Live Stream Audio Help at DVinfo.net
DV Info Net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

All Things Audio
Everything Audio, from acquisition to postproduction.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 31st, 2021, 10:18 AM   #1
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 385
Live Stream Audio Help

I run the broadcast for our small church and I am also running the sound for our broadcast.

During the singing portion of the service, I have to turn the audio down on our soundboard so it's not distorted and during the speaking portions, I have to turn it up so the speaker can be heard. This itself is not a big deal, but sometimes during the singing they get very quiet and often during the speaking he can go from quiet to loud very quickly.

Is there something I can do to make sure that I don't have to be constantly changing the audio while also directing camera operators?

The sound board we use doesn't have limiter, but the software we use (vMix) has some audio tools but I'm not sure how they work.

They have a "compressor," which gives me options for "ratio" and "threshold."

It also has an option for "noise gate," which sounds like it could help as well.

Any suggestions would be really great!

Thanks!
Brock Burwell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2021, 10:25 AM   #2
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,005
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

You could buy a quality mixer with analog limiters $500+ depending on how many channels


Since this video was made sound devices has released more affordable mixers with analog limiters, the Mixpre
Pete Cofrancesco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2021, 10:42 AM   #3
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,791
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

A conventional broadcast station uses two devices between the board output and the transmitter input: a compressor followed by a peak limiter. The compressor automatically adjusts gain, rather slowly, to keep the audio levels fairly consistent. The peak limiter than looks for short signal peaks (in the signal coming out of the compressor) and rapidly adjusts them down, to avoid over-modulating the station's audio transmitter.

Some stations use multi-band compressing to achieve a consistent frequency balance between different sources (different records, etc.) but I, personally, would never use that for a church service.

Today you can buy combination compressor/limiters at fairly reasonable price (albeit not the same quality as commercial broadcast units).

Keep in mind that these devices are connected after the output of the mixing board. You still need to make some intelligent decisions about the input gain trim on each of your mic input channels, so that the signal coming out of the board is not distorted. But then the compressor will automatically "ride gain" for you so the signal going out on your stream has a consistent undistorted level.

A noise gate won't help with the situation you describe. If improperly adjusted, it might cause some new problems with the quiet parts of the service.

Of course IMHO an obvious solution would be for you to either direct the cameras, OR run the sound board. Then you need one more person on your crew for the other task. Even if you do this, you could benefit from a compressor and limiter.

What kind of music do you use in the service? Does the preacher always speak from the same pulpit, etc.? Is the musical group located behind the preacher, or in a different part of the room?
Greg Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2021, 09:15 PM   #4
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Helena, MT
Posts: 94
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

I use an ART Pro VLA II compressor after my mix board while doing live symphony broadcast. Couldn't do the job without it. You'll still need to learn how to use a compressor/limiter but it is worth it. j
John Murphy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2021, 09:36 PM   #5
Equal Opportunity Offender
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,052
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

An automatic mixer might be what you are needing.

In the RodeCaster product, you can set it to automatically reduce the mixed input signal levels for when more than one person is speaking (and the output would ordinarily be forced into distortion). The same principle would automatically reduce the volume during the musical parts of the service, solving your issue.

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2021, 10:54 AM   #6
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,420
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

Greg Miller’s comments above match my experience of having worked both in television broadcast and webcasting. I’d emphasize that a compressor and limiter is typically used *in addition* to a live person mixing sound.

There are some significant setup details not addressed in the OP’s post:
Is all sound being captured by a house mic or mics?
Are the speaker and choir/musicians miced separately from each other?
Is there an in-person congregation at this time... who receive amplified sound reinforcement for the speaker? For the choir/musicians? (Aka a house mix *and* a broadcast mix, or, just a broadcast mix?)

For the current mix:
Is this mix monitored and mixing decisions made with meters? With headphones? With speakers? With reference monitors?

And the biggest question:
How’s the sound with the current setup? Is the speaker(s) easily understood? Can people hear the choir/musicians distinctly? Is it something that draws complaints, is this of concern?

These questions are relevant because how you’d approach a better mix, with less hands-on, varies widely on how things are set up and monitored. With independent micing you may get closer to a set and forget setup. A compressor and limiter work best to improve a decent mix. I’ve never heard an automatic mixing system worth a darn for music - aesthetic decisions are made in mixing music. I guess an AI system will be possible, but I’ve not heard it.

OTOH, if one could set up a submix for music, it may be a single adjustment when the music starts.

Lastly, I think of improvements like a compressor/limiter as methods to get 10 or 15% improvements. If your skills, setup, and operation are such that you need a 30 or 50% improvement in the sound you’ll need to focus on the basics.
__________________
30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.
Seth Bloombaum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2021, 10:50 PM   #7
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,791
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

Seth,

Thanks for reinforcing what I said about processing. You went into a lot more detail than I did. All your points are very good ones. Before getting that specific, I wanted some more info from the OP; that's why I asked him some basic questions about the type of service they have.

The main goal of the compressor/limiter is to keep the broadcast signal reasonably loud (to overcome noise that's inherent in the broadcast medium), without exceeding 100% RF modulation (which would have numerous bad consequences). The same type of processing can also help with streaming audio.

Indeed, if set up to do so, the compressor/limiter can squash all the audio to a consistent level, which makes manual gain riding less critical. But if the OP is using more than one mic for the service, and if he's planning to leave all the mics open all the time, the processing can make the level more uniform, but all the [unused] open mics will be picking up various noise. And if the processing is set incorrectly, it can create some unnatural sounding audio.

