One mic for 3 camera shoot
Hello, I am planning to shoot with 3 cams. (a GL2 and 2 Optura 60's) running a one mic/boomed to the GL2. It's a one location movie (small house and backyard), 80% indoor scenes(no carpet) and 20% in a outdoor garden patio. Most scenes have 4 characters in close proximity.
My questions are: What is the best one mic (indoor/outdoor) for this situation in the $300-$700 and $1000-$1300 range? Can one mic do it or do I need 2 mics- one for indoor and one for outdoor? With one mic boomed to the GL2 what should I use? Which is the best? A mixer or a pre-amp? What brand/model...Sound Design MixPre, Shure FP-24, Behringer, Mackie, Beachtek DXA-6 or 8? Would appreciate some knowledge, thanks. |
A Schoeps cmc641 ($1400), or an Audio Technica 4053a hypercardioid.
Do you want to feed all of the cameras with sound from the same mic? If you plan on doing this for a while, a Sound Devices 302 is a very good place to start. Ty Ford |
Thanks Ty for the mic info.
Should I feed all the cams with one mic or just one cam, whats the best for post-production? You mentioned the Sound Devices 302 mixer. Are you saying the mixers give you better sound than say a pre-amp (Beachtek DXA-8). |
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OK so you then have to sync those cameras up to you main camera audio track. If you had all three cameras aimed at the same thing, you could cut between them more easily if they all had the same good audio. Even two is better than just one. Yes Sound Devices arew better mixers and have better preamps and limiters. At some point you have to move away from bolting something like that to your camera. When the audio device is bolted to the camera, you really can't mix or you'll jar the camera. I'm not certainyou can feed three cameras from a Sound Devices 302. I know I can with the 442. Regards, Ty Ford |
Cool, mixers are the way to go.
Ty, you said a SD442 mixer can go into 3 cams. Since the other SD mixers 302 and the MixPre have 2 XLR outputs also, can they feed 3 cams too? |
I suppose if you feed each camera with only one output. That makes me a little nervous. The MixPre XLR outputs, BTW are line only. The 302 XLR outputs can be adjusted from mic to line.
Regards, Ty Ford |
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I'd be concerned that the audio recorded on the Opturas might be noticably different in character from that on the GL2 due to the audio circuit differences in the two camera models. Be prepared to do some equalization etc in post to get them to intercut seamlessly. Still, as Ty pointed out, that's going to be far less headache than if they were recorded using a hodge-podge of your boom mic and their internal mics, all in their own individual acoustic environments at different distances from the talent. Of course, if you're shooting multicam - say the GL2 recording a MS 2-shot of the talent interacting with the Optura's getting the CUs of the individuals at the same time - using just the track from the GL2 or even an independent audio recorder for double system sound all the way, synching up all three pix in post and intercutting between the several camera's video over the one audio track may be best of all. |
Thanks guys, your'e information is great.
Steve, I like the method you suggest - using 2 channels on cam A (GL2) with a 8dB differential on the channels. The way to get 2 channels on the GL2 is to use the Canon MA300 XLR connector, so I could cable L/R outputs from the mixer to the GL2, right? My budget for cams B and C is $1,800, is there any cameras that would do the job of getting better audio and/or picture than the Optura 60's to use with the A-cam GL2? |
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Are you purchasing your B & C cams? Why not rent or lease a couple more GL2s rather than tieing up capital investing in 2 secondary cams only to have them sitting idle when you're not doing a multicam shoot? |
Steve, after the shoot, the Optura's would be given to the 2 actors/producers who paid for them. "I won't have no cameras idling in my production house."
Which method would be better for sound and post-poduction; a mixer to GL2 or mixer to GL2 + two Opturas 60's? |
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I think I'd focus on getting the highest quality audio on either the GL2 A camera or record to a separate audio recorder. Let the B and C cameras record scratch tracks using their internal mics as refernces to aid sync'ing to the production audio and use a clapboard slate at both the head and tail of every shot. |
Nice filmmaking breakdown.
I will go with the 'mixer to one camera' set-up, it has many positives for my film project. To use 2 channels, one for insurance as you suggested on the GL2 camera A, can I use a MixPre with the two L/R outputs and XLR cable it to a Canon MA300 XLR connector? Or what? Are the MA300 2 channel inputs and the MixPre L/R outputs both line? |
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Do you mean like a piece of cotton?... just joking, would padding be a special cable or device? Or is their a mixer with the price range of a MixPre that has mic/line switchable outputs? Thank you Steve.
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Also make sure of the version of the MixPre you're using. An early version had an impedence balanced output with the entire signal on pin 2 only. A normal balanced pad won't attenuate the signal by the amount indicated on the pad. You also won't get the normal -6db drop if you only use pin 2 with an unbalanced adapter.
