|
|||||||||
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
November 26th, 2005, 07:25 AM | #46 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,337
|
That's a very unstable recipe for good sound.
Yes, putting the louder actors further away may help, but................. Good boom work means getting the boom just out of frame, right over (or sometimes under) the actor's head, especially on tight shots. You don't want to hear a lot of room ring if the actor's face is taking up the entire frame. The audio and the picture don't match. You going to be too far away from someone. You have the time. Try it and see. The cameras will be locked down and unattended? So you can't get any closeups. That's a problem. Sounds like you really need them to support the delicacy and intimacy of the topic. Good audio requires the same attention, or it will suffer. They shoot nude scenes with a crew. If you want good sounding footage, I think you need to get over whatever it is that's so sensitive and do it right. You intend to show this to someone, right? Well there goes your secrecy factor. Anyway, how about this. Put a hardwired lav on each person and feed it to a different camera, then sort it all out in post. Get room tone and ambi from each setup because you'll be checkerboarding four audio tracks and they will all sound a bit different. Regards, Ty |
December 11th, 2005, 12:35 AM | #47 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 49
|
Yes Ty, this recipe for sound is unstable, and is getting complex.
Looks like having one mic boomed might not do the job well. Steve, I checked out Ty's mic tutorial. Hearing is believing. Can you take out some of the room ring with some sound blankets on the ceiling, floors, and the walls in back of the cameras? Will a cardioid mic(s) produce more room ring than a hypercadioid mic(s)? As to the "crewless" scenes: 2 cams on a two-shot and 2 cams on a close-up on the two actors. So each actor is in a two-shot and two actors also have a close-up. Ty, there is no secrecy factor, only a method of working with actors and their performance without a cam crew, with the soundman monitoring in the next room. It's been done before. Steve, you said you were curious on what would be acceptable for an audience to hear, but not the crew filming. Me too. I went to go see the low budget DV film ELLIE PARKER starring Naomi Watts and Chevy Chase. Shot with a Sony DCR-PC100 single-chip consumer camera using the camera's mic. The camera was between about 2 and 10 feet away from the actors. This film got a theatrical release with subpar sound, i.e. lots of room ring, hiss, rumble, and dialogue not clear at times. A theatrical release with no professional sound equipment? I'm sure I could get better sound than that using the equipment mentioned in this thread. MULTIPLE MICS + MULTIPLE CAMERAS = MULTIPLE HEADACHES? 4 wireless mics, that sounds great. How do I connect that to a MixPre and the BeachTek attached to the GL2? Monitor all four actors dialogue? Ty, you suggested 4 lavs hardwired to all 4 cams. I'm only using the fourth cam with the "crewless" scenes. What about getting sound for all the other scenes, wireless mics? Man that's a lot of mics. Steve you also mentioned a stereo pair of cardioids aimed left and right. How do stereo mics work with a 2 channel mixer (MixPre), etc.? Gentlemen are wireless lavs the way to go for this entire shoot? P.S. Ty, your Audio Bootcamp Field Guide is rad. The small size is perfect. |
December 11th, 2005, 07:32 AM | #48 | |||
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The MixPre, as its role is focussed more on the preamp function and less on the mixer function, doesn't have a full, continuously variable pan control on each mic input like other mixers might. Instead, each input has a L/C/R pan switch to direct it to either the left or right output or to both equally. For recording in DV that's probably sufficient as you'll most likely dedicate a track to each talent and adjust their levels and stereo position as part of the post-production mixdown. On the set your focus should be on getting the clearest and cleanest audio possible. Adjust it to fit your story requirements at your leisure during post. You can always add reverb and "room ring" if the tone of the scene calls for it, for example, but it's difficult to take it out if your master was recorded with it and you later change your mind.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams! |
|||
December 11th, 2005, 09:15 AM | #49 | |||||||
Inner Circle
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,337
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I said, "No, it's all just sort of sloshing around in my head." She said, "Hmm, a book or something would be useful." I said, "Hmm, I know a writer -- me." Ten months later the first edition came out. I'm now in my third printing (adding to the book as technology changes) and have sold to folks in Australia, Denmark, UK, Switzerland, Fiji, Hong Kong, New Zealand and Italy as well as the US. Borrowing a friend's XL2, I shot the "dining room scene" because I thought it would drive home my points about mic choices. I could write a thousand words about audio, but they wouldn't have the impact of actually being able to hear the difference among the four mics. Recently someone who saw that video clip asked how long it was. I said, "About 12 minutes." They said, "Wow! Didn't seem like it. You used ONE CAMERA ANGLE for 12 minutes and I never got bored." A tribute to the importance of the content..:) Regards, Ty Ford |
|||||||
August 21st, 2006, 04:08 AM | #50 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 49
|
My movie project is on again for the fall.
Same 3 camera's as before: A GL2 with 2 Opturas. w/sound going to the GL2. Steve House, I read a thread that you said you can use 2 Rode NT-3's in a V pattern to cover a somewhat V shaped area. Since my shoot is a documentary/drama with no script. The boom man usually will not know who's going to talk. So I need to cover all actors. My main scene set-up is in the living room where the four actors will be sitting on a L shaped sofa. It seems like 2 mics in a V pattern will work there. Each mike will be on two actors about 3 feet away. Can this work? Will there be any problems in sound quality? |
August 21st, 2006, 05:25 AM | #51 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,337
|
I don't think Steve or anyone can answer that question without question.
