Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

My wife is looking for a lav for making videos with a consumer camcorder. Yes, I could get her a killer XLR/Phantom lav, give her my juicedLink preamp, and she'd have excellent sound. However, in this case, she'd prefer the simplicity of plug-and-play, er, plug-and-record...

The camcorder is a Canon Vixia HF R400. Regarding external mics, the manual says, "you can use condenser microphones with their own power supply." The mic terminal is a 3.5mm stereo minijack. This implies that the camcorder accepts stereo and does not have even a 1V supply voltage for the mic.

This tells me that a mic like the Rode lavalier or pin mic with 3.5mm adapter is unlikely to work as there is no power for the condenser. (The cost of the Rode is a bit high. I'd like to stay under $150 for this application.)

Canon recommends WM-V1 wireless mic an an accessory. Unfortunately, it's bulky with an integrated mic and transmitter. Personally, I prefer a wire for best quality/price.

The ideal solution would be similar to a VideoMic Pro, but in lav form. It would include a lapel mic, a small preamp/battery module and 3.5mm plug. And it would be priced for the masses.

Any recommendations?

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Jon,

The manual might mean that the camera does not supply +48 VDC phantom for professional condenser mics. It still might supply low-voltage "plug in power" for consumer mics. If you are not 100% certain that the camera does not supply voltage to the mic, you can verify it easily.

You need a solid state voltmeter / multimeter (Harbor Freight $3.99 or better), and very basic skill to use it.

Get an adapter cable with 3.5mm TRS on one end, and either a pair of RCA plugs or a single 3.5mm TRS plug on the other end.

Set the meter to some range around 10 VDC (or higher). Plug the cable into the camera. Hit "record." Connect the negative (black) meter lead to the shield of the RCA or the sleeve of the 3.5mm plug. Use the positive (red) meter lead to probe either the center of each RCA, or else the tip and ring of the 3.5mm plug. If you see some DC there, probably 1.5 V or more, then there's your "plug in power." If you see very close to zero volts, then indeed the camera does NOT supply any power.

The next question: what do you mean by "budget"? I have seen some extremely inexpensive lavs that had their own battery supply.

But before we talk about specific mics, do you want to verify the power issue?

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

You will laugh at the price, you will probably sneer at the price, couldn't possibly be any good. Ha. Have one with my digital recorder, use it on my dslr, and think it's worth way more than it looks like:

Audio-Technica ATR-3350 | B&H Photo Video

Just don't install the battery backward, which is easy to do. It will work, badly, and people think it's broken when all that happens is the battery is in wrong. And don't plug it into phantom power accidentally (if you use a miniplug to xlr adapter at any time). Don't ask me how I know this.....

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

The various Rode VideoMic's are great. I own the original VideoMic and also the VideoMic Pro. I actually like the original better although it is a bit bulkier. They do an amazing job. I used them in Wedding Videography for about five years. I also used a Rode NTG-2 but that is out of the price range you gave and would be rather large for a consumer camera.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Buddy of mine who works with high schoolers is buying these by the dozen for use with cameras like yours...

http://smile.amazon.com/Neewer-3-5mm...dp/B005DJOIHE/

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I don't see any integral battery pack for that mic. Description seems to indicate that it needs DC from the computer in order to operate the FET.

So unless the OP determines that his camera does provide "plug in power" after all, this won't work for him.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I agree with Battle Vaughn. That inexpensive, self-powered Audio-Technica ATR-3350 will likely go a good job for your wife. Microphones don't have to cost 100s or 1000s of $€£¥ to do a decent job.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Jon - The ATR-3350 that Mike mentioned seems very interesting, and the fact that the high-school teacher bought a bunch of them may suggest he did his research before selecting it. I did a quick search myself and found this article that does a comparison test: http://www.streamingmedia.com/Producer/Articles/Editorial/Featured-Articles/Wired-Lavaliere-Head-to-Head-Can-a-$20-Audio-Technica-ATR-3350-Compete-with-a-$200-Sony-ECM-44B-96497.aspx

The review is very positive about the audio quality. It comes with a 20-foot cable so that would be very nice for doing a two-person interview (except the cam only has one input - could a splitter be used for the second lav?).

