Bypassing HDV audio

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mack

Carlos, I agree, no need for the camera to be involved. The mix pre can take your mic in and then output directly to the recorder. My opinion however is to incorporate a laptop and a Firebox by Presonus. You probably have a laptop and your NLE probably has all the editing power you need. If not, the Firebox comes with Cubase. You could use the camera mic audio simply for reference and run your mic straight into the firebox and firewire into your editing software where all of your plugins are available to mix with.

I'll beat you to the punch and say you probably don't want to lug the laptop around or worry about power. If that's the case, sorry to waste your time.

Jeff, I do not have... repeat... do not have a laptop!

Another one: if I talk on a cell phone 5 times A YEAR is too much. I don't even know the number!

Those are two sides of technology which haven't reached me yet.

But I can tell you right now what's the weak link in using a laptop or using an on-camera HD (which is also a mini-laptop): the firewire cable.

Until a locking 1394 connection is designed, I don't think I will ever use a laptop or Firestore HD. Locking type, like XLR or similar.

These are supposed to be mobile situations, many hand held or steadi-type shots, with minimum crew. So carrying a laptop around may not be too practical.

[Guy Cochran]

The Edirol R-4 4 channel 40GB portable recorder has a LANC in for controlling Start/Stop. It will start and stop recording each time your HDV camera does.
It does not accept Timecode in, but it allows you to record 4channels of high quality 96kHz frame accurate WAV files all while being very accurate - about 1 frame to nudge and sync it up with your NLE.
Just get ready for sticker shock - about $1200. But hey, check eBay :)

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Guy Cochran

The Edirol R-4 4 channel 40GB portable recorder has a LANC in for controlling Start/Stop. It will start and stop recording each time your HDV camera does.
It does not accept Timecode in, but it allows you to record 4channels of high quality 96kHz frame accurate WAV files all while being very accurate - about 1 frame to nudge and sync it up with your NLE.
Just get ready for sticker shock - about $1200. But hey, check eBay :)

Much better than the R4 is the R4 Pro, with Smpte TC capabilities.

It's what I might invest in if I were to choose a unit you should hang from your shoulder to use, or lay on a table.

Comments have been made on the R4 mic preamps, which seem not to be too good.

But the real good recorders to invest in, if I were to go for the best, are the Sound Devices 702T and 744T.

But this is not my proposal here. A small system, versatile, that should cost around $1,000. If you can think of a better combo than SD Mixpre and the Zoom H4 please let me know.

BTW: IMO eBay it's a good place to buy from if the price you get is at least half than buying new and still has the warranty. Then it's a good deal.

[Jeff Mack]

Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez

Those are two sides of technology which haven't reached me yet.

Hi Carlos,


Just a quick comment. You obviously know what you are doing. I would challenge you to get into the current age of technology. What you are looking for can easily be attained with available hardware these days without the concerns for quality that you have. Not to say quality isn't important - you were very clear on that, but things like firewire cables and laptops are really nothing to worry about if you gave them a chance.

Good luck.

Jeff

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Jeff Mack

Just a quick comment. You obviously know what you are doing. I would challenge you to get into the current age of technology. What you are looking for can easily be attained with available hardware these days without the concerns for quality that you have. Not to say quality isn't important - you were very clear on that, but things like firewire cables and laptops are really nothing to worry about if you gave them a chance.

I do think I am getting into the current age of technology! But that technology also has to be sturdy to face adverse conditions.

Some weeks ago I read a very good article on several Panasonic HVX200 that were being used on a large project, with an enormous flow of video that had to be edited. They had the money to choose between P2 cards and the external HDDs, and the latter proved weak in the 1394 interconnect. So they went only with P2s, tons of them.

Quality concerns have many degrees, and locking interconnects is one of them.

It's quite likely that something more trustworthy comes in that area. Even myself could try a 6-pin/4-pin XLR as a short adaptor for the 1394, but the package with laptop would still be a bit too large.

Don't forget that I am rejecting established recorders, like the Edirol R4 pro, the Tascam HD-P2 and the SD 702T. All because they are larger in size.

Handling audio levels on a computer is not easy either, but of course that might depend on getting used to it.

For this particular job I won't be able to post-produce this audio, so it's not much use coming with routines that are too different from what editors are used to. But I will be trying different aproachings to this matters during this year.


Carlos

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez

I do think I am getting into the current age of technology! But that technology also has to be sturdy to face adverse conditions.

...
For this particular job I won't be able to post-produce this audio, so it's not much use coming with routines that are too different from what editors are used to. But I will be trying different aproachings to this matters during this year.


Carlos

So that gives rise to the question, just what workflow are the editors used to? Some of what you've said sounds like they're prefer the older workflows of ingesting the audio as a playback, even when it was originally recorded on DAT. I'm thinking of those workflows where ingest meant the audio was essentially being re-recorded from the original masters, be they analog or digital, rather than today's simple file copy of the original source files, copying the digital WAV or BWF file onto the editing computer unchanged in a disk to disk file copy operation, perhaps trimming it, and then dropping it into its desired location on the editing timeline.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Steve House

...today's simple file copy of the original source files, copying the digital WAV or BWF file onto the editing computer unchanged in a disk to disk file copy operation, perhaps trimming it, and then dropping it into its desired location on the editing timeline.

The audio recordings will probably be in memory cards, so the sound will be ingested unchanged into the computer. But it will have to be synced somehow to the video cameras, replacing their audio. The camera audio might be used on certain close-ups, mixed with the principal audio.

[Bruce Allen]

TC as well as start / stop info, etc. is also sent on the DV output... if you set your camera to DV downconvert, it would send that info.

Anyone know any kind of DV box that outputs the timecode from a DV signal?

Of course, the makers of Firestore could fix everything by adding:
1. TC out from their hard drive storage
or
2. separate digital in, so you could feed their recorder a digital signal from your high quality pre-amp / DAC chaing
or
3. integrate with Sound Devices 702...

Any thoughts on these? I am in the same position as you guys. Maybe we could pool together get some electronics whiz to make a box that extracts start / stop times and TC from the DV / HDV signal? If ordered 10 boxes at the same time, maybe it could be done cheaply?

Another alternative is to convince the DV Rack people or the programmers of a major NLE to allow for synchronized video and external audio source recording at the same time, using a laptop. As far as I know, Avid Xpress Pro might be able to do this (capture audio via Windows Mixer while capturing video via firewire), but Final Cut Pro and Premiere Pro do not. How about Vegas?

Anyone please email me if there's any way I can help or if there's anything I've missed...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Steve House

Let us all know if you manage to track down a converter that will access the timecode coming from the LANC terminal! I know a number of people have been looking for such a critter for quite some time and they just don't seem to exist.
.

Steve,

A guy here in town has one. Rack mounted and AC powerd.

Ty

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

A guy here in town has one. Rack mounted and AC powerd.

Very practical for location work!... ;)

[Ty Ford]

Most of the location shooting I do is inside and near power. :)
My only hesitation is that sometimes connecting audio andd video produces buzzes and hums due to ground loops.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Most of the location shooting I do is inside and near power. :)
My only hesitation is that sometimes connecting audio andd video produces buzzes and hums due to ground loops.

Regards,

Ty Ford

L0L - should have added "battery powered, similar size and mounting on the camera like a Lockit box"

Basically somerthing that can mount to any camera with a LANC or Composite video terminal and generate TC and/or Wordclock synched to the camera.

Rosendahl used to make LANC to TC/WC converters but they no longer market em. I've heard rumors that Ambient is working on something.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

My only hesitation is that sometimes connecting audio andd video produces buzzes and hums due to ground loops.

Even with isolating transformers?