Zoom H4
 

I've just heard that the Zoom H4 has been released. Has anyone got their hands on one yet? If so, I would be very interested in hearing about it before I get one sent to the Middle East. It's an expensive and time consuming business to send things back if they don't work or don't work to spec, or are just rubbish.

Cheers

Ian

Anyone try one of these yet?

question for Zoom H4 owners
 

Have you tried or considered trying to hook up an H4 to your cam and recording straight to tape with the Zoom plugged into the mic/line-in of the cam and thus taking advantage of the H4's built-in mics?

e.g. If this works I could then walk out of a music gig with two recordings: one on miniDV with the help of the H4 mics and one on the H4 itself and not have to worry about synch'ing them in post?

Is something like this possible and/or worthwhile? If so what would I need to make the connection?

Thanks for any help~

Mike

Don't have one (yet) but you can dnl the manual here

http://www.samsontech.com/products/r.../H4_manual.pdf

it's a pretty complex piece of gear, but search the manual for "monitor" - sounds like you can leave the monitor function turned on while recording. Your camera would very likely either need to have a line level input option (headphone output is too hot for mic input) or (second, inferior choice) get a couple of inline attenuators (Radio Shack used to sell a mini plug version that was 30 dB attenuator) and feed the headphone signal into your external mic inputs of the cam.

HTH... Steve

I have had one for about 2 weeks now. I also have an Edirol R-09 and just sold my Microtracks to compare it to.

The built in mics are very good and have gain sensativity options (L/M/H) on the outside of the unit. There are also 2 additional switches for audio gain for both CH1/CH2 if external mics are used.

The preamps in either L or M are petty darn quiet. Noise is noticable at the H setting, but I personally would never be that far away form a subject to ever want to use the H gain setting.

The internal mics acan also be changed (via menu) to take on the characteristics of several well known mics as well (5 in all).

I preffer the internal mics on the H4 over the R-09, due to the fact that you can set the gain levels for sensativity which reduces the noise as well as the fact that the R-09's mics are too omni for my taste and pickup too much ambiant noise.

The dual XLR/1/4 inputs are very quiet, and do supply true 48v phantom as well (24v is also available if needed instead). You set phantom power via the menu (OFF/24v/48v).

Speaking of quiet, the H4 also gives you theoption to turn of the bult in limiters/pre amps to help prevent audio clipping, due to sudden increases in soound level. Althoiuh as we all know, we should be doing a level check before recording to make usre we get the best audio possible.

Also you set your record levels in the menu (not external), this is the only shortcoming of the unit. Level setting for internal mics are dual setting (not independant) and setting external levels are done independantly L/R (not dual control). As I said there is no external level setting capability on the unit, but with the use of the external Gain settings, it might not really be needed. Also if you really are concerned about this then you could leave the level setting menu up while you are recording.

Speaking of recording. You record simply by pushing the record button once (for standby) and again to start recording. To stop recording, simply push record again.

You can set the unit to hold by prssing down on the menu button and hold for a second then the unit "Key Lock" and you can't change sme settings on the unit (like stop recording), press and hold again to release "Key Lock".

If you wanted you can also do audio pass through via the H4's 1/8 Line out port. So you could pass a signal to your camera via the "Line out" of even feed the "Line out" to your wireless to your camera. The "Line out" also seems to be after the H4's pre amps, so the audio signal is pretty quiet. You can also use the "Phono prt" the same way, but the "Line out" port seems quieter to me.

The unit is pretty solidly built with the exception of the menu button, which feels kind of flimsy to me and a bit awkward to move and navigate the menu with.

Anyway, that's my quick review of the unit for you all. All in al it might currently be the best of the small sub $400 recorders aout there and being $100 less than the R-09 (which is still a great unit BTW. Easier to record with, better menu, more external audio control) and Microtrack doesn't hurt either.

MIchael,

THanks for the review of the H4. I use a sound devices mixpre and would like to buy the H4. Is there anyway i can bypass the H4 preamp and just use the recording feature ? How is the H4's analog to digital converter? is it pretty low noise ?

thanks

"Is there anyway I can bypass the H4 preamp and just use the recording feature ?"

You should be able to bypass the Pre's buy leaving them turned off in the menu. but the audio from the balanced ports are pretty quiet so I don't know if the Mix Pre is necessary.
I use a PSC Promix 3 filed mixer for live events (recitals. plays), I take 2-3 inputs, mix down, and feed one channel to a recorder and another to my camera via wireless or cabled. I haven't had the opportunity to try this config with the H4 in the field yet, as I generally use this setup for recital work, not wedding work.

