so I need to be compact. I know about the human clapper board, and you know that's cruel playing with our loco sounds..LOL
Gregg:-)

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Thanks Rick, this looks like the go!
Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Jay , I will spend a bit on the wind protection, most train locations are windy! My Manfrotto has a plastic fitting on the bottom of the center post with a 1/4 thread, this would be perfect?
Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Thank you , searched for mics and other audio , but never thought to try trains!! I will take a look.
Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Hi Les, that sounds exactly what I may need, I will check it out.
Thanks Gregg.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

You wouldn't believe, Scott is one of the guys I'm meeting up with in the States! It is a small world!

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

It may work but be careful of creaky noises from your tripod, it may be better to rig a small clamp to the centre post so you can get some isolation for the stereo recorder or a simple piece of strip metal with some rubber grommets may bolted to the centre post threaded socket may do the trick.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

That's a point Gary! I have a small tripod , about a foot tall , that would do the trick and easy enough to carry.I just looked up the Tascam DR 40 recorder, $250.00 for the one I saw,perfect I think ? Compact and inbuilt mics, all this new stuff for me to learn..LOL

Thanks again mate.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

It actually opens up a lot of thinking like.....
Should the sound be fixed and let the image on the video pan through it or should the sound pan with the video image (a bit like the human head)?
Also should the sound be narrower in width if the camera is zoomed in compared to being on a wide shot?
It's quite a different approach for each method, and a different thought pattern for each.
Broadcasters face this decision daily on some Outside Broadcasts.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

The soundstage should always be a stable as possible and match the picture, that is why it tend to be done in audio post as you can control it better.

A pan may indicate that a train is passing but in reality the image is fixed as the screen you are watching will have it central for the whole of the shot if you pan the audio it may sound strange as the train goes from right to left but remains centrally featured on the screen.

There is also another option available to us in post if you are using certain digital desks such as the AMS Neve DFC or Logic that I helped to design the 90's.

We have an A/B wide control so you can change the width of a stereo signal and move the image from super wide to mono as for example a long lens shot zoom's in. It is done by adjusting the M/S content on an A/B signal and can be very useful for creating surround sound.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Gee Brian, I think I've opened up a can of worms here..LOL it is all very interesting and a lot more complicated than it seems. I did a bit of sound mixing for bands back in the 80's, but I have forgot most of what I learned, and no digital back then! Capturing the best audio I can is the fist thing, then I will play with it in post(is that the right term) when I get back home. So I am looking at either a AT897 or Senhieser MKE-600
shot gun, and a Tascam Dr40 or better for the stereo sound? This hopefully, will give me good audio with portability on my trip.
Gregg:-)

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Gary, you've lost me a little now Sir!! But I do understand where you are coming from and your info has been very helpful, so I will go with your (and others) original idea of a shot gun and field recorder, as I stated to Brian. Do you have a preference for a decent recorder, Tascam ??
Thanks Gregg.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Steam trains are my main video subject, and I've tried a few things over the years to get convincing audio. The set-up I've arrived at is as follows:
I use a short shotgun mic mounted on the camera, so that it's always pointed towards the subject. Most of the time, this gives a good, clear mono sound. The only time it doesn't work so well, is when I'm close to the line (within 50 feet) and let the train run past without panning all the way around. In that case, you can loose some high frequencies as the train goes "off axis", but it doesn't usually matter since most of the sound is low frequency rumble by that time. I use a Rode NTG1 mounted in a Rycote S-series blimp on the shoe-socket. My camera is a Canon XH-A1s (yes, still running HDV tape!) I've stuck with this, in part, because of it's reliable audio ALC (auto-level control) circuits - it doesn't over-amplify when sound levels are low, there's very little hiss, and it doesn't usually "pump" the volume, even when a loco is making a slow, noisy start (WHOOMPF... pause ... WHOOMPF ... pause ...etc.) - at least, not in a distracting way. Reliable ALC is important for a one-man-band. You can't be riding the audio faders while trying to get the picture right. (This is one way that the XH-A1s scores over the equivalent Sony FX1000/Z5, which has rather over-sensitive ALC.)

I chose the NTG1 after comparing it back-to-back with a Sennheiser ME66+K6. Although, through headphones, I could hear that the ME66 was a little better, I couldn't hear the difference through (quite good) TV speakers, and I decided it wasn't worth more than double the cost (in the UK in 2008). The down-sides of the NTG1 are that it's rather prone to wind noise (needs shielding from the back as well as where you'd expect up front) and will only work on cameras or recorders that supply phantom power. If I was buying today, I'd go for the NTG2, since it has the option of battery or phantom power, and so will work with almost any device (if you have the right cable).