The newer versions of the MixPre with a regular balanced output also have a 4-pin power connecter versus the original barrel-type power connector. That's the easiest way to spot the difference. |
How much pad do I need? 10dB, 20dB, 30dB, or ?
Jay, are you saying the newer MixPre's pins allow the pad to function correctly? |
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Steve, thanks for answering the pad question.
The GL2 attentuator is -20dB. I was considering using both channels in the GL2 to have another track for insurance. Using a BeachTek allows only one channel via the mini-plug to the GL2, right? and I still need the mixer. (for the boomed AT4053a) |
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The beachteks have a 2 mic inputs and have one stereo mini-plug for the output, so how can I control the 2nd channel for the "insurance track" on the GL2 or any XLRless camera?
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You could also use 2 parallel XLR cables between the MixPre and the Beach/Camera end, one for each channel and set the Beach to stereo mode. The mic is panned to the centre at the MixPre so the same signal goes down both channels to the camera. Use the same technique for setting levels. |
Your audio wisdom is appreciated.
I was reading Double Spotted Eagle's response in the "another audio question" thread--he stated you don't need a mixer for a one mic shoot. Could I still get good sound using just a beachtek with my boomed AT4053a? |
I overlooked headphone monitoring.
I've read that the GL2's headphone monitoring is weak. If a mixer is not needed, would a good choice be the Sound Devices MM-1 instead of the beachteks? The SD MM-1 seems to have more control for a one mic set up. |
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Both the MixPre and the MM1 provide headphone monitoring to the boom operator. |
So a boomed mic (AT4053a) connecting to the input of the SD MM-1, the SD MM-1's output connects to a BeachTek DXA-4P, it's mini plug to the GL2.
This configuration seems like it will do the job well. Steve, using the GL2's mini-plug allows you only to use the camera's left channel only so how can I use the method you suggested in your reply #22 (Using both channels on the GL2)? Or am I just confused? |
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Thank you much for clearing that up about the beachtek.
Is there a way I can do the "extra track method" (insurance) with the SD MM-1 connected to the beachtek DXA-4 instead of the MixPre? Thanks! |
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Those two features are important, I'll take your audio sage advice and go with the MixPre instead of the MM-1.
Steve, you've broke-down my questions, gave great tips and saved me a lot of headaches. I'm going to put your name in my movie credits under Audio Consultant, unless you prefer a different title. Since I'm using a boomed AT4053a for both indoor and outdoor settings, what should I use for the AT mic outdoors to get good sound? Windshield/blimp, mic techniques, what else? Once again in detail: the outdoor scenes will be shot in a small backyard patio that has a low wooden roof, a concrete floor and lots of plants & shrubs in and surrounding it. The four actors will be sitting very close to each other in a circle. |
Actually on the BeachTek when set to MONO mode you should keep the unused channel set to Maximum, otherwise it does reduce the signal from the single mic. Since it's a passive device, it won't be providing any gain for any interference that might creep in, but the unused control does have an attenuating effect on the mic signal.
It doesn't affect it as much per click stop as the control for the input channel you're plugged into, but it does affect it some. At times I'll use this as a trim control, using a click stop or two on the off side as a finer control than a single click on the used side. It also doesn't seem to change the level in the off-side of the two-channel mono output, it loads both channels down a little. The Line/Mic switch on the off side doesn't seem to provide any change in attenuation though because I believe it's upstream of where the MONO mixing occurs. |
Wow, I bet that's not in the instruction manual.
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urelated suggestions
And I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you can save some time in post if you manually white balance your cameras to a sheet of white paper. (I believe that the Optura has this capacity).
Daniel |
What is the mic distance for optimum sound using the AT4053a on a boom indoors? Is outdoors any different?
Thanks. |
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The difference is you don't want to use a shotgun inside at all unless you're on a set.
To understand why, go to the video folder in my on line archive and download the instructional mp4. See and hear for yourself. Regards, Ty Ford |
Thanks guys.
I would like to shoot some scenes indoors without the boom and camera operator present, only the 4 actors by themselves. Is it possible to mic with the boom set in a position (on a stand/whatever) getting all 4 actors sitting close to each other on a couch? If possible, how close should the actors be? |
If the boom op knows their lines and who's talking next, yes. Otherwise life gets a lot more difficult.
Ty Ford |
Hey Ty am a bit confused by your reply. My question was about shooting a couple of scenes with no boom operator, just the AT4053a. Can I place the mic so that I could get all 4 actors dialogue? They would be sitting in a semi-circle with 1 foot spacing between. Thanks Ty.
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