"How is the H4's analog to digital converter? is it pretty low noise?"

I haven't had the opportunity to use the unit as a converter, as I generally don't have much need for that use currently. But I would assume it would be pretty quiet based on the the operation of the unit.

Thanks for all the good info Michael. I was especially glad to hear you describe the audio signal of the H4's line out as "pretty quiet". It definitely sounds like a nice little unit for the price.

And thank you Steve for the manual link--much appreciated!

~Mike

Michael,

When you bypass the on-board Pre amp, Do you have to use XLR or the 1/4 inch jack input ??

I read the entire user manual online but i didnt see where one can bypass the internal recorder's pre amp. Can you confirm this for sure that i can bypass the recorder's internal preamp before i place my order ?

Thanks Again

Zoom H4
 

I am thinking of using the zoom with one of my mixers, and sending it line level, so I can mix with the pots on my board, and just use the H4 instead of a dat....has anybody tried to do that?? I cant find any info about whether this gizmo will take balanced line in from a mixer....it COULD make a nifty addition to my eng kit if it could do that...

Steve the H4 can take either a line or mic feed, via the built in XLR/1/4 Ch1/CH2 inputs on teh bottom of the unit.
When taking a "Line in" feed from a mixer or board, it's best to set the audio gain on the H4 to prefferably L (low) or M (medium).
If you wanted you could either send your mixed audio to one or both channels via XLR. Since you are using a mixer with decent pre amps or limiters (I gather) then clipped audio shouldn't be a problem.

Zoom H-4
 

thanx for the advice...

Zoom H-4
 

thanx for the advice...I just ordered one, they seem to be flying off the shelves...I'll have it by friday, and will use it over the weekend as described with my ENG-44 as a front end, so to speak....I'll let everyone know how it works. In fact, I may post some samples on my website for folks to download....

Zoom H-4
 

Well, the nice folks at Zzounds shipped my H-4 yesterday, and I got it this morning, a full day early....
heres the preliminary results, since I have not gone out and field recorded...but I did want to address the conjecture regarding sending line level audio to this gizmo.

There are input selectors in the menu, basically "input" which is the rear XLR pair , and "MIC" , which is the on board XY stereo pair of microphones. With the input gain set to "L" (for "low", I selected the XLR's as my inputs and sent line level from my ENG-44.....lo and behold, the audio was pretty distorted, even at low levels ( < -24 db).....then I set the ENG-44 to send MIC level, sent tone, and reset my input level on the H-4, turned off tone and sent program (Garbage playing "Special"...yeah , Shirley, you're totally hot)....and there ya go, perfect audio....I recorded the track onto the SD card at 320 KBPS, played it back on my system via my SANDISK reader, and could discern no audible difference from the original track, except a slight lowering on overall loudness.....obviously, my efforts at avoiding over-mod by judiscious setting of tone/levels worked nicely...
so, bottom line, this device does NOT have a TRUE line level in, but rather has a mic level in ONLY ,with varoius ways of setting gain in IE.: h-m-l and manual adjustment of level...this is fine for me, since my mixer has mic/line switchable outputs...for those of you using boards and field mixers that have no such facility, you will have to pad your input...not a big deal really, I got a pair of HOSA variable pads in Boston for $24 , and they can be set to -10/-20/-40, so plenty of pad....you may also wish to note that SENNHEISER engineers claim that all padding should be done right at the recording device's input, to avoid raising the noise floor, so you really should plug the pad right into the H-4 inputs, then cable to that. well, there ya have it...I am going to do some test recordings with my pair if MK012's and then I'll let everyone know how that goes....

Steve,
I'm also considering the H4 - being fed from a Sound Devices 302..
You mentioned that you selected the XLR inputs, and sent line level.. Did you use 1/4" TRS connectors, or XLR connectors..? My understanding was that the inputs could accept either Mic level on the XLRs, or Line level on the 1/4"... is that not the case..?
Thanks. Rgds, Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zoom h4
 

is that so?? well, I used XLR cables....I will try using TRS cables instead, and see if that changes anything.......there is no facility in the menu to change the input to line....I will have more to say in a day or so, I was running some testes today with my Oktavas.....so far, I am pretty impressed with the capabilities of this little gizmo

The unit can take a line in, but -25db can still be a little hot for a line in feed.
I am using a PSC Promix 3 filed mixer and set my line out to -40db and the H4 didn't overload. I tried recording at L and M gain settings on the Ch1/Ch2 inputs, limiter turned on inm menu, and the levels set to max, with pretty good results.
Steve, was the gain set to L/M on the CH1/CH2 setting or the mic gain by accident.
I didn't have time to try out either my matched pair of Rode NT5's or Rode NT3 yet.
I just performed a quick basic test with my AT822 stero mic, recording "Streetcorner Symphony" by Rob Thomas through my M-Audio DX4 speaker.

