zoom h4
 

Yeah, I have heard of folks getting those beeps....I have not heard them; how did you do your benchmarks??? I was also doing the XY thing with Oktava MK012s....

Steve, as I think about it I need to do more testing. I was listening to record and playback from the line output and into my monitor mix system, which is a Mackie 1202 and Genelec 1029/1091 monitors.

I established a recording level from a tv, which was recorded acoustically with the built-in mics, peaking about -6db. Then I turned the TV off, leaving a fairly quiet room, recording at the same level. On playback, I set the monitoring level to a reasonable gain for the tv sound. I could hear the beeps easily in the quiet sections, they were totally masked by the tv sound.

I tested in all recording modes, the frequency of the beeps was different for 16 bit than 24 bit.

What I haven't done is turn off the limiter, which I later realized was on for all the tests, I haven't tested from the external inputs, and I haven't pulled the recorded file into an audio editor for playback. When I pull the files into the editor I'll see how much a narrow notch filter might do... because the beeps might well be simple sine waves. More testing tomorrow.

This would only be of issue in quiet locations, as it is masked by a fairly low level of sound... I guess I need to test that too, figure out how much it takes to mask it.

Zoom H4
 

I ran some benchmarks last night....I do not have Genelecs, but had to make do with my little M-Audio powered monitors fed by my computer....my tests were only for 44/16 and all the mp3 modes...I wil do the rest of the waves next week when I get my other 24/96 interface back, but in the meantime:
I tested my voice peaking at about -8, more or less...the H4 was set up FIRST with compressor on, auto gain on, and mic modeler set to U87...
I used the built-in XY mics for these tests....
...I wanted to make the test as noisy as possible with tons of ambience from a dead quite room...the ambience was peaking at about -28 and plenty loud enought to hear quite clearly....I monitored playback at full volume, way louder than normal for me....
In my tests I heard NO beeping at all....

I DID hear what I believe are digital artifacts resulting from the Zoom chip trying to compress the continuous background ambience of a dead quite room(speculation). At higer rates the ambience sounded just like hiss(white noise??)
The Artifacting occured at:
MP3 - VBR
and all MP3 rates 64 KBPS and lower
I could not detect this artifacting at 128 or higher AT ALL, with background ambience sounding like undistorted hiss.

The artifact sounded like white noise put thru a flanger and was pretty apparent. I also just barely detected some warbling, constant with some fluctuation in tonality buried in the flanging hiss. My playback loudness was set to 100%, on both the computer and the speakers...LOUD.

I ran a second battery of tests set up like this:
level set ALL the way up
auto gain off
modeler off
limiter and comp off
My voice peaking at about -8
at this setting the ambience of a dead quite room did not get a rise at all on the meter.
Playback was pristine at all rates EXCEPT 64 and lower, which demonstrated some warbling of my voice, typical of recording at very low rates...sounding like your typical streaming IP audio.....there was litte to no discernible background noise even cranked all the way up.....I ran this test at 44/16 and all the MP3 rates...again, I can not test 96/24 at this time, but tested all the other rates.
I DID power the device with the a/c adapter during these tests.
Oh, I did flash upgrade the Zoom os to 1.10 before running these tests...
No doubt your Genelecs are a much higher resolution than my M-Audio monitors, with way more power....

Zoom H4
 

OK, just so I could get a quick listen, I just plugged the output Of the Zoom right into my M-audio powered speaker to check playback of all of the Wave 's...I did not get any beeps on playback..this is how I tested:
44/16
48/16
96/16
96/24

First batch of tests :
my voice at -8 peaks with dead quiet room ambience
comp on, auto gain on, U87 modeler on

second baTCH:
my voice at -8 peaks with dead quiet room ambience
comp off, limiter off, auto gain off, modeler off
manual Levels set to MAX

I never heard any beeping, with volume set loud enuf to wake my dead grannie......
only noise I have gotten so far was the artifacting I mentioned in my previous posting....FWIW...still want to run a synch test with my camera....

Hi Guys.

There is much talk of the beeping issue in this forum thread:
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/sh...ound - Zoom H4

You'll need some patience as it (the thread) gets a bit out of hand for a time but I can summarise...

The concensus is that the beeps occur only when using batteries and at all sample rates except for 24/96 - It may still occur at this setting but no-one can hear it. The beeps apparently coincide with the blinking of the Access LED while in record and Zoom have apparently acknowledged this as a minor fault but no word yet of a fix.