The down-side is the clip design isn't as grippy as one would like (there was a suggestion to a fix for that) and the battery is a 1.5v button type so wouldn't last as long as an AA, but on the other hand there is an ON-OFF switch that the more expensive lav comparison didn't have.

Caution: This is for your wife, eh? Ummm.... be careful here. Avoid letting her feel she isn't worth much and you're getting this inexpensive (read: cheap) thing for her while you get all the good stuff. In the words of Battle Vaughn: "Don't ask me how I know this."

Tell her it's going to take some more research but this is a very good stop-gap lav and "let's see how it goes." Hopefully, you can up her game in the AV gear department. The AT sounds really good (bang-for-the-buck) but it'll be important how you play it so be careful.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I have seen mics of this style (~$10 no-power condenser lav mic) work with cameras of this style (~$300 Canon VidCam) without issue. For a $4 solution, I'd give this a try before anything else. My $0.02.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Thanks all for your suggestions.

Greg, I need to get my hands on the camcorder and get the time to do the test. I've got the meter, spare plug on hand. I appreciate the detail you provided as DVInfo readers can benefit.

On one hand, I could go with a powered solution regardless, since the price is reasonable and it would work with most anything. On the other hand, if the camcorder has power, that's one less battery to manage and one less power switch to forget about. I need to do the measurement...

I'm also interested in "common practice" for camcorders with audio mini jacks. After the test, we'll have one data point.

Regarding price, my wife will appreciate a budget solution. Yeah $4 might raise an eyebrow, but if anything, she's more afraid of me spending too much on a solution that's too complicated.

As always, know the requirements of your project - and know your client. :)

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Yes, certainly. Even the cheapest $1 electret microphone will work with most consumer camcoders with 3.5mm mic input jacks. AS LONG AS THE CAMERA PROVIDES PLUG-IN POWER.
If the camera does NOT provide power then those microphones will be deaf as a post.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I will back up this comment, along with the other comment made about this lav. I've used it many times to record outdoor interviews and it did an excellent job. It filters out the wind and crowd / background noise nicely, giving you a nice clear end result.

I'm about to receive my second one this weekend only bec that first one was misplaced.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I have a couple of Radio Shack units, which do have a small inline battery with on/off switch, they work great with any camcorder with the mini-jack input. $27 Model: 33-3013

I also got an extension cable to allow me to back the camera up a bit from talent without stretching cable.

Thanks

Jeff Pulera
Digital Vision

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Better hurry! Radio Shack is going out of business and will disappear in a month or two.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I didn't get a chance to test the camcorder, so I had my wife order the Audio-Technica and a pack of batteries. The camcorder might have 1V power, but with a powered mic, it can work with most anything. It should arrive later today. BTW, she was very happy with the price. It was cheap enough to feel within budget but no so cheap that she felt undervalued. :)

Funny story... she realized that the lav will work great for podcast types of videos, but not for filming groups of people. She wanted to know how to solve that. My answer: use the mic on the camcorder. I've read enough threads on DVInfo of people wanting to have good audio for larger groups, and the expense/manpower needed to do it right. If it were people seated at a conference table, I could recommend a boundary mic, but she envisions it being with multiple kids standing, talking and running around. I don't think she wants a boom operator chasing kids around and being a couple seconds late to each new talker. In fact, she doesn't want a boom operator at all. :)

Sometimes the simplest answer is the most practical, even if the sound is so-so. I'll test the VideoMic Pro and see how that compares to the onboard mic. That's about as far as it needs to go...

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Anyone yave any experince of using the 3350 with a zoom h1?

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Jon - I'm glad to hear the first mic purchase went fine and your budding videographer significant other (wife) liked it. This almost sounds like a major beginning of a new creative interest area. There is so much to learn.