I have experimented with adding stereo "ambience" using a separate recorder and a mic on a fixed tripod or pole close to the camera. I've used minidisc in the past, but now I have a Sony PCM-M10 which I use either with a Sony MS957 (as mentioned by Gary earlier) or just its built-in mics. Wind-shielding is important for both these, but you have more flexibility over where you place them, so you can often find a sheltered spot by a wall or a hedge that wouldn't be any good for the camera. The finished effect can work rather well, though it's not straight forward.

However, I don't use stereo regularly. It takes extra time to set up and take down, which can be a problem if you're hurrying to get ahead of the train at its next water stop, and it adds extra complications to the editing process. I struggle to edit even half the stuff I shoot during the year as it is (I do the editing for a couple of friends as well). I have found that, if you're going to do stereo, you need to do it all the time. All mono (if it's otherwise good quality) will sound fine to most viewers. However, add a couple of stereo sequences and they'll stand out, making the rest of the sound-track seem a bit shabby. It's a bit like putting a digital clip in the middle of an analogue video, or running a fine-scale coach in the middle of a ready-to-run HO model train!

BTW, careful about the clapper board & announcement. Make sure the guy beside you isn't rolling when you do it. Mind you, that's nothing compared to the 5 still photographers gossiping away on their aluminium ladders just to your left! ;-)

Follow the link in my signature to see the sort of things I and my pals have produced.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Hello Gregg !! There have been fabulous responses to your question. Since my first question about this in 2011 cited by Battle, I have found that diesel locomotives are very difficult to record up close, especially when working hard, and I still haven't really come to terms with it. I tried some different mics to improve the audio from my AT875r, but even up in the stratospheric range of the Sennheiser 8060 and 416 the booming around 120hz is what dominates. I really like the idea of recording a separate track or tracks with a static omni mic and using a shotgun on the camera and maybe using the shotgun for approach and recede and omni when going past.
I also found that the limiter and ALC on my Canon XF 100 were good but not good enough, so I held my breath and clicked "buy" on a sound devices mix pre d. That alone was the biggest improvement to date. Superb limiters and church- mouse- quiet pre's. But there really is no substitute for learning what distances equate to what sound levels, and setting your recording levels for them. My $.02 only.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Hi Scott,
First of all, do you know what Gregg I am???, or did you work it out straight away? I will email you soon regarding Mullan Pass and my arrival dates...yes "that " Gregg..LOL I have read your entire post from 2011, couldn't believe my eyes when I read the name, what a small world! Yes , it is an interesting subject and I had no idea how much is involved, but I'm very grateful for all the inputs and ideas. I have read so much in the last week , amps , filters and so on, my heads about full..LOL But since I don;t want to fill your car up with camera gear, I have to keep it small, but as effective as I can. So I think I'll go with a Senheiser MKE-600
and maybe a Tascam DR44wl recorder, with the Hxr-NX3. I'm not decided on the Tascam , yet , so maybe some will offer another choice?
Anyway , thanks for dropping by and I will email you shortly!

Cheers Gregg.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Hi Mark,
Interesting story, steam is really alive in the UK , which is great! This a step up on video and audio for me, but I'm excited to get my teeth into it. I try not to chase trains, so much, more like I set up in a place and stay for a while...a long while down here as there's a long wait between trains! So having a recorder on a small tripod, or on the ground? will be easy enough for me, as long as I don't forget it! I will be mindful of my "clapper" noise, but I concur with your dig at Still snappers making noises..LOL
As for fine scale models, I model HO present day US, and the new fine scale freight cars are fantastic, but you have to be careful handling them as the details are so fine!
Thanks for the input, cheers!
Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

I find on-camera mics pic up too much extraneous noise, so I've taken to just using a small fishpole and blimp for wind protection. There's always some way of propping it up away from the camera.

The first pic at the bottom shows the setup that I use now, sometimes with an additional audio recorder or another remote cabled or radio mic. The Rode NTG-3 in the blimp is a big step up in audio quality from the NTG-2 I used before, and seems imperious to weather (I've had a few strange noises, quiet but audible, from non-RF biased mics in damp weather).