Zoom H-4
 

wow, I stand corrected!!.....you are quite right, TRS will send line in, the XLR will be mic level....I used XLR out of my mixer sending line out to TRS into the H-4 and the line in is perfect...thanx for the hot tip....all you need is a pair if TRS cables or adapters and youre all set..... I am all the more impressed by this thing now that I know you can send line into it.
Thanx for the hot tip!!....next time I'll have to try reading the user manual.....

Michael, Steve,

When you use the H4 without a mixer, in stereo mode, can you adjust the manual recording volume while recording? (the menu settings from 0-127, not the H-M-L switch). Or, is this a menu operation in which you must stop recording to adjust.

Thanks, Seth

Yes you can adjust the levels in the menu.
When you use the built in stereo mic you can only adjust combined L/R levels.
When you use external XLR or 1/4 inputs, you can only adjust each CH1/CH2 seperately.
The external Gain switches are for quick audio gain settings.

Zoom H4
 

heres are a couple of important notices posted on the Zoom site about the H4:

We are pleased to announce that ZOOM H4 ASIO Driver version 1.0.0.1 has been released. It offers lower latency in recording to a computer-based DAW application like Cubase LE. (download)

""
The following problem has been confirmed on H4 System Version 1.00. :

At recording in MP3 with 256kps or VBR, it contains squeaky noise in the result.

The above problem happens because of software error of MP3 encoder. In case you record in MP3 format, please set bit rate other than 256kbp or VBR. System updater fixing this problem will be released on our website by the end of November.
""

the method for upgrading software for the h4 is described on p 84 of the users manual. hopefully this will be released on time, but I have not noticed any problem so far at the bit rate I have been using....(320)

Zoom H-4
 

OK, for what its worth, here are my quick and dirty assessments for this gizmo, which I have been playing around with since I got it yesterday.

After a bit of wrangling(see previous posts) I did manage to send line into this device, so using the combo plugs with TRS males you can send line in( or mic level with XLRs) into the device.

I did make a few dubs thru my system, basically playing some CD audo and a few other audio files off my computer, thu my monitor system , a Behringer 1604a mixer, line out of the mixer (XLR) to my TRS cable/adapter and into the H-4....I used LOW gain and level set to 100(the default)..the results were essentially perfect, set to MP3 320 KBPS.

That being done I knew I could also send line out of my field mixer...so I went out yesterday and today and just recorded some ambience around the hood....kids getting out of school, at play in the park, traffic and crowds, some birds(most have gotten out of town for the winter), stuff like that....
I used my pair of Oktava MK012's set on a stereo mount on a standard XY pattern for stereo recording, mounted on my boom pole, and cabled into my ENG-44 field mixer.
I had the limiter set on the ENG-44 to kick in at about -2 DB, and I strapped the H-4 to the shoulder strap of the mixer where I could get to it very easily...I also cabled a short 1/8" stereo mini cable to the head out into the return on my mixer so I could to the usual monitoring routine.
Then I just hit the streets and recorded whatever I came across....
Basically, I came back with maybe a total of 50 minutes of audio in about 12-14 clips.....when I wanted to record, I just reached up and armed the record button, then hit it again and I was recording onto the new Transend 2GB 150X card that I had ordered from New Egg....the device never faulted, and every roll and stop and playback worked exactly as it was claimed to in the manual...the device never burped or belched, and was 100% reliable in my tests. PLay back was 100% indistinguishable from what I had been monitoring live...it was so realistic that when I had my sister listened to play back, she claimed to have been made to feel a bit disoriented....now thats what I like to hear!!!

The XY stereo image was very accurate, basically as good as I have heard, and really conveyed the illusion of physical movement.....the Oktavas of course sound rich and detailed, presenting a lot more high end than I really expected...I know there is a pronounced taper starting around 16 KHZ on those mics, but sounds like leaves crumpling underfoot had a ton of high end.

...I did all my recording at 320 in MP3, so I can only expect that the 24/96 waves will be even better....I am sure the quality improvement, however, will be much more noticable with program like music, which is what I really would like to record to further test this item.

