Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment

Rick Reineke · June 18th, 2015, 09:35 AM

The Schoeps CMIT5U shotgun has about the best filters and off-axis noise cancelling. However it ain't magic.. especially camera mounted. It's not exactly low cost either, but networks have deep pockets.

Andrew Smith · June 19th, 2015, 06:31 AM

Hi Paul,

Perhaps post-processing might be the best option? I had a bit of a quick goof around with Izotope RX4 to reduce the background noise but keep the vocals ... hopefully giving them more legibility.

(video unlisted on YouTube to protect your footage)

Andrew

Paul Anderegg · June 19th, 2015, 08:05 AM

Yeah, I use bass treble modification, as well as FCP X background noise filter. That robotic effect can get really bad. When you have a whooshing freeway or fire engines, it can clip so bad it sounds like a horrible bluetooth noise cancelation, lots of metallic ringing!

Better audio in, better audio out! :)

Tom Gresham · June 23rd, 2015, 03:56 PM

Best accessory for getting better audio from a camera-mounted mic . . .

A wide-angle lens or adapter. Then get as close as possible.

(Shrug)

Paul Anderegg · June 23rd, 2015, 09:22 PM

Haha, I agree. My last camera was a Sony PXW-X180, with a 26mm equiv lens. I also had a 16x9 EXII 0.75x wide adaptor for that camera! Problem was, the damn camera had a 3 foot minimum focusing distance.

Again, the most damning thing I have to contend with is idling police cars next to me, off to the sides, which sends a rumbling whoosh into my current AG-MC8700P short shotgun.

Paul

Jim Michael · June 24th, 2015, 04:28 AM

I will be very interested in hearing whether you are successful with this. Please post an update.

Paul Anderegg · June 24th, 2015, 04:52 AM

I just snagged a CS3e on eBay for $1000. I plan to do some testing by strapping a Rode NTG2 on top of it with rubber bands, and running each mic to a separate channel. Best way of testing how much better the Sanken is vs a well respected budget shotgun!

Paul

Paul Anderegg · June 30th, 2015, 05:52 AM

Tests will have to wait, the CS3e I received is defective, has a crackling audio buzz. SOOOOO disappointed. :(

Paul

Paul Anderegg · July 3rd, 2015, 02:55 AM

First night with my CS3e, this is a clip of specifically what I got the microphone for, picking out voice audio at a distance with background noise. This was shot with reference level -60db, and the record level turned all the way up to 10 on my XDCAM. That is how clean the mic is pumped to the highest levels I can crank in camera. The audio has not had levels adjusted or any other modifications done to it. It cleans up very well in post. Can anyone recommend a good hiss reducer filter for FCP X?

Like the dude said in Back To The Future, "Now listen to this!".

Paul Anderegg · July 3rd, 2015, 03:02 AM

Oh yeah, I mounted the microphone with the back 1/3 of the slots wrapped by the mic holder, covered completely, still works well. :)

Paul

Rick Reineke · July 3rd, 2015, 10:59 AM

"Can anyone recommend a good hiss reducer filter for FCP X"
- Aside from the usual EQ/LP filter, roll off above 8kHz, I think iZotope RX (standard & advanced) can be used in a 'stand-alone' config., if FCP-X does not support VST audio plug-ins.

Paul Anderegg · July 13th, 2015, 03:13 AM

Well, I gave the CS3e a few weeks to show what it had, and it showed it is NOT well suited for my application. It performs no better or worse than the stock short shotgun I was using, or an NTG2, when used around idling cars or high noise environments. On a quite or low noise street, it can really pull vocals from a distance better, but add a little rumble in ANY direction, and it covers those pretty noises.

The CS3e has really good quality, every little clink or high tones sound comes across beautifully. A clink at 50 feet is a clink, not a clunk or a clomp. Off axis bass response is, well, it is similar to having two microphones feeding the same line. The CS3e is like a bass cardoid with a treble hypercardoid.

Since this is pretty much the best available, and adds a huge shadow to the lower right corner of everything I shoot, I will probably be selling it off on eBay and sticking with the much more ergonomically effective super short shotgun. I don't think I really ever figured out how to set the camera input level for this mic. Whatever level I set, when someone would talk with a constant background noise, I would never see the VU poke up any on their voice, even when the mic was less than a meter from their mouth hole. Hard to determine audio levels when you just have a steady db level on the meter while the persons voice is booming at the mic.