I don't own one (yet) so can't attest to any of this but it appears most users are reporting the problem, though to those recording mostly loud sources (music etc.) it doesn't really present a problem. I also felt when listening to someone's audio files of 'silence' that the beeps were at a level low enough that the pre-amp noise was almost as much of a problem.

So recording at 24/96 or using a power supply/external battery pack could resolve the problem and judging by the widespread reaction I would like to think Zoom will act accordingly and find a fix for this soon.

Regards

Colin

Zoom H4
 

well, damn, I MUST be doing something wrong, because I just have not been able to make this thing beep or whine.....I appreciate the last posting...I went to the thread and did some reading.....apparerently people are getting this problem when running on Batts....so I ran my previous tests again...this time on battery power, and I still cannot hear any beeps or whines....how far down into the noise floor is this beep?? I have ambience peaking at about-30 and I cant hear anything but room tone, and I have my powered speakers totally cranked...I tested at all wave resolutions and cant hear any beeps or whines......any hot tips on how I can make this thing screw up?? Is virtually EVERYONE getting this flaw???

Interesting thread over at soundonsound. It addresses the beeps starting about 2 posts from the bottom of page two, and most of page 3.

My favorite quote: 'I believe it is just as valid a use of the H4 to "record butterfly wings flapping at 100 paces" as it is to record a spotty wanker flapping an electric guitar at 6 inches...'

The point in that section of the thread was that some users will run into the beeps and some won't, depending on what they're recording.

There is speculation about whether some SD cards are implicated, and some not, and apparent confirmation that people have the problem on battery power, not ac, and some are going to alternate DC sources for a fix. Reports of no beeps at 24/96, and users will record in 24/96 when recording soft stuff, which makes sense anyways, but shorter record times.

Steve, are you using just AA batts? Did you do a power system for your new audio bag? Me, I'm using my favorite cheap-o AAs from Costco. As I think about it, I'd probably already run a couple hours by the time I tested, which could make a difference too.

Lots of the other discussion at soundonsound revolved around whether the h4 was worth the money, even with the "extra" content added. I say yes, I'm keeping mine. (and will use AC power or 24/96 when it matters, and hope that the problem is addressed in future software upgrades.)

There is a whole zoom forum at http://www.2090.org/zoom/bbs/viewforum.php?f=15

For the record:
Tested with internal mics.
Cheap AA batts.
Kingston 2gb SD cards (a not-bad brand...)

Zoom H4
 

Seth....
I did my first test on AC, second set of tests this evening on Battery after reading the SOS thread, just RayO Vac AA's, which is what I usually use, purchased at Target....I get 4 hours out of them, just as claimed....I also went back and played with the gain selector, testing first at low, then mid, then high gain...I have NOT done the benchmarks with external microphones as yet(my audio kit being down in NYC at the moment), but that will be my next test.... am wondering if a flaw in fabrication might account for some folks getting this and others not...in such a small device , tolerances must be exact....a screw up in a suppliers line might create such an inconsistency...OR, I just havent hit the right button yet, and so have not gotten the beep/whine...
AS for an alternate power source in the field IF I do find this problem: I do have lots of NMH-50's...I could get another NP1 cup, but would then need to kick down the voltage to somewhere near the 9V the Zoom likes...I am sure I could cook it at the 14.9 V a freshly charged NMH-50 puts out...
The SD Card I tested on was a 1 GB SanDisk...I have not tested on my 2GB Transcend yet, tho when I first got it I recorded a bunch of out door ambiences ON IT and hear nothing unusuaL......at this point I am going to keep mine as well, since I have yet to find an actual problem (knock on wood)I will be keeping an ear open to see what developes and what Zoom has to say about it......

Just coming back to the SOS thread and just in case you missed it, someone did post a recording of the noise at the bottom of page 2. Again, I'm not sure it's such a major issue as it only appears at maximum gain and the noise from the pre-amps is at around the same level anyway.

C

Zoom H4
 

I went ahead and downloaded the files posted on SOS...I have to say that platyng them on WMP with my soundcard full blast and my speakers all the way up I could not hear anything...SOOOOOO....
loaded them in Vegas and NORMALIZED the tracks...still couldnt haer anything but a bit of constant hiss...so THEN I cranked op the master bus to max AND the channel volume envelope to Max .......AT that POINT i COULD just HEAR A regulaR , , intermittent sort of hiss/pulse...it also appeared on the master bus meters....it was quite difficult to discern from the hiss, but I could just make it out......I dunno, is this REALLY a problem???? I had to take pretty extraordinary measures to just barely hear it.......I am not surprised that I could not detect it on my unit with a room ambience/noise floor of -30.....the original wave form could not even be SEEN on the Vegas time line...just straight lines.....