The dialog I got was all candid stuff, but it still sounded fat and rich ....distances ranged from 2-8 feet from my subjects, which is of course why I like the MK012...the H-4 reproduced what that mic is capable of very faithfully.
I noticed no hiss, hum, buzz or any other noise, yielding virtually no discernable noise floor. Of couse, thats what should in fact be delivered if the device is giving what Zoom claims, along with use of balanced I/O.

Basically, I feel at this point that Zoom really has delived as promised, along with the VBR bug that I mentioned previously, which I hope will be corrected in a timely manner.

My concern with this device was really very simple: could this gizmo be used as an audio recorder with quality at the level or beyond that of a field DAT recorder, delivering pristine digital audio reliably, and enabling the use of a good mixer as a front end sending line level audio into the device? The answer is yes....but those who look to do audio recording with this device with have a few caveats to deal with......

The most obvious one is the lack of any timing / synch ability IE:...there is no time code in, synch in, word clock in, internal time stamp generator, so synching to a video camera, for instance, will not be doable with this incarnation...for people looking to synch with Hi-def gear that requires tri-level synch...duh, get serious, this thing is $299!!!!!! a synch box alone is $999...
I KNOW there cant be anyone out there who actually was hoping for all that, so I am sure no one will be dissapointed at the news...

So what CAN you do with this device?? well, if youre looking to record live eng audio for web casting or radio, this device is TOTALLY usable., and may even be overkill....
looking to do some live to stero mix recording of music ?? totally doable
Need a backup or two extra channels of audio when covering a live event with a single camera?? sure why not, you can synch it up in post MORE THAN LIKELY...I have not tested for audio drift, so I cannot say for certainty...but for what its worth, some people made a big deal about DV cameras not having audio lock, and I personally have never experienced it , nor do I know of anyone else who has....so whats up with that???

I think the bottom line is that for $299, this device does really what it claims, and in a package about 1/3 the size of a soft cover book...I think thats pretty amazing.....I WAS going to complain that it didnt have a key inhibit....but in fact it does, its right in THE MANUAL......hehe
well, thats all for now...

I just saw this thing in the B&H catalog and started to wonder... All of your reviews confirm it. THIS is what folks with the Canon HV10 and Sony HC1/3 need for audio! I think I will post a link to this thread in the HV10 forum.

Just wanted to point out that there are folks over at taperssection who attest to the H4's ability to recognize 4GB cards.

The specific card they are having success with is the Transcend Ultra Speed 4GB Secure Digital Flash Card, Model TS4GSD150. It does need to be formatted before use.

~M

Could one conceivably use the line output of the Zoom H4 into the mic input of a FX1 or FX7?

tanx
KL

Not directly; typical line out of this and other pro-sumer devices is around -10 dB, while typical mic signals are around -40-60 dB - so the line out would overload pretty much ANY mic input.

About the best you could do is maybe use an inline pad, one for each channel - Radio Shack used to carry one (mini plug in and out) that was 30 dB, if you keep levels out of the Zoom at lower than normal this should make the LEVELS compatible (with 30 dB pads) but may introduce some noise.

What you'd be doing, is amplifying the Zoom's mics up to line level, then attenuating them, then letting the camera's pre-amps amplify them again. So anything less than a perfect preamp would add noise each time the signal is boosted... Steve

H-4
 

Yes, I guess I wasnt clear about that....you can send balanced MIC level into the Zoom VIA XLR cables, and balanced LINE level into the Zoom VIA TRS cables.

Steve, I thought your comments were pretty clear; but Kalunga was asking about using the OUTPUT of the zoom into a mic level input, and I found nothing in the manual (don't own one but am considering it) that shows capability of mic level output, they only mention -10 coming out of the phones/line out jack, and that'll clip any camera's mic input... steve

It would work for the FX1 with the input set to line level. Its in the FX1 menu and I use it all the time.

Ron Evans

Good catch Ron, I'm not familiar with that cam so didn't know it had a choice. Problem solved :=) Steve

I love the symbol for phantom power, in p79 of the manual.

Zoom H4 for Documentary films
 

Thanks Ron and Steve.

I was initially looking for a USB interface with phantom power for recording documentary voice-overs into my computer, but then it occurred to me that with a device such as the Zoom H4 and a lapel mic, I could also get away with a less expensive camera such as the Sony FX1 instead of a Z1, if I could feed the line output into the camera's mic input during interviews (essentially just to sync the audio later).