With regard to the VideoMic, I've got the VideoMic Pro model and I've used it a lot for family-type shoots. As a step-up from the on-board camera mic it will be nice. Whether it provides the bang-for-the-buck or not is something that only you two will have to decide but for me, I like it.

The camera you mentioned has no accessory shoe (aka hot shoe) (at least I didn't see one in a search) so there'll be an added expense of something like a flash bracket. If the camera is to be tripod mounted then the bracket will need a way to attach the tripod. Most will have a threaded hole for that.

At the rate you two are going I envision a new camera sometime your future so the VideoMic Pro will be a good way to go. For outside use there is a windscreen available for it that the onboard mic doesn't have. It's a nice mic. Let us know what happens.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I bought one of these last year to use as a backup audio recorder for weddings. I plug this into a Tascam DR-05 and the sound quality is amazing.

Not as good as my Sennheiser G3s , but it is very rich, clear, and robust sounding. I acutally have the previous model which did not have the smartphone part included... it was like $18 in 2014 for the lav. An excellent purchase. Highly recommended.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Hi John,

I've already got a VideoMic Pro (and a bunch of other gear). My wife is in the place where she knows the difference between good and bad video/audio, but she's not a gear head. She wants cheap, easy, and as good as she can get - but she won't tolerate complexity.

Good tip on no shoe. I'll need to see if there is a simple way to bolt one on. Since she'd just plug it in and turn it on and need no crew, I think it would work. But if the quality improvement is slight, no need to bother.

Note that I'm leaving auto-gain on for her. To add headphones and need to monitor levels would definitely cross the complexity barrier.

And there's something to be said for that. Better to capture so-so audio than none at all. With simplicity comes robustness. :)

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I bought one this week to use with an H1 this weekend, on initial test it needed a lot of gain (85+) to get reasonable levels. I'm loaning the kit to a guy for a conference this weekend, will let you know how it performs when I get it back to edit on Monday.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Just got my H1 back after loaning it out for a series of seminars. They used the 3350 with it, in manual mode the H1 needed high levels so I'd set it to auto levels as there were several different speakers who probably couldn't adjust the levels. Listening back to the results it all worked well, levels are peaking slightly but nothing that can't be fixed in the edits, overall for a £22 mic I'm impressed with the sound - does it sound as good as a mic costing 10 times the price? - not sure, but it's done the job, sounds good and the client will be happy.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

A little surprised at the low output level you experienced, as in my Edirol R09 and Tascam DR60D recorders the 3350's output is fairly robust and requires less preamp than my shotgun or any dynamic mike.. Is it possible you had the mike input on the Zoom (which also accepts line level) set to line? Just a thought....

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

No option to switch that I can find in the manual, the socket shows a Mic / Line symbol but no option to switch, plugging in a mic and 'Line' shows on the display. Interestingly the manual states 'plug in power' mic requires 2.5v but the 3350 is only a 1.5 button cell.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

"A little surprised at the low output level you experienced... Is it possible you had the mike input on the Zoom (which also accepts line level) set to line?"
> I don't think it would even register in line mode
> The 3350's stated sensitivity is -54 dB. (average.. if that's @ at 1Pa). Maybe the recorder's mic gain was set to the lowest (if it has that adj,).. or it doesn't have much gain to begin with (usually the case w/ budget preamps) or the sound SPL was low.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

My wife tried the AT3350 today. The first thing that happened after she took it out of the package was that the clip broke when mounting it to the mic. The plastic snapped in two. The comparison video mentioned that the clip was poor because it slipped. Maybe it's a bit worse than that.

Anyway, she rigged it up with a twist tie and a pin, shot some video, and she was happy with the result. (I haven't heard it yet.) When I asked about quality, she said I should judge. I clarified that I wasn't asking about if the sound was "sweet", but if there were any problems like hum or buzz. She said, "no". It sounded fine to her.

Aside from the fragile clip, it seems we have a winner. :)

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Okay the jury is still out. And my wife has now learned about "EMI".