" I buried paul......I buried paul.....I buried paul............."

I thought it was "Paul is dead... Paul is dead... Paul is dead..."!!!

Per my post above in which I detailed my test procedures, I was able to hear this at normal recording and monitoring levels, but by the time I hit these tests I had at least two hours on AA batteries, which may have been a factor according to various posts on other forums (see links above).

I'd send or post these recordings... but I'm going nutz getting ready to travel with the darn thing Friday. Maybe there will be time Thursday.

Here is the text of a semi-helpful response from Samson tech support:

"There is a pulse very close the noise floor of the H4. To eliminate this pulse, use the AC adapter that is supplied with the H4.

Thank You,
..."

More tech support messages, this one from Zoom in Japan, the actual manufacturer:

First of all, please accept our apologies for the inconvenience. We have figured out that the noise problem is caused by the analog circuit board layout. So, it's not possible to solve by updating the system software. Please be advised further explanations below. 1. S/N ratio of the ZOOM H4 (110dB) is superior to one of the competitor, EDIROL R-09. 2. Noise was available because battery does not apply enough to load change. So noise is disappeared when you use a supplied AC adaptor. 3. Also noise level depends on a SD memory brand, because power consumption is different.

We would appreciate your kind understanding and continuous use of the unit. However in case you are not satisfied, please contact the store where you purchased the product.

Sincerely,
ZOOM Corporation.

This post has been deleted.

Zoom...H4...
 

Maybe I am running the right type of SD card...I did my previous tests on SanDisk 1 GB card...I will run additional tests on the Transcend 150X 2 GB card and will post results...would be great if other users test and post their rfesults as well so we can parse which type of card is best....

Just got it. The 128mb card didn't work, but a replacement 2gb SD card from Ativa seems okay.

The Cubase software is daunting. I finally figured if I opened a new project, I could import a stereo 48khz 16 bit WAV file. I can time stretch it if needed to sync with camcorder footage.

But what I haven't figured out is how I can I combine two channels of a stereo recording into 1 mono track?

Or can I blend two independent channels into a stereo track? I think this is called panning. In other words, if the left channel was voice and the right channel was music, I would want the voice track mixed 70% left 30% right, and the music track mixed 70% right and 30% left. Can the Cubase software suite do this?

Duplicate post with typos <g>

I don't use Cubase but I think it works like most other DAWs such as Vegas, Audition, or Nuendo. Set the pan for each track to centre. Use the channel mixers to adjust levels of each across the timeline. Bringing up the music when the voice is silent and drop it 3dB or so during speeches. If you set the pan's offset like the 70/30 ratio you indicated that will offset the voice to the left and the music to the right in the stereo field which is often disconcerting. IMHO narration and music should be centred. If the music still interferes with understanding the voice after adjusting levels, use the equalizer gently to make a hole in the vocal frequency ranges in the music during speech. If the music is stereo send the music left channel hard left, the music right channel hard right - that's done with by panning each channel separately if the music is recorded as two mono tracks or panning centre if it's recorded as a single stereo track. Set the narration centred equally between left and right.

Incredible advice! Thank you Steve!

These TRS cables your speaking of, are you talking about a balanced 1/4" male stereo plug (3 conductor) or just a standard 1/4" (2 conductor) instrument plug?

I can't seem to find any RCA males to TRS cables anywhere.

re H4
 

TRS are stereo males

Okay, thanks Steve

Just ordered an H4 today.
 

Hoping it arrives Monday.

Does this thing need some kind of "special" SD card? Ativa seems popular, but will SanDisk work, too?


Tom, did your 128mb card get replaced?

Lastly, I agree; Cubase seems mainly for those schooled in sound engineering...which I'm not. (Is me woe? Or is it "Am I woe")?

I'm still learning Audition. Should I just stick w/that?

H4 Line input using TRS cables - Still Confused
 

Hi Steve, sorry I'm still a little confused on this issue, please forgive my amateur questions. I understand that your saying I need to use a TRS (balanced cable) and not a TS cable.