The thought of having the whole interview on another medium is also useful when you need to move the camera during the interview, not to mention that having access to the audio of the interview immediately on a laptop without having to digitize the video tape is also very handy for transcribing in the field, not to mention that it's multi track function is handy for getting a translating in the field as well.

I've found that in documentary films, having a more expensive camera like a Z1, is really only necessary for its xlr inputs for interviews and that for the most part I don't use all the other image-tweaking functions.

The Zoom H4 would also give the added advantage of being able to capture ambient sound with its built-in stereo mics without having to handle the camera or use video tape, which is a real advantage when you are working alone... all this for the price of a USB interface.

live and learn

Kalunga

Zoom H4
 

Anyone hear about the possibility of using Transcend 4 GB SD cards with the H4???
My Transcend 2 GB 150X card works perfectly, but I hard a rumour that the device can use the 4 GB cards as well.......

Zoom H4
 

I did find THIS comment:
"with 2GB SD cards at $35-40 right now and 4GB cards, which it can use BTW, at $75-80"
here:
http://www.taropatch.net/forum/topic...79&whichpage=2

anyone have any more info about using 4GB cards with the H4??

Zoom H4 w/4GB cards
 

Steve,

There's a good thread over at taperssection with lots of folks talking about their success using Transcend 4GB SD cards with their H4's: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=68423.165

From what I've read one must first format a 4GB card before use in the Zoom, but aside from that you should be all set.

Zoom H4
 

Thanx for the info...the Zoom thread is here, for those who wanna take a peek...you will need to reister to use the board:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...0&goto=newpost

Yes, it seems that the Transcend 4 GB 150X card will work, as long as you format the card in your PC, and NOT in the Zoom...the Zoom wont format a card larger than 2 GB...also, the Zoom wont play back files bigger than 2 GB, but it will record until the card is full, and display the correct time remaining on the card....at least until the software is upgraded, which I hope will be soon....guess I am going to order a 4 GB card and see how it works.....so far, I am having very good results with this thing...

Zoom H4
 

sorry, THIS is the actual link for the thread I was referring to:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=68423.0;all

To answer my own question, yes, you can adjust the record level during recording.

However, you'd better be using external mics, not those that are built in, because any handling at all is picked up quite well by the internal mics.

Yes, I purchased an H4 this afternoon for a job next week, and a quick trip to frys for 2 2gb sd cards and I am VERY impressed with the value of this little box.

Thanks everyone for the detail of your experience on the H4.

Zoom H4
 

Seth;
what sort of job are you doing with the Zoom?? I am curious, since there was a big debate on another thread/s regarding maintaining audio synch when recording audio on an external device for use in post with video.
I have not had a chance to test this with my camera set-up, and would be interested in any experience other users have had....

Steve, I'm going to be touring up the west coast with these people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S45OJnQp6mI as they present the Whirling Dervish ceremony in SF, Berkeley, Ashland, Eugene, Seattle, and finally, Portland, where we will do a 3-cam shoot with HD100s and 24-track audio (yes, Burk is on that shoot).

This is the year-long doc project I might have mentioned to you.

I purchased the h4 for general wild sound at events. In the past, I've used my HHB MDP-500, a truely outstanding minidisc recorder with great preamps & etc. However, the h4 offers the possibility of throwing it in the camera case and pulling it out as needed, careful one-handed operation for pickup audio-only interviews, fast transfers into the computer (the MD is real-time transfer only), and built-in x-y mics (I've been using Oktava MC-012 in ORTF... but still can do that too with the h4).

I'm going to miss those HHB preamps though.

I've synched hour-long takes from MD and DV, Vegas is the best NLE when it comes to fine-sync, as it will go sub-frame, down to sample level. Mostly, I've done it wild, using reference cam audio. I've also had good results with unsynched sound devices 744-T and two Z1s, using time-of-day code for rough synch and reference audio for fine synch. No, that wasn't my 744-T... what a sweet recorder!

I'm hopeful that the h4 timebase is as good... but I haven't tested it yet.

However, I already have buyer's remorse after less than 24 hours of ownership. Benchmarking has shown very low-level beeps being recorded in all modes (system 1.1, hopefully the next system upgrade fixes this)... And, the dealer where I purchased has the Edirol R-4 and R-4 pro, they also offer a great upgrade of all 4 mic preamps for $250!

Even with all this, I think the h4 will serve for all kinds of run and gun, adds significantly to capability without adding much to the load, incredible function for the price, etc.