What if the room sucks? What if one actor a way louder than the others or way quieter than the others? When you cut corners, you get what you get. Regards, Ty Ford |
August 21st, 2006, 10:12 AM | #52 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
|
Quote:
The NT3 is a hypercardioid pattern - two of them can be setup in what is called a X-Y coincident array to provide stereo coverage of a set but for a number of reasons this is usually a better option for music but is much less effective for dialog. It also presumes a decent acoustic environment. With no script and multiple performers booming is going to hard. You might want to rely on booming multiple mics, one for each performer, multiple mics on fixed booms over the set, plant mics hidden on the set, or lavs on the talent. No matter what, that kind of improvisation on the set is going to be a challenge both for sound and for visual coverage. Since they're on a sofa, a boundary layer mic on the coffee table in front of them or a two fixed booms directly over them, one for each group of two, an NT3 on each boom just out of shot might work
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams! |
|
August 22nd, 2006, 12:39 AM | #53 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 49
|
Ty, you are a hardliner when it comes to sound, I appreciate it.
A $7000 sound package would be great, but unfortunately I have to rip some corners due to budget. As for a sucky room, i am going to sound blanket the S@#! out of the living room and any other locations. Steve, thanks once again for the breakdown. What the heck is a boundry layer mic? (cool name) One boundry layer mic would cover all 4 actors? Or, The NT3's overhead, does it matter if they're close to each other? Where can I buy a double mic overhead boom stand? I know sounds very important, otherwise I wouldn't have asked you guys for your sound sage advice. I would settle for the camera mic which would doom the flick. You got that right Steve this shoot is unique and challenging for both visual and sound coverage (I have the visual expertise, I'm working it out) you guys keep me on my toes with sound, THANKS. ~Lorenzo Last edited by Lorenzo Durand; August 22nd, 2006 at 01:15 AM. |
August 22nd, 2006, 04:29 AM | #54 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,337
|
Hey Lorenzo,
If being a hardliner means knowing something about what works from having a lot of experience in location audio and learning something new everytime I go out, that's me. Although you don't seem to offer the adjective as a compliment, I'll take it as such if I can apply my meaning to it. I thought we were talking about how to mic your scene properly, not how to spend seven grand. You might also consider renting the gear you need for this particular scene. Four lavs and a Shure automixer wouldn't come to much more than two grand, even if you bought them. You could probably rent a Shure automixer for $50 a day, the lavs for $25-$35 each. I have a list of rental facilities in the back of my lilttle book. They'll overnight the stuff to you. So there are two solutions that don't cost anywhere near seven grand. Regards, Ty Ford |
August 22nd, 2006, 04:40 AM | #55 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
|
Quote:
A bounday layer mic resembles a flat plate or puck and is designed to rest on or be fastened to a flat surface such as a wall or table top. It uses the behavior of sound waves and their propagation along a flat plane to channel sounds to its diaphram and achieve its directional character. They're often used in live theatre with several spaced out along the front of a stage as well as conference rooms, etc Here's a discussion about one from AKG http://www.akg-acoustics.com/akg_str...nguage,EN.html You can boom two mics using a couple of extra tall conventional mic stands with arms, one on each side of the set, or you can use two conventional handheld booms and clamp them to a couple of tall light stands with "C" clamps.
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams! Last edited by Steve House; August 22nd, 2006 at 07:53 AM. |
|
August 22nd, 2006, 07:37 AM | #56 |
Fred Retread
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,227
|
If you've made your main equipment choices it's time to experiment a little. At least three factors scream for this. One is that even a discussion of general principles as good as this one can't cover the variations you encounter in the real world. Second is that you don't want to be fumbling when actors are trying to act. And third is that a first hand appreciation of some of the trade-offs can be as important as good equipment and good technique. For example, if pulling the mic back a few feet for better coverage of four people sacrificed 20% of the aural intimacy of closer spacing, would the net effect be to hurt the scene or help it?
__________________
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence..." - Calvin Coolidge "My brain is wired to want to know how other things are wired." - Me Last edited by David Ennis; August 22nd, 2006 at 04:44 PM. |
August 22nd, 2006, 07:50 AM | #57 | |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 5,742
|
Quote:
__________________
Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams! |
|
August 23rd, 2006, 11:57 PM | #58 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 49
|
Ty, what I meant was a compliment, hardliner = one who holds to a firm policy - such as: good equipment+good technique=good results, don't cut corners, etc. No sarcasms from me, just respect. I hold to those values. What's frustrating for me is for this shoot I have to sacrifice all around.
Unfortunately my budget for this shoot has dipped down to $1500.00. Thanks for the rental tips, however renting added up to almost twice my sound budget. Steve, thank you for the answers to my questions. Multiple mics for my situation probably won't do/to complex for my sound man. The boundry mic will pick up sounds from the table (drinks, feet kicking it, etc.). Fred, great tips. I haven't made my mic choice(s) yet, that's what I'm trying to figure out with Steve and Ty's help. It's narrowing down probably to one boomed (stand or not) hypercardioid or cardioid mic. I'd love to experiment once I make that choice. |
August 24th, 2006, 03:51 AM | #59 |
Inner Circle
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Posts: 2,337
|
Lorenzo,
Sorry for the misinterpretation. Words on a screen can so easily be misinterpreted. :) :(. Strap the mics to two light stands and aim them down from above at a distance. Put as many sound blankets, quilts etc andd choose as dead a room as possible. Ty |
October 3rd, 2006, 03:05 AM | #60 |
Regular Crew
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 49
|
Steve,
I might be switching to 3 Panasonic DVX100's. I will go with one mic into an SDMM-1 into the one camera. If I'm feeding the cam with one xlr cable, how can I get an "insurance track" like the GL2 with its stereo input? Is there a such thing as a cable spitter (from 1 to 2 lines) to feed the DVX's XLR inputs? Thanks! ~Lorenzo |
| ||||||
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|