She had only listened to playback from the camcorder before. After hearing it on her laptop, there was significant 60 Hz buzz. It seems that she allowed the camcorder's power cord to be near the mic cord.

I rescued her work with noise reduction and she's editing it now. Her voice sounds a bit underwater after NR, so I can't really judge the overall quality just yet. Next time she'll take care with the cable run and it should sound much better.

For her application and target audience, the NR'd audio is okay, but her goal is to be able to do this independently. I'm confident that by managing the cable path, the buzz will all but disappear.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I have had 60-cycle hum on camcorders caused by a ground loop between a powered mike and a camcorder running on AC power, if that's any help. Also, PM me, I have a spare clip from my little incident with the phantom power that I mentioned earlier...happy to send it on...

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Agree the clip is 'fragile', the trick is to slide it in - bottom to top, rather than push it into the jaws of the clip.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Did you order the kit that also includes the smartphone adapter? If yes, have you tested the lav with a phone and an app that allows manual audio levels to be set, such as MoviePro?
I'd be interested in your opinion of this for noise level, interference, and sound quality for interview style recording.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

I didn't, it wasn't shown as an option from the company I ordered from. It does work (without turning the mic on) in my iPhone with the default memo app, sound is ok'ish, maybe a dedicated App with different file recording options would sound better than the Apple m4a.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

A ground loop and EMI (electro-magnetic interference) are different. (cause and effect). A 'ground loop' typically has a primary 60Hz hum (in the US) with some lower volume harmonics. EMI is usually a broadband buzzing type sound with less content @ 60Hz. A ground loop's 60Hz hum is relatively easy to attenuate via notch filters and/or NR. Not so easy with EMI, which is usually caused by unbalanced audio runs and/or poorly shielded cables in close proximity to power cables and/or transformers. Audio 101: If audio cables have tobe crossed, it should be at right angles.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

As a kid, guitar amps weren't all properly grounded, not having 3-prong plugs. It was really common to have ground loops with LF hum. "Here, hold my guitar..." Zap!

In my wife's case, it was EMI with HF buzzing over 60 Hz. Such is life with a long, unbalanced cable. I'll mention the "right angle" thing to her, but I'll recommend that the "keep 'em separated" thing be the main approach.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Some camcorders are notorious for leaking nasty RFI out of the LCD viewfinder display. IME, the solution was to very carefully experiment and route the audio cable AWAY from the LCD viewfinder screen. or in extreme cases to close the LCD screen and use an external monitor.

And some camcorder "line-lump" mains power bricks are notorious for creating problems exactly like that. In many cases the problem could only be solved by removing the mains power supply completely from the equation and operating on the camera battery.

Of course, this is because audio is always a secondary "feature" that is tacked-on to the design just before it goes to manufacturing. Audio has always been the poor step-child of video production. Which is why it is so common for people to use double-system sound.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

"As a kid, guitar amps weren't all properly grounded, not having 3-prong plugs. It was really common to have ground loops with LF hum. "Here, hold my guitar..." Zap!"
- That and single-coil guitar pick-ups (common to Stratocasters) which were extremely prone to EMI.
When a buddy of mine moved his music recording studio to a new location (and built a new building), he had the entire building wired with a Equi=Tech balanced power system. It was very expensive but, it's a 'world-class' facility and eliminated most of the single-coil pickup EMI issues as well as the push noise floor further down. Prior to that, Strat players were instructed to, "always hold the guitar neck in this direction and don't move"

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Jon:

There are lots of lav clips available on eBay. I like the type that hold the mic in a formed circle made of spring metal ... no plastic. They come in specific sizes so measure your mic with a caliper or micrometer before you start looking.

I have had better luck getting rid of buzz with a two-part procedure.

First I look at the spectrum and identify the strongest harmonics (usually the lowest frequencies). I carefully remove (or at least lower) those with notch filters. The first few, at least, are below any important vocal content, so there's no adverse effect on the desired audio.