So I'm still waiting for the OP to answer my questions (and yours, Seth) about their church's service. Then we can make more specific suggestions. Meanwhile, I stand by my original suggestion: add another person to the crew, so the sound operator can concentrate on sound, and someone else can call the camera shots without causing the audio to be ignored.
Greg Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2021, 01:13 AM   #8
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cornsay Durham UK
Posts: 1,992
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

This is quite a common problem when trying to use a PA feed for broadcast or webcasting as the dynamic range can be just too much.

The main problem is that you are mixing to suit the PA and as that tend to have a lot of amplification for speakers at the end of it that needs control for feedback etc it can have way too much dynamic range for a decent feed.

A solution is to put a compressor over the output feeding the broadcast or to create a different aux mix to get more control over the feed. That can also be useful if pre fader of the PA feed so any adjustments done to stop any feedback are not making the feed go lower or higher.

As for a compressor it can help but if the basic levels are all over the place it will not stop any distortion and sometimes splitting mics and creating a bespoke mix just for the webcasting can be the best solution.
__________________
Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/
Gary Nattrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2021, 09:57 PM   #9
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,791
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

Did he say that he's running the PA as well? I only saw him mention "broadcast."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brock Burwell
I run the broadcast for our small church and I am also running the sound for our broadcast.

Last edited by Greg Miller; February 2nd, 2021 at 11:29 PM.
Greg Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2021, 03:32 PM   #10
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cornsay Durham UK
Posts: 1,992
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

No he didn't mention PA but the same audio principle applies of too much dynamic range.

I work in pro broadcast and probably 10db dynamic range is all you tend to need for most things and I have seen numerous attempts at using a PA desk to do a broadcast mix with the same problems.

If it is in a church then I would hazard to guess that a PA system is involved so that the congregation can hear what is going on and would be surprised if a sep bespoke "broadcast" mix is being done?

I have seen all sorts including lav mics taped to speakers to get a "broadcast" feed.
__________________
Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/
Gary Nattrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2021, 04:10 PM   #11
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,791
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

As a comment about the general situation, rather than a specific reply only to the OP's narrow question, I agree with what you said. I was just wondering whether the OP had mentioned PA somewhere and I had missed it ... in which case perhaps we could have given more specific advice.

I've worked in commercial and non-commercial broadcast environments (as well as theatre sound, which doesn't quite apply here). Dynamic range often has been a topic of discussion. Are we mixing for the folks at home listening on their good stereo set, or for someone streaming on computer speakers, or for someone in the car on a noisy roadway.

I personally am aware of a number of classical music broadcast stations whose streams have more than 10dB of dynamic range. I enjoy them at home, but indeed they might have too much range for even a noisy office environment. That's probably a lot more range than the OP needs.

I agree that 10dB range could still allow conveying of the basic intelligibility of everything in the service. If 10dB is the goal, then surely the OP needs a compressor, because he's not going to ride gain to that extent on the preacher's mic, let alone on all the music.

It would be interesting to hear again from the OP as to what sort of service is conducted at his church, how things are miked, etc. Then we might be able to give him more concrete advice. The fact that he hasn't answered any of our questions for the past four days makes me wonder whether he is seriously interested in pursuing this topic here.
Greg Miller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2021, 06:00 PM   #12
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lafayette, Colorado
Posts: 166
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

I would use compression of different types at different stages in the signal path.

For a very basic "broadcast" type of processing, I might have a dbx 166 on the whole mix. It has compression and limiting for general control over the signal going out. I'd probably set the compressor to something in the range of 2:1 to 4:1, and set the threshold so it rarely affects the speaking portions, but clamps down on anything louder. The peak limiter would be the last stage of protection, set to grab the signal just before it can distort the next link in the signal chain.

Then I'd add compressors to each channel, or in some cases submixes.

But compression isn't something you can just do without practice. I'd hesitate to put it in the hands of an operator without the needed experience.

Also, having a separate mix for the broadcast is extremely helpful, but that's another thing that takes practice to get right. And it adds the complicating factor of whether your eq and compression for broadcast works for the room and whether it's shared or independent.
Patrick Tracy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2021, 07:16 PM   #13
Equal Opportunity Offender
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,052
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

Just the realisation (per discussion here) of the greater dynamic range of a PA system makes sense for some of the stuff I have noticed in my time when taking a direct feed.

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2021, 08:55 PM   #14
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 3,005
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

I assume the OP is in a solo type of situation, has a limited budget and wants to piece of equipment to do the job of a person.

Whether he's operating a camera or video mixing/stream the service, the first step is monitor the audio mix with headphones and adjust the gain/trim/mute when necessary. Compressor and limiters are not meant to be a substitute for setting gain. I get the appeal of an automated solution.
Pete Cofrancesco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2021, 09:20 PM   #15
Equal Opportunity Offender
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 3,052
Re: Live Stream Audio Help

I would submit that anyone running a business wants a piece of equipment that will do the job of a person. You only pay for the equipment once and it's usually very reliable.

Andrew
Andrew Smith is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY USA

Scan Computers Int. Ltd.
+44 0871-472-4747
Bolton, Lancashire UK


DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > All Things Audio

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:29 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2024 The Digital Video Information Network