The second pic shows the blimp (almost) hidden in a station shelter for the video below. The audio was recorded in mono from near the bridge as well as at the station.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Nice clips there Colin, reminds me of a Michael Portillo railway adventure episode!! Nice audio, I almost got a NTG-3 , but settled on a Mke-600, see how that goes? Also I bought a Zoom H5 recorder to get stereo as well. All new to me , so we'll see how it goes, I have to get it sorted soon as I leave for the US in May.

Thanks for the input, cheers,
Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

FWIW, I recorded this (1948 Greenbrier 4-8-4 monster locomotive) steam train on an excursion run back in 1996 or 97, using a three-mic array.
Locomotive, photo links and recording details are there as well.
Freesound.org - "Steam_Train.wav" by knufds

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

That does sound good Rick! Back in my sound days, we used SM57's for just about everything, they seemed a great all round mic.Thanks for the reply, hope I get some nice recordings on my visit.Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

That does sound good Rick! Back in my sound days, we used SM57's for just about everything, they seemed a great all round mic.Thanks for the reply, hope I get some nice recordings on my visit.Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Just to share a bit of my own experience with recording trains, here are a few points you may find of interest.
Firstly I wouldn't attempt to record any sort of "quality" audio with a mic mounted to a camera. If you are operating a camera and also the audio recording, then mount the mic or mics on a stand.
If possible also try to use a separate audio recorder with XLR inputs rather than a camera's mini jack inputs.

As far as mics go, a shotgun mic old be fine for certain types of sound gathering, but the pattern may be too narrow to get a good overview of the sound of the train. A hyper-cardioid pattern mic would give a slightly wider and possibly more natural sound if you a re only going for mono. For a stereo sound I would recommend using a pair of cardioid micas mounted on a bar in an X-Y pattern. If you want to get the sounds of surrounds with people and other incidental sounds then you might even want to consider omni mics. It could be beneficial to invest in a pair of small diaphragm condenser mics with interchangeable screw-on capsules. For example, the Oktava MK012 has hyper cardioid, cardioid and omni capsules and also a -20 db pad attachment that screw on and off the body. NO shotgun is available for them though.
AS far as a recorder goes, when if you can get one ( for example Marantz PMD661) that allows you to record in dual mono mode, where one channel records at -20 dB below the other channel it can save your bacon at times. With trains it can be amazing how loud they can get really quickly, and if you are unprepared they can overshoot and clip. Having the backup audio at a lower level can save you at those times.

For more general info on getting a good audio sound for video, you may find the following tutorial to be helpful:

Sound For Film and Video: The Importance of Getting Good Audio

Sound For Film and Video: The Importance of Getting Good Audio | Rocksure Soundz

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

"For example, the Oktava MK012 has hyper cardioid, cardioid and omni capsules and also a -20 db pad attachment that screw on and off the body."
Not to nit pic, but the Oktava 012's screw-on pad is 10dB. In addition, the 012 is infamous for wind and handling noise, so Zeppelin style wind protection would be needed, preferably with a shock mount. Though some 012s can sound decent, it's not a good mic for outdoors, especially with the card capsules.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Yes you are right..I meant -10..not sure why I never noticed I had written that wrongly. As for wind protection...well that should go without saying regardless of what mic is used! A shockmount should be mandatory for anything hand-held, and is also beneficial too for stand-mounted mics. I have gotten some very good outdoor recordings with those Oktavas. Most of the time using the hypercardioid capsule.

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Thanks Tony, I wish I could carry more gear, but I will be on foot and public transport for most of the trip, so a compromise is in order. I've looked at many shotguns and read heaps of reviews (totally confused now) and I've opted for a Senheiser MKE-600 and wind shield for the camera and a Zoom H5 recorder which will be mounted on a small tripod to catch stereo ambiance? I hope this will be a suitable combination and not too much hassle to set up quickly?

Cheers Gregg

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Remember to bring along a good set of headphones to monitor audio. Any time an external mic is used, a good idea to monitor recording to avoid surprises later.

Thanks

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Thanks Jeff! More stuff to buy..LOL, I assume I plug the headphones into the camera while recording or doing a test shot to get levels?..sorry silly newbie question!
Gregg:-)

Re: recording railroad audio??
 

Not exactly. You use the camera or recorder's meters to set levels. You use headphones to listen for quality, extraneous noises such as an airplane going overhead or noise from a loose cable, and to make sure you're really recording in the first place. Your subjective impression of the levels through the headset really tells you little or nothing about what the actual recording levels are. For example, you could find yourself recording at a lower than optimum level yet at the time it sounds more or less okay because you've cranked the playback volume control full-up.