However, I'm trying to figure out what type of cables I would use for the right and left "Record Out " (line out) of a soundboard to the H4. I have 2 male RCA's to male XLR' cables, and using these cables with the H4 would required me to manualy set the input levels. But you are saying that if I use male RCA to TRS cables then the H4 accepts the signal as line in, and I don't have to be concerned with setting the input levels?

I'm having a hard time trying to find RCA males to TRS cables. I did find an RCA to TRS adapeer however.

Also, I've searched the manual and don't see any reference to this issue. Could you direct me to that information please?

Thanks for your help.

It seems that the H4's TRS inputs are padded to line level. Those pads are not available on the XLR inputs. This means that if you really wanted to use the xlr inputs for a true line level signal, you'd need to use external pads to bring it down close to mic level.

Even at line level, you'll be concerned with level setting.

Most feeds that you'll get from a mixer are at a nominal line level. "Nominal" because many live sound mixing engineers, especially the self-taught, especially in smaller venues, do not really care about their mixer putting out that much signal. *Usually*, such an operator will be more concerned about not overdriving the mic preamps, so, the mixer gain will be fairly low, and the gain will be made up by the amplifiers. For better or worse.

What this means to you is that depending on the style of the engineer, you might get anything between line level and 30db down from line level (which is approaching mic level).

If the mixer is indeed putting out line level it is best to adapt from RCA out to TRS. In all likelihood, you can use an ordinary RCA-TS cable, aka. RCA phono to 1/4" (mono). Sorry I'm on the road at this moment, but could easily test this with my H4 tomorrow. This is good for short cable lengths (under 6').

Thanks for the additional info Seth. I have been able to adapt the line level output from a male RCA to a TS, but it appeared that (as you stated) I still needed to monitor and adjust my input levels appropriately.

Steves's initial post had indicated that if one were to use a male RCA to male TSR cable that one wouldn't have to be concerned with monitoring and adjusting the input levels on the H4. At least that's how I understood his statement. So, I was just wanting some clarification on that. I guess I'm having a hard time picturing a male RCA cable (with only 2 conductors) being converted at the other end to a male TRS plug (3 conductors) plus I can't find such a cable from B&H or anywhere else to order it. It would be really cool to connect the output of the DJ's soundboard (i.e. RCA record out) to my H4 and walk away and not have to worry about the input levels the rest of the night.

Steve was talking about a different application with a mixer - he added an H4 to his Signvideo ENG44 mixer, which is a budget field mixer designed for video/film work. In that app, you would send tone from the mixer, probably at 0db on the mixer meters, and set recording level on the H4, probably at -18 or -12db. Then, the engineer no longer touches the recorder - he/she knows that when mixing program to 0 or even +3 peaks on the mixer, they have an established recording level on the H4 that will not be too loud or too quiet.

Steve needed XLR-TRS for the best connectivity, because his mixer was indeed putting out a 3-wire, balanced, line level signal.

The DJ is different. What you'll want to do for H4 levels is to ask the DJ to play his/her loudest song, the loudest they anticipate using it, set the H4 to peak somewhere between -18 and -6db. Sorry that's so unspecific, but the DJ's sense of their loudest may not be what the meter shows as the loudest. And they may turn it up once people are in the room. I'd start at -18 for the first shoot, and see how the levels worked.

I have the ZOOM H4 myself since a couple of months.

The two plugs (TRS and XLR) are going into the same analog circuit.
In order to change the analog signal level there are two sliders (one for each channel) with three mic gain settings: Low-Medium-High.
After that, everything else is done in the digital domain (for example "levels" and "auto levels" in the menus are operating after the A/D converter and are therefor pretty useless).
There is no line-input and you can not circumvent the mic amplifier (you can just reduce the amplification by selecting "Low").

Regarding the SD cards:
No, you don't need special cards in principle.
However the DC/DC converter is a little weak so if you have a very fast SD card with high current demand you will hear the card's access as a blip in your audio file! Using slow cards (with low current demand) and/or the supplied ac-adaptor can reduce or even entirely remove that problem.
So the most simple and cheap SanDisk 2 GB card will do nicely.

Thanks Seth and Martin for the additional explanation.

I have been waiting on my H4 to arrive to do several tests. And I wil also try to get a service manual to see the actual circuit the H4 is implementing.

If it's so, it's a pity the mic and line connectors go to the same place. But the XLR must pass through a balancing input, so it does add some noise too.

The next thing is check if the level setting switching (low-medium-high) is done actively or passively, that is work on the audio chip gain or just attenuate it.