After that, I take a noise sample, and use adaptive filtering in the usual way. (As with any noise, this sometimes works best with two light passes, rather than one heavy pass.)

I find that if the adaptive filter doesn't have to "work hard" on the strongest lowest frequencies, it can have a much better result -- with less artifacts -- on the higher frequencies.

If that isn't good enough, there's an even more complex approach, but with a few more steps.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Thanks Greg,

That's quite helpful. Years ago, my son and his freinds shot a hilarious scene with great timing - and with an unbalanced cable near an AC cord. I rescued it but the sound wasn't great. As the composer, it meant wall-to-wall music to cover up the noise. With notches at 60, 120, 180, etc before doing the NR passes, I wonder if the results would have been good enough to not need music as a distraction.

Not long afterwards, he bought an M-Audio Microtrack II, which included phantom power and balanced input. It was great in theory and stunk in practice! The preamps were so poor that the hiss was nearly as bad as the AC buzz! (The amateur boom operator not being aggressive enough with getting the boom close didn't help.) I spent hours with NR and we still had to be really aggressive with sound design and music to get a good result. Spend too little money and you'll spend a lot of time!

Fortunately, my wife's project is more of a vlog. With a close lav, AC buzz, and simple aggressive NR, it's not pro, but it's better than most of the distant/cheap mic audio of its peers. With good cable path management, she'll be golden. :)

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

If you need a long cable run, you could always try an inline transformer like this one located near the mic power module. Hosa XLR Male Lo Z to 1 4" TS Female Hi Z Microphone Input Impedance Transformer | eBay

In fact you could dramatically shorten the cable between the power module and the unbalanced male plug.

Of course there's a tradeoff. The transformer impedance is 50k ohms :: 200 ohms. (It's really designed for a very high impedance mic or perhaps a guitar pickup, not for a low-z unbalanced mic like your lav.) The voltage on the balanced side will be 1/15.8 the voltage on the unbalanced side. That's a voltage drop of 24dB. So while this may eliminate some noise pickup, you may pay for it with low levels at the recorder input, and a resulting higher noise floor from the recorder's mic preamp.

If I happen to spot an unbal :: balanced transformer with a better primary impedance, I'll let you know.

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Updated my email and managed to lock myself out of dvinfo.net for a couple of days. Jon, repeating my offer, I have a spare clip I can send you, email me if you wish....

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

Thanks for the offer, Battle. No need. We rigged up a simple solution that will do the job. :)

On the transformer thing, I guess we could use two - one near the mic and one near the camcorder to go unbalanced -> balanced -> unbalanced, but that violates the simplicity goal. Hopefully, good routing will do the trick. If not, NR to the rescue!

Re: Good, budget lav for camcorder
 

No Jon, a second transformer won't work.

It would work if the unbalanced side had an impedance that was close to the impedance of the mic and the recorder input.

However, in this case the unbalanced side is 50,000 ohms. If you do the two-transformer configuration you suggest, and if the unbalanced "output" end is not connected to anything, then you would have about the same voltage there that you had at the mic. But your recorder input is probably a lot less than 50,000 ohms. That will load down the 50,000 ohm transformer output, which will result in a lower voltage, and also will have some adverse effect on the frequency response.

And, indeed, it violates the "simplicity principle."

*** Actually, looking back, I see that for some reason I assumed your recorder had a balanced input. I see now that it's a camera with an unbalanced input. So my original suggestion wouldn't really solve the problem. The configuration of the system is determined by the "lowest common denominator" which in this case is the camera's unbalanced input. So even if you used that transformer, the wiring from the transformer to the camera would still be unbalanced. :-(

And indeed, as I said above, the two-transformer scenario would work except that the impedance is drastically wrong. Transformers are wonderful devices and have a lot of uses, but unfortunately one cannot ignore impedances. The way to make the long cable run balanced would require a correct transformer at each end, and that would start getting too complicated for your wife\'s situation.