Paul

Steve House · July 13th, 2015, 05:54 AM

Remember that if the interfering noises originate from behind the subject of interest, they are just as much inside the max pickup zone of the mic as is the voice you're trying to capture. If that firetruck is 90 degrees off to the side, a good directional mic like the CS3 might help but if the subject is standing beside the truck nothing other than tight proximity is going to separate the voice from the engine noise. Another factor, the side rejection of a 'gun is frequency dependent - quite directional at voice frequencies but becoming almost omnidirectional at low frequencies.

Jon Fairhurst · July 13th, 2015, 10:46 AM

In my limited experience, the CS3e really shows its worth in boomy environments. Most shotguns are HF lobars and LF omnis, so all of the "boom" comes through - in fact a shotgun can be a "boom amplifier" as ambient noise turns into LF mud. As you mentioned, the CS3e is more like a LF cardiod, so it rejects the off axis bass to a good degree. So while off axis noise isn't eliminated, at least it falls off in a natural way.

When shooting outdoors, there's little bass buildup, so most any shotgun will do. (Of course, a bad shotgun could have a crummy frequency response, high noise, and low output but those are different topics.) Where the CS3e would shine is if you arrive at an event in a parking garage or a narrow alley. If those are likely events, you might do some additional testing before selling on ebay. But if you'll be in open areas more than nine of ten times, the advantages of the CS3e won't come into play.

How about this parabolic mic? ;)
http://www.portension.com/uploads/Im...man_uplink.jpg

Paul Anderegg · July 13th, 2015, 05:48 PM

Yeah, all my issues are out in the open, with things to the sides and rear making low frequency rumble.

It is obviously a superior mic, no doubt about that. When there is no noise around, voices sound like they were recorded in a studio, and high frequency sounds are so distinct and clear it's uncanny. I have never owned anything other than a stock short shotgun or budget long shotgun, so hearing such clean audio is sorta cool.

I bought a device to add several threaded holes to the top of my handheld cameras handle, and if I can work a way to rear mount the rig so it doesn't protrude into my light, I might keep it. I don't think it will depreciate any while I test it further, the things seem to be holding their prices used.

Paul

Dish network! :-D

June 18th, 2015, 09:35 AM	#31
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment The Schoeps CMIT5U shotgun has about the best filters and off-axis noise cancelling. However it ain't magic.. especially camera mounted. It's not exactly low cost either, but networks have deep pockets.

June 19th, 2015, 06:31 AM	#32
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,015	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Hi Paul, Perhaps post-processing might be the best option? I had a bit of a quick goof around with Izotope RX4 to reduce the background noise but keep the vocals ... hopefully giving them more legibility. YouTube (Short URL) (video unlisted on YouTube to protect your footage) Andrew

June 19th, 2015, 08:05 AM	#33
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Yeah, I use bass treble modification, as well as FCP X background noise filter. That robotic effect can get really bad. When you have a whooshing freeway or fire engines, it can clip so bad it sounds like a horrible bluetooth noise cancelation, lots of metallic ringing! Better audio in, better audio out! :)

June 23rd, 2015, 03:56 PM	#34
Tom Gresham Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Covington, Louisiana Posts: 179	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Best accessory for getting better audio from a camera-mounted mic . . . A wide-angle lens or adapter. Then get as close as possible. (Shrug)

June 23rd, 2015, 09:22 PM	#35
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Haha, I agree. My last camera was a Sony PXW-X180, with a 26mm equiv lens. I also had a 16x9 EXII 0.75x wide adaptor for that camera! Problem was, the damn camera had a 3 foot minimum focusing distance. Again, the most damning thing I have to contend with is idling police cars next to me, off to the sides, which sends a rumbling whoosh into my current AG-MC8700P short shotgun. Paul

June 24th, 2015, 04:28 AM	#36
Jim Michael Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 895	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment I will be very interested in hearing whether you are successful with this. Please post an update.

June 24th, 2015, 04:52 AM	#37
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment I just snagged a CS3e on eBay for $1000. I plan to do some testing by strapping a Rode NTG2 on top of it with rubber bands, and running each mic to a separate channel. Best way of testing how much better the Sanken is vs a well respected budget shotgun! Paul

June 30th, 2015, 05:52 AM	#38
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Tests will have to wait, the CS3e I received is defective, has a crackling audio buzz. SOOOOO disappointed. :( Paul

July 3rd, 2015, 02:55 AM	#39
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment First night with my CS3e, this is a clip of specifically what I got the microphone for, picking out voice audio at a distance with background noise. This was shot with reference level -60db, and the record level turned all the way up to 10 on my XDCAM. That is how clean the mic is pumped to the highest levels I can crank in camera. The audio has not had levels adjusted or any other modifications done to it. It cleans up very well in post. Can anyone recommend a good hiss reducer filter for FCP X? Like the dude said in Back To The Future, "Now listen to this!". YouTube (Short URL)

July 3rd, 2015, 03:02 AM	#40
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Oh yeah, I mounted the microphone with the back 1/3 of the slots wrapped by the mic holder, covered completely, still works well. :) Paul

July 3rd, 2015, 10:59 AM	#41
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,038	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment "Can anyone recommend a good hiss reducer filter for FCP X" - Aside from the usual EQ/LP filter, roll off above 8kHz, I think iZotope RX (standard & advanced) can be used in a 'stand-alone' config., if FCP-X does not support VST audio plug-ins.

July 13th, 2015, 03:13 AM	#42
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Well, I gave the CS3e a few weeks to show what it had, and it showed it is NOT well suited for my application. It performs no better or worse than the stock short shotgun I was using, or an NTG2, when used around idling cars or high noise environments. On a quite or low noise street, it can really pull vocals from a distance better, but add a little rumble in ANY direction, and it covers those pretty noises. The CS3e has really good quality, every little clink or high tones sound comes across beautifully. A clink at 50 feet is a clink, not a clunk or a clomp. Off axis bass response is, well, it is similar to having two microphones feeding the same line. The CS3e is like a bass cardoid with a treble hypercardoid. Since this is pretty much the best available, and adds a huge shadow to the lower right corner of everything I shoot, I will probably be selling it off on eBay and sticking with the much more ergonomically effective super short shotgun. I don't think I really ever figured out how to set the camera input level for this mic. Whatever level I set, when someone would talk with a constant background noise, I would never see the VU poke up any on their voice, even when the mic was less than a meter from their mouth hole. Hard to determine audio levels when you just have a steady db level on the meter while the persons voice is booming at the mic. Paul

July 13th, 2015, 05:54 AM	#43
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Remember that if the interfering noises originate from behind the subject of interest, they are just as much inside the max pickup zone of the mic as is the voice you're trying to capture. If that firetruck is 90 degrees off to the side, a good directional mic like the CS3 might help but if the subject is standing beside the truck nothing other than tight proximity is going to separate the voice from the engine noise. Another factor, the side rejection of a 'gun is frequency dependent - quite directional at voice frequencies but becoming almost omnidirectional at low frequencies. __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

July 13th, 2015, 10:46 AM	#44
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment In my limited experience, the CS3e really shows its worth in boomy environments. Most shotguns are HF lobars and LF omnis, so all of the "boom" comes through - in fact a shotgun can be a "boom amplifier" as ambient noise turns into LF mud. As you mentioned, the CS3e is more like a LF cardiod, so it rejects the off axis bass to a good degree. So while off axis noise isn't eliminated, at least it falls off in a natural way. When shooting outdoors, there's little bass buildup, so most any shotgun will do. (Of course, a bad shotgun could have a crummy frequency response, high noise, and low output but those are different topics.) Where the CS3e would shine is if you arrive at an event in a parking garage or a narrow alley. If those are likely events, you might do some additional testing before selling on ebay. But if you'll be in open areas more than nine of ten times, the advantages of the CS3e won't come into play. How about this parabolic mic? ;) http://www.portension.com/uploads/Im...man_uplink.jpg __________________ Jon Fairhurst

July 13th, 2015, 05:48 PM	#45
Paul Anderegg Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: San Diego, Califonia Posts: 1,559	Re: Need a good shotgun for high noise ENG environment Yeah, all my issues are out in the open, with things to the sides and rear making low frequency rumble. It is obviously a superior mic, no doubt about that. When there is no noise around, voices sound like they were recorded in a studio, and high frequency sounds are so distinct and clear it's uncanny. I have never owned anything other than a stock short shotgun or budget long shotgun, so hearing such clean audio is sorta cool. I bought a device to add several threaded holes to the top of my handheld cameras handle, and if I can work a way to rear mount the rig so it doesn't protrude into my light, I might keep it. I don't think it will depreciate any while I test it further, the things seem to be holding their prices used. Paul Dish network! :-D